Author Topic: I just noticed an odd little trick...  (Read 6215 times)

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
I just noticed an odd little trick...
« on: November 26, 2011, 07:32:46 PM »
Alright, I was just reading the Earth Spell feat over again, and...

Well. If you take a gander at the feat:

Quote from: WotC
Earth Spell
[General]

You draw magical power from the earth beneath your feet.

Prerequisite: Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, CON 13, WIS 13

Benefit: As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one. If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on. You cannot gain the benefit of this feat when casting a spell with the air, fire, or water descriptor.

If you look at it, something funny rears its head; namely, the fact that the bold section doesn't actually require the use of Heighten Spell.

It automatically is triggered when you prepare a spell of lower level in a higher level slot.

Congratulations, now ANY METAMAGIC FEAT you use (without mitigation) is also treated as being Heighten Spell+1 and ALSO increases your CL, as well as its normal effects.

I kinda like using Fortify Spell with this; who can say no to a metamagic feat that gives raises the spells CL by 1 per slot level increase (henceforth SLI), the spell's level by SLI+1, and gives a bonus to SR penetration checks equal to 2*SLI?

Another trick is preparing a spell as a Sanctum Spell outside your Sanctum; the spell is counted as a spell of lower level when cast out of a slot of its own level, so it gives a two level increase and a +1 to the CL, for a total boost of +1 spell level and +1 CL for the spell.

Of course, this doesn't actually break the limits on what spell levels you can "Heighten" spells, which is saddening. Still, this does mean that you can abuse Silent Image+Shadowcraft Mage even more now.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 07:37:56 PM »
It's written a bit poorly - I'll grant that - but that period is better parsed semantically as a colon. It's a syntactical deductive structure (i.e. what follows after the period - where the bold starts - is explaining what the "added effect" is).

Again, it is not the best way to write it, but it's easy enough to decipher what's going on from the context. Otherwise you'd just strip the first sentence away and, not only would you not need to use Heighten Spell, you wouldn't need to be on stone or unworked earth.
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 07:39:33 PM »
Alright, I was just reading the Earth Spell feat over again, and...
Keep reading it.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Mooncrow

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 983
  • The man who will be Pirate King
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 07:40:01 PM »
Yeah, have to agree with Childe here.  Reading it as a mistaken punctuation mark seems more reasonable than assuming that they never bothered to tell us what the added effect from Heighten Spell was. 

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 08:22:23 PM »
Hey, I'm not arguing that this is RAI; this is totally RAW.

Besides, read with the period in place (is there an Errata for this? I'm not sure where to find it, and if there is a semicolon there... (which there should be, I agree)) it can be read as that this applies to spells being Heightened, but incidentally also applies to spells being cast out of higher level slots through other means.

The only requirement the feat actually applies is that the caster be on unworked earth, and that the spell cannot have the Air, Fire, or Water descriptors. It does not actually state that Heighten Spell needs to be used; elsewise, it would say 'using the Heighten Spell feat' at some point in the bolded part.

So, I maintain this is a valid ruling by RAW. I totally agree with you in the RAI, however.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline spacemonkey555

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 165
  • \o.O/
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 09:11:52 PM »
The table on page 134 shows rai, and if you're ignoring the intent of the rules, may as well go all the way. The earth and stone requirement only applies to using heighten, the way you're reading it.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 09:33:07 PM »
Except the way that I'm reading it doesn't obviate the need for unworked earth. As I have previously stated.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline caelic

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • fnord
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 09:41:57 PM »
This falls into "Hey, if I deliberately misread this, look at how powerful it is!"  There are two ways to read this:

1. Assume that the second sentence references the first, which provides us with a logical and coherent whole.

2. Assume that the second sentence does not reference the first, in which case the authors simply told us that we can use Heighten Spell to some unspecified added effect and then tossed in an unrelated effect more-or-less at random. 

Deliberately choosing to read one portion in a way that renders the rest of the paragraph nonsensical isn't optimization, IMO; it's willful misinterpretation of the "Let's see if I can talk my DM into believing something I know is wrong!" variety.

Similar logic would indicate that if I use the Trample feat, my mount can make a hoof attack--whether it has hooves or not.  If I'm riding a banana slug, it can still make a hoof attack by RAW.

Or we can apply the barest minim of common sense and say that it makes whatever attack it would make in PLACE of a hoof attack, rather than suddenly sprouting a hoof that deals some unspecified amount of damage.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 09:48:41 PM by caelic »

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 09:55:30 PM »
For extreme simplicity and to reduce wordiness, I've contracted the two sentences to the following:
1) You can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect.
2) The spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher.

What you need for your argument to show is that there is no entailment. There is already clearly implicature, and I will argue that, for a given level of assumption, there is also entailment.

This is my assumption: unless stated otherwise, a feat refers to itself. (To clarify, if a feat provides a dodge bonus to Armor Class, it is referring to Armor Class; if a feat allows you to maximize a spell when using "the feat," it is referring to itself; and so on and so forth with increasingly bad examples of a fairly simple idea.)

If (2) is false, then (1) cannot be true. (1) requires another statement to be true because there is no inherent method to use heighten spell to greater effect.
So (1) & ~(2) is inconsistent.
You can run it through a number of tests, and you'll arrive at this result as long as we operate under the basic assumption.
NOTE: the basic assumption is to prevent arguments like, "Well, you can still have 1 be true if 2 is false if you use this feature 3 to enhance Heighten Spell." Feature 3 is irrelevant because it's not references in the feat. The feat doesn't know 3 exists.

Because 2 is entailed, you can't separate it from 1.

Yes, Wizards could have written it slightly better by using a colon or adding a clause to the second sentence saying, "When using Heighten Spell," but the feat still operates as we have all thought for a while (which is still usable to great effect with Shadowcraft Mages).
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline spacemonkey555

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 165
  • \o.O/
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2011, 10:06:51 PM »
Except the way that I'm reading it doesn't obviate the need for unworked earth. As I have previously stated.

Childe's point stands. The way you're reading it the first sentence doesn't restrict the second. If the second sentence is explaining the first, you have to use heighten, if it isn't, you don't need to be on earth or stone. You're contradicting yourself in an absurd manner, I guess because you want your idea to seem more reasonable.

Actually, by your raw interpretation, heighten has a special restriction that no other metamagic does when used with earth spell. Even more absurd.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 10:40:09 PM »
Wait a sec...

Wow, do I feel stupid. I just noticed what you were talking about that makes my interpretation absurd.

Wow. No more reporting "awesome rules tricks that require nitpicky interpretations of rules texts" for me when I have gone this long without sleep.

Damn my insomnia.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2011, 03:17:55 AM »
Wow. No more reporting "awesome rules tricks that require nitpicky interpretations of rules texts" for me when I have gone this long without sleep.
You know, 99% of "Look at my awesome new trick" threads are based on misreading things. So in that regard, if the thought ever passes though your mind you should probably wait a week before posting it. By then you'll probably have taken the time to reread things in a different prospective, or at least come up with better grounds than squint your eyes and tilt your head and it looks like this to support your new find.

Offline weenog

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2011, 01:12:08 PM »
If I'm riding a banana slug

You've encountered the truly epic banana slugs they have in Mendocino County too, huh?
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
"I doubt she's going to make a DC 111 Fort save, anyway."

Offline caelic

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • fnord
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 02:19:11 PM »
If I'm riding a banana slug

You've encountered the truly epic banana slugs they have in Mendocino County too, huh?


I'm a Buffalo Sabres fan.  That banana slug was the team mascot for a while.

Offline Tshern

  • The Clown Prince of Crime
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1245
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2011, 02:40:17 PM »
If I'm riding a banana slug

You've encountered the truly epic banana slugs they have in Mendocino County too, huh?


I'm a Buffalo Sabres fan.  That banana slug was the team mascot for a while.
They should start using Ville Leino correctly. The manager is killing his creativity just like what happened when he was in Detroit...
Pian unohtuu aika ja tila
Ja nahkapeitto ja syyllisyys
Ja rauenneilla kasvoilla
Viipyy muiston pysyvyys

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: I just noticed an odd little trick...
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2011, 03:28:54 PM »
The Sabres owner recently gave anear $100 Million gift, to start a Division 1 hockey program.



Quote from: WotC
Earth Spell
[General]

You draw magical power from the earth beneath your feet.

Prerequisite: Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, CON 13, WIS 13

Benefit: As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one. If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on. You cannot gain the benefit of this feat when casting a spell with the air, fire, or water descriptor.

Early qualifying perhaps ?
Your codpiece is a mimic.