Improving fighting styles for Fighters

[SolEiji]

Related to http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=740.msg16092#new

Eventually I'm up to create some homebrew fighter-exclusive feats which take the feats required for various common fighting styles (such as sword and board, one-handed, two weapon fighting, etc) and making these fighter-exclusive supplimentary feats which bring it up to tier 4 or 3 if possible.  It'll give fighters something to spend their glut of feats on after they got the initial base feats needed for the style, as well as raise their strength overall, as the fighter's power comes from its feats, and the fighter exclusive feats as they stand are both slim and weak.  The weapon focus/specialization chain is a joke.

This is mostly information gathering at this point but I'm happy to accept any ideas, thoughts, and suggestions right now.  When I get around to actually making them I'll use whats been posted here.

For reference...

Mostly, focus on bringing them up to T4 first, attaining basic needed functions(theres a whole bunch of flaws with each combat style), before shooting for T3. The fighter as is, can be pushed to T4 with increased feat power, but T3 requires a dramatic leap in versatility, and ability to deal with non-combat challenges in some way at least.

Chargers suffer from low AC(you want every bit of charge range you can get, so heavier armors present a problem, you want every bit of damage, so non-animated shields are out), but with a few feats, enjoy a larger number of multipliers to damage than most other styles. Getting access to pounce somehow is the alternative to the massively multiplied attack. Additionally, they face the simple hazard of charging across the field and potentially across multiple reach zones, especially for large creatures that out-reach them.

Thats just one, an its an already effective style(mostly because unless they survive your hit or if they have friends your nuked AC is not really a concern). For more you could start another thread.

This is a good example, showing possible holes to patch with the ubercharger fighting style.

[lans]

For S&B I think a shield block feat that gives a miss chance and an immediate action block would go very good.

Figure make tower shields 50% and work from there.

[veekie]

Light and Medium armors are also often contraindicated, while in the media lighter armor means you evade and get hit less(while heavier armors tend to get hit more and tank the attacks on their armor), here lighter armors is just outright an inferior style.

[Jackinthegreen]

One of the best fighter redos I've seen is at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278.  Basically, at high levels it has the possibility of outright killing something with a mundane attack.  The opponent dies based on the attack roll, not actual damage sustained.  Pretty much the same as a save-or-die.  And there's a bit of out-of-combat stuff it can do thanks to expanded skills.

I think it was Dragon 310 that added a few different kinds of fighters as well as a few optional feat replacement abilities for them.

[Cannotthink]

Dragon 310 does have the alternative fighter classes. There are a few really nice options to get out of there.

Corsair: two free special abilities from their list and their list of abilities has some fun options (bull rush from a rope ftw)

Exoticist: four free Exotic Weapon Proficiencies

Pugilist: free Improved Unarmed Strike and Endurance; choose abilities from a list that includes taking only non-lethal damage, reducing non-lethal damage, and smoothing out iterative attacks with unarmed strikes

Targetteer: two free ranged Exotic Weapon Proficiencies, ability to sac attacks to increase threat range, ability to deal their dex modifier as damage with ranged weapons

It's nothing that really bumps the fighter up a tier, though the pugilist's 'I don't take lethal damage' is pretty close.

[JaronK]

Basic Shield Fighter concepts:

1)  Things shields could give: their shield bonus to reflex saves/touch attacks, miss chances based on the size of the shield, evasion or improved evasion while held (similar to cover bonuses).  Maybe even a feat that then doubles this bonus, or adds half your Fighter level to your shield bonus.

2)  Some kind of "shield your allies" ability would be awesome.  Perhaps a feat that gives half your shield benefits to all allies within reach of your shield.  So combining this with 1, if you have a +4 Heavy Shield, you might get +6 to regular and touch AC, +6 reflex saves, 50% miss chance, and improved evasion.  Nearby allies could get +3 to AC and reflex saves, 25% miss chance, and evasion.

2)  Debilitating attacks, following the idea of Shield Charge and Shield Slam.  Set it up so shield bashing doesn't necessarily kill instantly (like TWF might) but rather neutralizes enemies.  Basically, you want to make sure enemies can't just ignore the shield guy and go after everyone else.


JaronK

[Seerow]

I have a set of feats devoted to trying to rebalance the various fighting styles, which may be relevant to your interests. I designed them such that they were universal, and intended to give at least one style to each martially oriented class, but they could be adapted:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1186.msg8789#msg8789





Also, one concept I have pushed for in Fighters for a long time is flexibility. Don't force them into a single style. Give them multiple styles. For example the Fighter I intend to make to go along with that gets two different sets of style feats for free he can switch between as a swift action. So he could switch instantly from having the full set of two handed feats to the full set of ranged weapon feats.

[veekie]

The Einhander style is probably the worst of the lot, you don't get the big damage or reach from two handing, you don't get the virtual accuracy(2 attacks being more likely to hit at least once) from TWFing, you don't get the AC from sword and board. Of course it makes some sense(nobody fights that way unless they're doing sport fencing or have no other choice), but it'd then be focused on a lot of quick, light attacks trying to nail a vital spot thematically.

Spring Attacking has several major problems:
-Light armor, making them piss easy to hit in contrast with the thematic agility
-Constant AoO provocation, they don't usually have reach either.
-Thematic association with the einhander style. To add fuel to the fire.
-Weak impact. At least Flyby Attack gives you a full standard action to deliver your offense, which you can leverage with powerful standard attacks(like spells)
-Not effective even at what it does. Sure, you're supposed to move in, stab them, and move out, which prevents your opponent from getting a full attack off...except you're splitting your move speed into two intervals, and if it's 30ft, you get to move 15ft in, then 15ft out again, leaving you with 1 AoO and nicely in Move+ Attack range, and to spare. Or worse, leaving you straight up great to be ubercharged.

[lans]

So
THW=Damage
S&B=Protection
TWF=Accuracy
OHW=Mobility? Bit of Protection aand accuracy?

[cjosephs1s]

So
THW=Damage
S&B=Protection
TWF=Accuracy
OHW=Mobility? Bit of Protection aand accuracy?

I've been playing straight fighter builds for the last five years and this has always been the case.  There are things to do to help each out so that you can add more of something but their main focus is still the same.  TWF for example is designed to for accuracy, but with keen weapons with large threat ranges you can increase the chance you will crit thus upping the ammount of damage you can do.  Or take the two weapon defense tree and gain more protection. 

But the question remains how do make them more versatile in OOCombat situations?  MOst of the T1 gorup is all magic users, even T2 is magic users and a lot of t3 has magic or supernatural abilities so the only way to bump the fighter to this new tier is to give him something more than what he's got.  What that is I don't know.  And what would happen if you did is anyone's guess.  You might end up with an all powerful god like melee machine.  Even though the fighter is T5 they are still the masters of melee imo.  With their feats they can do what any other fighting class can do and usually do it better (ToB may be the exception due to its change of playstyle..it is after all a 4e playtest book).

 Making them T3 is going to be extremely hard because without magic or supernatural/extraordinary abilities they are what they are:  fighters.  You can monkey with their skill points and class skills and this will help some.  For example I see no reason why fighters should not get spot/listen/search as class skills.  Are there eyes naturally worse than than other classes?  Hearing?  ability to look about a room for something out of the ordinary?  No.  I"d say giving them more skill points in key skills is a goodplace to start before opening up pandora's box. 

[JaronK]

Not that it makes perfect sense, but single hand fighting could be set up for fighting a single target (dueling, if you will).  So you could get bonuses like "add half your fighter as a dodge bonus to AC and reflex saves against the designated target" and feats like "Surprising Lunge: As a Swift Action, you may double your normal reach until the end of your turn when using a weapon in one hand and not holding anything in the other.  If you hit with any of these attacks, your opponent loses their dexterity bonus to AC  until the beginning of your next turn."

Where shield attacks would debilitate enemies in ways that prevent them from attacking or harming the party, one handed fighting attacks would make a single opponent more vulnerable to attack while protecting you from that single opponent.

JaronK

[Kethrian]

If you're looking for homebrew stuff, here's my homebrew fighter.

[X-Codes]

Eventually I'm up to create some homebrew fighter-exclusive feats...

Ok, you know what?  I stopped reading here, I've seen this movie before.  This approach to "fixing" the Fighter never really works, because adding feat taxes to feat taxes just to be able to do something isn't all that great design.  If you want to add more fighter-exclusive feats, that's great.  You still absolutely need to remove all these feat taxes, though.  Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash... all of them need to go.  Some of them should have their effects applied by default, while others should just be removed.

Do that as a two-part process to buffing up the Fighter, then you might have something interesting.

[SolEiji]

Eventually I'm up to create some homebrew fighter-exclusive feats...

Ok, you know what?  I stopped reading here, I've seen this movie before.  This approach to "fixing" the Fighter never really works, because adding feat taxes to feat taxes just to be able to do something isn't all that great design.  If you want to add more fighter-exclusive feats, that's great.  You still absolutely need to remove all these feat taxes, though.  Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash... all of them need to go.  Some of them should have their effects applied by default, while others should just be removed.

Do that as a two-part process to buffing up the Fighter, then you might have something interesting.

I've already made new fighter classes and all, and their all fine and good.  I'm just out to see if its possible to improve the quality of Fighter by improving the quality of the fighter's feats.  That way one can work with the original chassis without needing to remake the class too.  I don't know what the requirements of each feat would be (besides "fighter level X" since the point is to make them fighter exclusive), but I don't mean to imply that they'd be on the ends of long feat chains.  Rather I mean to imply I want them to synergiz well with your TWF, your Power Attack, your Combat Expertise, etc.  I can't really comment on the rest.

Btw, good suggestions everyone above.  Just wanted to thank you guys.

[JaronK]

Ok, you know what?  I stopped reading here, I've seen this movie before.  This approach to "fixing" the Fighter never really works, because adding feat taxes to feat taxes just to be able to do something isn't all that great design.  If you want to add more fighter-exclusive feats, that's great.  You still absolutely need to remove all these feat taxes, though.  Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash... all of them need to go.  Some of them should have their effects applied by default, while others should just be removed.

Do that as a two-part process to buffing up the Fighter, then you might have something interesting.

I always preferred just upgrading those feats for Fighters specifically, so that they become decent Fighter class features.  For example, Shield Specialization gives +1 AC when using the appropriate shield... and an additional +1 AC per two Fighter levels.  Weapon Focus gives +1 to hit with the appropriate weapon... and +1 to hit per three Fighter levels.  Improved Shield Bash does its normal thing... and gives Shield Charge for free if you have three Fighter levels, and Shield Slam for free if you have 6.

Along with some other changes, it really makes it worth it to actually stay in the Fighter class, and suddenly every level gives a lot of cool stuff.  Plus, you only need a few feats in a specific category to be awesome, so Fighters actually can be flexible in combat.

JaronK