Spells that you would typically ban from a campaign?

[Gazzien]

"If you are A, then you aren't A" I don't follow you...

It is literally impossible for you to be playing D&D against CR appropriate monsters played with even a modicum of intelligence and having only one round fights, so if your claim is that this is how D&D plays for you, you are lying.

Uh... so.... it's literally impossible to cast Save-or-Die spells? Because I mean... Even with a "modicum of intelligence" it's pretty easy to roll low on a save. Or, as the case may be, four saves (four party members), eight (twin/quicken), sixteen (both)..?

[Kaelik]

Basically avoid any spells that either grant a player more actions than his fellows (multiple summons, celerity, etc) or grant them access to a resource for free that others would have to pay a significant amount (major/minor creation, some conjuration spells) or long term (+8 hr) buffs. Or allow them to do things in significantly less time if that's a limit you need (long range teleports, Fabricate, etc)

So basically, get rid of every spell that a Wizard would ever want to cast? I mean, one of your qualifications is to ban any spell that allows a Wizard to do anything a Fighter can't. That should be every spell.

Now i'll admit that a lot of these spells are the ones that can be the most fun; but as a dm if your game format requires long epic journeys and quests to find the last worker of "x" to build widget "C" you might want to quietly muffle the spells that invalidate the core concept of the game. On the other hand not every style of play is supported at every level, so that is also an issue that might be more relevant to "trite-ness"

I don't know how you can in one breath talk about banning Teleport because it allows you to do things you couldn't do at level 5 and then in the breadth acknowledge that maybe you shouldn't be trying to run an adventure that teleport obviates at level 9.

Uh... so.... it's literally impossible to cast Save-or-Die spells? Because I mean... Even with a "modicum of intelligence" it's pretty easy to roll low on a save. Or, as the case may be, four saves (four party members), eight (twin/quicken), sixteen (both)..?

How about this, name a level, any level, and I'll show you how appropriate monsters fight at that level to negate your hypothetical one round D&D. Because right now you are telling me that at level 15 you prepare as your level 8 spells: 1 Power Word Stun or Irresistable Dance, these aren't actually save or dies, but whatever, 8th level doesn't have a lot of save or dies, more no save effects, 1 quickened Phantasmal Killer, one twinned Phantasmal Killer, and then you use a Rod of Twin on the Quickened one or something, and those are 3 of your 8th levels spells, and you spam out 4 saves using two 8th level spells on the first rounds of combat with each character, forcing 16 saves (well, really 32, because phantasmal killer) and then having novaed off way too many spells for a mediocre effect that could definitely be bypassed by any one of 4 immunities, you can't even do that for the next three fights in the day. Or the other 3 monsters in this fight.

Monsters get immunities, you have spell slots, monsters have defenses, monsters are not obligated to stand right next to you and inform you of what they are and what they are immune to, and they are not obligated to show up one at a time while you nova all your spells at them. Give a level.

[Gazzien]

How about this, name a level, any level, and I'll show you how appropriate monsters fight at that level to negate your hypothetical one round D&D. Because right now you are telling me that at level 15 you prepare as your level 8 spells: 1 Power Word Stun or Irresistable Dance, these aren't actually save or dies, but whatever, 8th level doesn't have a lot of save or dies, more no save effects, 1 quickened Phantasmal Killer, one twinned Phantasmal Killer, and then you use a Rod of Twin on the Quickened one or something, and those are 3 of your 8th levels spells, and you spam out 4 saves using two 8th level spells on the first rounds of combat with each character, forcing 16 saves (well, really 32, because phantasmal killer) and then having novaed off way too many spells for a mediocre effect that could definitely be bypassed by any one of 4 immunities, you can't even do that for the next three fights in the day. Or the other 3 monsters in this fight.

Monsters get immunities, you have spell slots, monsters have defenses, monsters are not obligated to stand right next to you and inform you of what they are and what they are immune to, and they are not obligated to show up one at a time while you nova all your spells at them. Give a level.

Fine. Level one. And sure, if it's going to be one-round against equal CR, then there should be four party members, shouldn't there? Awesome. Four Wizards. Let's do this, it won't even be a challenge.

[Kaelik]

Fine. Level one. And sure, if it's going to be one-round against equal CR, then there should be four party members, shouldn't there? Awesome. Four Wizards. Let's do this, it won't even be a challenge.

5% of your encounters could be overpowering, I will ignore those for the sake or argument.
15% would be Very Difficult. Such encounters might include:

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Araena: 60ft Darkvision, a climb speed, better spot and listen than you. Begins combat with a Web which breaks line of sight and effect and limits movement, have fun with your level 1 save or dies in this combat that clearly is going to take multiple rounds.

Dragons, lots of them, with breath weapons ranging from 60ft lines down to 20ft cones. All of which are just going to buzz you over and over.

A Sea Hag punching holes in your boat, but you never having line of sight or effect to her.

A Pixie that shoots arrows at you while Greater invisible from far above you with 60ft flight speed until you all fall asleep or die.

A endless line of animated objects that were animated by the Ravid somewhere in the castle, and you have to find it and kill it while (almost certainly avoiding rather than trying to kill) the animated objects.

A Bearded Devil Waiting in a Dark Cathedral.

For 50% of your encounters you would be facing "Challenging" encounters, IE, you usual EL 1 encounters, such as:

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A Dretch at the end of a long dark hallway, who stinking clouds you half way in, and then closes to fight you.

A medium animated construct.

A Ghoul, or perhaps a Lacedon underwater.

An Earth Elemental punching you out of the walls and floor.

Three human Warrior skeletons, or two Orc Zombies.

Two Kobolds with crossbows on balconies when you enter a room, who retreat down narrow tunnels to ambush you again later.

Eight Tiny Monstrous Centipedes all the way up to one Huge Monstrous Centipede.

Then 20% trick encounters, which are supposed to be easy if you figure out the trick, but hard otherwise, so probably more like the first set, but with crippling effects that you can institute, or limits to their movement or something.

Then 10% easy encounters, which at this level is basically like, team versus one kobold.

Tell me all about how your evil bad one round Wizard teams beats all these encounters.

[Gazzien]

Honestly, I spoke hastily. 2 Clr / 2 Wiz is probably better. 1 Drd / 1 Clr / 2 Wiz would be even better. But I'll do this with 4 Wiz.


Araena: Web doesn't break line of Sight, take turns casting Color Spray until it's stunned, move in (slowly) and then CdG it with your scythes.
Dragons: Well, we have line of sight. Color spray. Move in. CdG.
Sea Hag: "Never having line of sight or effect", alright, sure, get four level twenty fighters in here. Hell, four level 20 anythings. Good luck with never having Los/Loe. As soon as you decide that fine, we can have LoS, then Color Spray, CdG, done.
Pixie: Los? Check. Color Spray. Let the fall damage kill it, or search if you must.
I honestly have no idea what a Ravid is, but it's probably an outsider? And if it is, then just Color Spray, be done. (Animated objects are mindless, see: Silent Image)
Bearded Devil: Los? Boom. Color Spray. CdG. Done.

Dretch: Color Spray. CdG. Done.
Kobolds: Color spray. CdG. Done.
Centipedes of any size: Color Spray. CdG. Done.
Earth Elemental: can eat Delver Slime, and die. (Or any number of other readied-action ways to screw up being a Mole). Shapesand means it's 100gp for 12 pounds of the stuff (12 uses)
Construct: also gets murdered by Delver Slime. (More! More! AHAHAH!)
Skeletons and Zombies are mindless, see: Silent Image. And yes, we can prepare four silent images and still have four color sprays... each.
Ghoul might actually be the trickiest one. I dunno, maybe have Precocious Apprentice for a Scorching Ray or something.

Look, all but three of those get gimped by judicious use of Color Spray, and the rest are either falling to 8d10 acid damage (possibly x4) per round, or to a single Silent Image. It's not really a problem. And this is when wizards are their weakest.

[bhu]

Honestly the spells I would most likely ban are some curses I homebrewed for a Witch Doctor class.  Cause some of them are waaaay too fucked up to let PC's run amok with them.  Especially if they like PVP.

[Gazzien]

Honestly the spells I would most likely ban are some curses I homebrewed for a Witch Doctor class.  Cause some of them are waaaay too fucked up to let PC's run amok with them.  Especially if they like PVP.

By percentage, most banned spells are homebrew... There's gotta be at least a few thousand, and every (irl) game I play in bans all homebrew! 

Can I have a link to them, bhu? I'm curious now...

[bhu]

Honestly the spells I would most likely ban are some curses I homebrewed for a Witch Doctor class.  Cause some of them are waaaay too fucked up to let PC's run amok with them.  Especially if they like PVP.

By percentage, most banned spells are homebrew... There's gotta be at least a few thousand, and every (irl) game I play in bans all homebrew! 

Can I have a link to them, bhu? I'm curious now...

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2059.0  Just scroll down.  Of particular fucked upness are Deathwish, Everybody Loves Me, Fetish Monkey, Gaslighting, Ghost Dad, Illegal Thoughts, Lets Get Ready to Fumble, Master of Your Domain, My Cousin Jimmy Fucked a Squirrel Once, Something the Cat Dragged In, The Birds, Wandering Monster, Why is There Napalm in My Urine, and Your Own Personal Mosquito.  Granted they were designed for a class of professional bastards, but I dunno if I'd let some more disruptive PC's near them.

[Lokiyn]

ban this one, definitely

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[RobbyPants]

Look, all but three of those get gimped by judicious use of Color Spray, and the rest are either falling to 8d10 acid damage (possibly x4) per round, or to a single Silent Image. It's not really a problem. And this is when wizards are their weakest.

I think you're forgetting the 15 foot range on Color Spray

Dragons: Well, we have line of sight. Color spray. Move in. CdG.

He explicitly said the dragons would buzz over you using breath weapons. Both types have a range of 20 or 60 feet, which beats Color Spray.

Sea Hag: "Never having line of sight or effect", alright, sure, get four level twenty fighters in here. Hell, four level 20 anythings. Good luck with never having Los/Loe. As soon as you decide that fine, we can have LoS, then Color Spray, CdG, done.

I think the idea is, by the time you have LoE, you're under water, and cannot speak. You need a 1-foot hole in the boat for LoE, and the boat would sink with much less than that.

Pixie: Los? Check. Color Spray. Let the fall damage kill it, or search if you must.

Its bow range is greater than 15 feet and it is flying.

I honestly have no idea what a Ravid is, but it's probably an outsider? And if it is, then just Color Spray, be done. (Animated objects are mindless, see: Silent Image)

This is an issue of the resources the Ravid has. It can cast Animate Object at will, CL 20. So, its objects stay animated for 20 rounds. Unless you can locate and attack it before you get swarmed, it will be able to keep upward to 20 of these things animated at a time, and you will run out of spell slots. You might be able to hide behind an illusionary wall, but all that time, you're not finding the ravid.

Kobolds: Color spray. CdG. Done.

He explicitly gave them crossbows (80' range) and said they retreat to attack later.

Centipedes of any size: Color Spray. CdG. Done.

Color Spray is [Mind Affecting]. Although, you've mentioned Silent Image on other entries, so you just have to withstand one round of attacks to try and alter your strategy.



I'd say it looks like the 4-wizard party is more at a 50-50 rate of success.

[Gazzien]

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Look, all but three of those get gimped by judicious use of Color Spray, and the rest are either falling to 8d10 acid damage (possibly x4) per round, or to a single Silent Image. It's not really a problem. And this is when wizards are their weakest.

I think you're forgetting the 15 foot range on Color Spray

Dragons: Well, we have line of sight. Color spray. Move in. CdG.

He explicitly said the dragons would buzz over you using breath weapons. Both types have a range of 20 or 60 feet, which beats Color Spray.

Sea Hag: "Never having line of sight or effect", alright, sure, get four level twenty fighters in here. Hell, four level 20 anythings. Good luck with never having Los/Loe. As soon as you decide that fine, we can have LoS, then Color Spray, CdG, done.

I think the idea is, by the time you have LoE, you're under water, and cannot speak. You need a 1-foot hole in the boat for LoE, and the boat would sink with much less than that.

Pixie: Los? Check. Color Spray. Let the fall damage kill it, or search if you must.

Its bow range is greater than 15 feet and it is flying.

I honestly have no idea what a Ravid is, but it's probably an outsider? And if it is, then just Color Spray, be done. (Animated objects are mindless, see: Silent Image)

This is an issue of the resources the Ravid has. It can cast Animate Object at will, CL 20. So, its objects stay animated for 20 rounds. Unless you can locate and attack it before you get swarmed, it will be able to keep upward to 20 of these things animated at a time, and you will run out of spell slots. You might be able to hide behind an illusionary wall, but all that time, you're not finding the ravid.

Kobolds: Color spray. CdG. Done.

He explicitly gave them crossbows (80' range) and said they retreat to attack later.

Centipedes of any size: Color Spray. CdG. Done.

Color Spray is [Mind Affecting]. Although, you've mentioned Silent Image on other entries, so you just have to withstand one round of attacks to try and alter your strategy.



I'd say it looks like the 4-wizard party is more at a 50-50 rate of success.

Ravids... god damn, that's ridiculous. Still, I'm okay with failing against one CR 5 encounter.
Will admit, I missed the fact that centipedes were immune to mind-affecting. For some reason I forgot the [Vermin] type existed, and thought that they were Beasts.

Color Spray, weirdly, has Range: Line of Sight. Functionally, at least. "...a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it...", which, weirdly, means that you can hit anything in the 15'-cone (even if it's not looking), but can also hit, say, the entire army laying siege to your castle, if you can get them to look at you. It's why Color Spray is even more broken than it looks.

[RobbyPants]

Will admit, I missed the fact that centipedes were immune to mind-affecting. For some reason I forgot the [Vermin] type existed, and thought that they were Beasts.

And, ironically, the beast type stopped existing after 3.0.

Color Spray, weirdly, has Range: Line of Sight. Functionally, at least. "...a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it...", which, weirdly, means that you can hit anything in the 15'-cone (even if it's not looking), but can also hit, say, the entire army laying siege to your castle, if you can get them to look at you. It's why Color Spray is even more broken than it looks.

That's interesting. I never looked at the range as being longer than what the range explicitly states.

That being said, the explicit rules on spell range contradict that:

A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

So, it would seem that you cannot generate the spell's effects outside of 15 feet, even if the descriptive text of the spell says "anyone that sees it".

[Gazzien]

Will admit, I missed the fact that centipedes were immune to mind-affecting. For some reason I forgot the [Vermin] type existed, and thought that they were Beasts.

And, ironically, the beast type stopped existing after 3.0.

Color Spray, weirdly, has Range: Line of Sight. Functionally, at least. "...a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it...", which, weirdly, means that you can hit anything in the 15'-cone (even if it's not looking), but can also hit, say, the entire army laying siege to your castle, if you can get them to look at you. It's why Color Spray is even more broken than it looks.

That's interesting. I never looked at the range as being longer than what the range explicitly states.

That being said, the explicit rules on spell range contradict that:

A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

So, it would seem that you cannot generate the spell's effects outside of 15 feet, even if the descriptive text of the spell says "anyone that sees it".

I'm bad at memory.

I was being hyperbolic; the extra "range" comes from the rules on the Pattern subschool. It's not the descriptive text of the spell. And... huh. I guess I thought of it as the area of the burst is contained to that 15' range... I dunno, now. Does that mean if you targeted a Fireball at the extreme end of the range, you'd get a half-sphere of flame?

[RobbyPants]

Does that mean if you targeted a Fireball at the extreme end of the range, you'd get a half-sphere of flame?

In the strictest sense of the word, I would think so. I think it's often adjudicated that the range is the farthest you can target the spell, but that would seem contradictory to what the Range description says.

[Gazzien]

Does that mean if you targeted a Fireball at the extreme end of the range, you'd get a half-sphere of flame?

In the strictest sense of the word, I would think so. I think it's often adjudicated that the range is the farthest you can target the spell, but that would seem contradictory to what the Range description says.

Two specific rules, range and effect. Range seems to trump effect, but is a subschool more specific than a range?

I think this is a weird place where RAI is actually stronger than RAW. Weird.

[Kaelik]

Araena: Web doesn't break line of Sight, take turns casting Color Spray until it's stunned, move in (slowly) and then CdG it with your scythes.

"If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover." "Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover." "A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight."

Web blocks line of sight. Also you are more than 15ft away, so you can't color spray, I will return to this issue later with your patently stupid claim about color spray.

Dragons: Well, we have line of sight. Color spray. Move in. CdG.

Out of your range.

Sea Hag: "Never having line of sight or effect", alright, sure, get four level twenty fighters in here. Hell, four level 20 anythings. Good luck with never having Los/Loe. As soon as you decide that fine, we can have LoS, then Color Spray, CdG, done.

You are level one characters. If you were level 20, you could just fly over not using a boat. Or you could use a boat, and when it punches a hole in the boat fix the boat instantly, or you could wish for a new boat. Spoiler alert, low level challenges like Sea Hags are in fact challenges for low level characters without being challenges to higher level characters. Also, if you had line of sight, you would have to make saves or be dazed for the rest of your life, and possible die.

Pixie: Los? Check. Color Spray. Let the fall damage kill it, or search if you must.

Range, again.

Bearded Devil: Los? Boom. Color Spray. CdG. Done.

Are you familair with the concepts of Spell Resistance or saving throws? I ask because you seem to be acting under the perverse belief that it is impossible for things to make saving throws, and that you automatically bypass SR. In particular this combat would be super funny with your absurd definition of color spray's effect, because at that point, one of your Wizards would cast color spray, and all four of your Wizards would immediately have to save or get knocked out, where the Bearded Devil almost certainly has a higher will save than you, and SR 17. So after you more likely than not do nothing to him, and more likely than not knock two of your wizards into a stupor, you can follow up with more likely than not doing nothing to him, and more likely than not dropping at least one more wizard unconscious. After you have finished knocking yourselves unconscious, he could coup de grace all of you, or alternatively, you might get lucky and knock him out at the same time, in which case he would proceed to stand up, and you could start wasting your spells knocking yourself unconscious all over again.

Dretch: Color Spray. CdG. Done.

You being the combat outside of range an inside a stinking cloud. Stinking Clouds also block line of sight, so even if you pass the fort saves, you still only knock yourselves out casting Color Pray (under your incorrect interpretation).

Kobolds: Color spray. CdG. Done.

Outside of your range.

Centipedes of any size: Color Spray. CdG. Done.

Immune.

Earth Elemental: can eat Delver Slime, and die. (Or any number of other readied-action ways to screw up being a Mole). Shapesand means it's 100gp for 12 pounds of the stuff (12 uses)Construct: also gets murdered by Delver Slime. (More! More! AHAHAH!)

Shapesand cannot make Delver Slime, so you can't have Delver Slime, and you can try to figure out some other way to beat them.

Ghoul might actually be the trickiest one. I dunno, maybe have Precocious Apprentice for a Scorching Ray or something.

So now you are building a level 1 only party, and you are just ignoring all that pesky line of effect and seeing things and surprise.

Look, all but three of those get gimped by judicious use of Color Spray, and the rest are either falling to 8d10 acid damage (possibly x4) per round, or to a single Silent Image. It's not really a problem. And this is when wizards are their weakest.

1) Wizards are not at their weakest at level 1.

2) Zero of those fall to color spray. Also you are claiming to be able to use an alchemical item you can't even afford to get the uses to kill things by turning it into a substance it can't even be turned into.

Color Spray, weirdly, has Range: Line of Sight. Functionally, at least. "...a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it...", which, weirdly, means that you can hit anything in the 15'-cone (even if it's not looking), but can also hit, say, the entire army laying siege to your castle, if you can get them to look at you. It's why Color Spray is even more broken than it looks.

There are two problems with claim, one is as pointed out above, if it were true, it would mean that you knocked yourselves unconscious every time you cast it.

The second is of course, that it is completely wrong.

"Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it." This statement does not declare that anyone who sees a pattern is effected. It stated that a pattern spell creates an image, and that the pattern created by the spell affects the minds of those "who see it" OR "are caught in it." Note that even with an inclusive or, all that means is that different spells could have different effects.

In particular, the spell Color Spray describes what it does. "Each creature within the cone is affected according to its Hit Dice." So even if the pattern created by Color spray "affects the minds of those who see it" it only has the default not being in the cone effect on those who see it, which coincidentally, is nothing.

So ultimately, your entire claim to "One round fights" is based on you ignoring the monsters ways of preventing you from effecting them on round 1, such as Stinking Cloud and Web, ignoring SR and saves, and pretending they always fail, ignoring the costs of items, and ignoring what shapesand even does, and ignoring the actual effects of spells and making up your own crazy interpretation that is not grounded in the actual rules, and then ignoring the obvious drawback of the crazy rules you just made up.

[Gazzien]

You're being pointlessly antagonistic and obviously didn't read the conversation I just had with RobbyPants, but look. I went to optimization by the numbers, looked at the "average will save by CR", saw that everything under CR 3 had an average will save of 3, which means you're making that DC 40% of the time, with four wizards that's .4^4 = 2.5% of the time, which I think is close enough for eyeball work. Honestly, if you put me at level one up against a CR 5 monster, I'd walk out on your group. Is it advised in the book? Maybe, sure. Is it anywhere near fair, especially considering that I went at this with no prep time or earlier information? Not really.

Looked at web, saw total cover, looked at line of effect, noticed it never said no LoS, figured Color Spray would work. I still think it does (or would, see above), honestly, based on the effect (plus, you could always Color Spray up out of the web, or something, man I dunno I'm writing this in breaks while studying for midterms). Line of effect != line of sight (or else you couldn't see through a sewer grate, no?)

Didn't check Bearded Devil for SR, admittedly I should have but I couldn't be bothered to waste the time. Was running off guesses at types (see: centipede, also above, yeah you just wanted to attack mistakes I already made, I get it, that's why this is my last post in this offtopic disrail) and assumed anything you would have to fight at level 1 wouldn't be CR 5 and with spell resistance.

As for knocking yourselves unconscious, it's entirely impossible for them to have a word that means "look away from me" or something set up where you don't look at an ally who's spellcasting? Yeah, that sounds impossible. No-one would ever set that up.

Dretch, stinking cloud, good thing move actions exist, or color spraying out of the cloud, or such. Etc etc, stinking cloud is not instant death, it's once per day, etc etc.

Shapesand... uh, why doesn't it? I can't find a rule that says delver slime isn't an item, and shapesand functions exactly as a normal item that you shaped it into... Whatever, sure, it doesn't function, you use your precocious-apprenticed scorching rays. Boom, done. Even if you can't make Shapesand, you can afford a use or two of Delver Slime. (Hold onto some Aboleth Mucous if we're being ridiculous, I feel like you'd throw a Level 6 PC (CR 5! Yay! That's fair!) at the party just to be a dick.)

I admitted the ghoul was tough, yes I was doing it with level one characters, I don't get the rest of your comment so I'm moving along. (You want to play things "intelligently", then people move at 30' a round with a readied action to cast if they get ambushed? Uh... okay, that's INT-14 tactics (I don't consider myself a paragon of human ability), what's INT-20?)

Or... you know, you could just read the Pattern subschool as saying that it happens to things in the effect and things that see it. Whatever, I'm done. Have fun abusing your players by throwing CR 5 monsters at them and preventing them from getting LOE or whatever.

[Lokiyn]

On topic please?

To reiterate, for the op

It's hard to make a list of always ban spells, in part because what makes one campaign "trite" is necessary in another.

As mentioned, if you want a game about an epic journey and feel that shortcuts would invalidate the premise of the game, you can either run the game at a level before the party gets access to cheap long range travel magics, or you can run the game at a higher level and ban the teleportation spells that would make the campaign "trite"

So really it's up to you, the dm, to decide what [kind] of game you want to run; only then could one reasonably make a proper list of banned spells.

[Kaelik]

I went to optimization by the numbers, looked at the "average will save by CR", saw that everything under CR 3 had an average will save of 3, which means you're making that DC 40% of the time, with four wizards that's .4^4 = 2.5% of the time, which I think is close enough for eyeball work.

Except for that whole thing where I gave you a list of of encounters where you can't color spray something on the first round for a variety of reasons, and you responded by alleging that I was a cheater in every instance that you didn't claim a backwards as fuck "rule interpretation" based on your inability to understand the concept of inclusive (or even worse for you, exclusive) "or" applied to sets.

Is it anywhere near fair, especially considering that I went at this with no prep time or earlier information? Not really.

You don't have to walk into a darkened cathedral with no prep time or information, but prep and information are things that take more than one round, resulting in you having to actually admit that your trite claim that you can solo anything in the game with your one round combats is wrong, so you insist that instead you should be able to walk into any situation without thinking and win anyway, and that if you can't win without thinking then I'm cheating. But that isn't how this works, if your problems are: 1) Everything in the game can be beaten in a single round, and 2) Some fights that the game specifically tells you that you can handle are so hard that you can't win them in a single round, and you would need additional rounds of thought and action and preparation to beat them.

I would humbly suggest: Problem Solved.

As for knocking yourselves unconscious, it's entirely impossible for them to have a word that means "look away from me" or something set up where you don't look at an ally who's spellcasting? Yeah, that sounds impossible. No-one would ever set that up.

If you haven't yet acted in init, you can't even take immediate actions, so what action are you using to look away? And that's great, there is a level one spell with a radius effect of 300000 billion miles that everyone and every monster knows about, and you apparently think that people can just look away as a non action. Spoiler alert, you start casting a spell, and the Dragon, Devils, Demons, Areanas, and Pixies are going to look away for a couple seconds too. And let's be clear there are verbal, somatic, and material components, so everyone knows you are casting a spell, if it becomes a non action to look away from the caster for your flat footed Wizard friends why on earth can't that be done just as easily by your intelligent opposition?

Dretch, stinking cloud, good thing move actions exist, or color spraying out of the cloud, or such. Etc etc, stinking cloud is not instant death, it's once per day, etc etc.

No, it isn't instant death, it just has a better chance of removing your standard actions for the duration than your color spray does of effecting the dretch. And as described, if you run away, congrats, that fight took more than a round, and if you don't run away, but you move towards the dretch, you will be nauseated standing in front of a dretch. But sure, tell me about how you are going to use your stupid nonsense line of sight color spray effect to color spray a monster you haven't even see yet, and don't know is even there by casting it outside the stinking cloud.

Shapesand... uh, why doesn't it? I can't find a rule that says delver slime isn't an item, and shapesand functions exactly as a normal item that you shaped it into...

You can shape shapesand into any form, not into any substance. It remains sand in whatever form you shape it into. That is the explicit text of the ability. Do you also use shapesand to bypass Adamantine DR? You can't do that either. Do you also shapesand into a Cloak of Resistance? Spoiler alert, it is just a cloak that offers you a +0 resistance bonus to saves. You can't turn shapesand into Alchemical flask fluid, special sandwater when you are thirsty, delver's slime, or the corpse of a creature for you to animate dead. It is still just sand. You also can't turn it into an Orichalium thing or whatever and have it suck up people's souls when they die.

you can afford a use or two of Delver Slime.

No, you really can't. I don't even know where you think you are getting a price on Delver's Slime in the first place.

I feel like you'd throw a Level 6 PC (CR 5! Yay! That's fair!) at the party just to be a dick.)

1) That would definitionally not be a PC, but assuming you mean PC classed character:
2) That would be CR 6, but honestly PC classes characters are usually weaker than comparable monsters when using NPC wealth rules, which they would have to, and elite arrays, which is the standard for unimportant ones.

I admitted the ghoul was tough, yes I was doing it with level one characters, I don't get the rest of your comment so I'm moving along. (You want to play things "intelligently", then people move at 30' a round with a readied action to cast if they get ambushed? Uh... okay, that's INT-14 tactics (I don't consider myself a paragon of human ability), what's INT-20?)

1) Readied actions aren't very clear, but it would have to be an extremely generous DM to let you say "I ready an action to cast some kind of spell if I see some kind of creature."
2) It would have to be an idiot that allowed readied actions to go before the surprise round, even though you are flat footed, and surprised, hence the name.
3) Wouldn't help most people because your go to spell is color spray, and contrary to your protestations, that does not effect people not in the cone.

Or... you know, you could just read the Pattern subschool as saying that it happens to things in the effect and things that see it. Whatever, I'm done. Have fun abusing your players by throwing CR 5 monsters at them and preventing them from getting LOE or whatever.

WOW. It is genuinely amazing that you are this incredibly dishonest. I mean, I literally just quoted in the post that you are addressing the actual rules, and you still persist in claiming that it says "and" when it says "or" just because you now realize that you are completely wrong, and that pattern subschools do not extend out to line of sight under the actual rules?

I mean, you whine that the game is too easy, and then you whine that having to put a brief modicum of thought into your actions is just not fair, and base all this on the dumbest possible non-interpretation lie about the text of the pattern school . . .

[faeryn]

WOW. It is genuinely amazing that you are this incredibly dishonest. I mean, I literally just quoted in the post that you are addressing the actual rules, and you still persist in claiming that it says "and" when it says "or" just because you now realize that you are completely wrong, and that pattern subschools do not extend out to line of sight under the actual rules?

While I'm not going to try and defend his view that color spray has an extended range based on sight... I do have to correct you on this... there are no claims that it says "and" if the rule had said "and" then patterns would ONLY affect those who met both conditions inside the range AND can see it... the rules stating "or" does allow for the interpretation that a pattern spell can and does affect a target who is outside of the range but can see the pattern,  but of course the pattern must have an effect outlined for such viewers. Color spray does explicitly specify that it affects targets inside the cone, which does mean that the specific instance of color spray only affects those who are in range, but other patterns that do not make such explicit specifications would indeed affect both those in range and those who can see it.

TL;DR - color spray is specific that it affects those inside, the rule is general and says that it affects those who are inside OR see it.



Back on topic:

The biggest issue I really see with spellcasting that leads to a need to ban certain spells is Permanancy/Persist abuse... It's far too easy to get excessive amounts of power from permanancy & persisted spell effects.
Past that there are various cheese tactics involving normally fairly benign spells that result in PCs having far more power than they should ever have at their level. Using my previous campaign experiance as an example... before we even reached level 20 we were able to boost our individual abilities to the point that we were equivilant to CR30+ each... that should not be possible yet it is due to permanancy & persist. We playing effecctivly as mundanes reserving all our spell slots for buffing. I was playing a Spellthief/Wizard/Archivist and used my spells mostly to buff my sneak attack, attack, and AC through the roof, in a party of 2 with a ranger who never used any of her spells, instead she lent me her spells to fuel furthar buffing on both of us via my spellthief abilities. What spell slots I had left over went to casting illusions when viable.