Help with Arcane Trickster Build

[TurdFergusen]

Hey all,

I am new to DnD and will be rolling my first character on Monday. I would love some input on what I have in mind.

I plan on being a Rogue Arcane Trickster and possibly multi-classing a bit. (More on multi-tasking later)

I used the Knife in the Dark handbook as my base guide: https://web.archive.org/web/20150916232639/http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4147321

I have no idea what my attribute rolls will be yet but I am leaning towards allocating in this order, highest to lowest: Dex/Int/Con/Wis/Str

I am leaning towards forest Gnome for my Race because +2 Int and +1 Dex, Darkvision, Gnome Cunning, Natural illusionist seem to go well with my build. I am considering High Elf as an alternative.

I am thinking Charlatan for my background because Deception + Sleight of hand + Disguise/forgery proficiency are all very useful.

I plan on doing most of my damage by setting up sneak attacks with illusion and stealth. I would be using a hand crossbow as my main weapon. I also want to get an owl familiar at some point to scout for me.

For feats I plan on getting Crossbow Expert to set up two crossbow attacks per round. I also wanted to go for Magic Initiate. The guide suggests (Cleric): Guidance, Resistance, Bless. Thoughts?

Here is the Breakdown the guide I am using provides:

Race: Forest Gnome
Ability Score Array: Str 8, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 17, Wis 8, Cha 12
Background: Charlatan
Proficient Skills: Acrobatics, Deception, Investigation, Persuasion, Stealth, Sleight of Hand
Level 1: Expertise: Deception, Stealth
Level 2:
Level 3:
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement: Crossbow Expert feat
Level 5:
Level 6: Expertise: Persuasion, Sleight of Hand
Level 7:
Level 8: Ability Score Improvement: Dex +2
Level 9:
Level 10: Ability Score Improvement: Magic Initiate feat (Cleric): Guidance, Resistance, Bless,
Level 11:
Level 12: Ability Score Improvement: Con +1, Int +1
Level 13:
Level 14:
Level 15:
Level 16: Ability Score Improvement:  Dex +2
Level 17:
Level 18:
Level 19: Ability Score Improvement: Int +2
Level 20:

Spell Selection
Level 1:
Level 2:
Level 3: Message, Prestidigitation, Shield, Silent Image, Sleep
Level 4: Charm Person
Level 5:
Level 6:
Level 7: Mirror Image, swap Charm Person for Suggestion
Level 8: Misty Step
Level 9: swap Sleep for Invisibility
Level 10: Hold Person
Level 11: Disguise Self
Level 12:
Level 13: Hypnotic Pattern, swap Disguise Self for Major Image
Level 14: Blink
Level 15:
Level 16: Phantom Steed
Level 17:
Level 18:
Level 19: Confusion, swap Phantom Steed for Greater Invisibility
Level 20: Dimension Door

Any thoughts on the above?

I am thinking of Multi classing with Fighter. At least 1 level seems like a good idea, but maybe going for 5 would make for an even better build. Some questions… Is that a good idea? If I got five levels of fighter, could I then get three shots off with my Crossbow per turn (With Crossbow Expert)? When would you mix those levels in?

Any other ideas?

Thanks, Turd.

[phaedrusxy]

OK, so are you completely married to the idea of a multiclassed rogue/wizard/Arcane Trickster, or do you just want a wizard who is also highly skilled and uses sneak attacks? I've playing a skilled, sneak-attacking wizard a few times now, and the build I've used has only one level of spellthief and no levels of rogue or arcane trickster. To be honest, the spellthief could be done away with as well, depending on what level you're starting at. Overwhelmingly, you're better off losing as few caster levels as possible (ideally none!) when making spellcasters.

A dip into Urban Savant offers a relatively easy way to meet the skill prereqs for Unseen Seer for a wizard, and they fit together very well thematically, and could work for the kind of character I think you're wanting. Unseen Seer gives you a sneak attack progression, and lets you cherry pick divination spells from other class spell lists. Hunter's Eye is a ranger spell that gives you more sneak attack based on your caster level. You can also add +2d6 via a feat (Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance) combined with an item (Shadow Hands gloves) for the prereq.

If you can squeeze in three levels of Incantatrix, you will be able to persist buffs on yourself via (extremely high) spellcraft checks, but it will really eat a lot of feats (Extend, Persistent Spell, and Item Familiar are basically all "must haves" to make it work, and Iron Will is a prereq). Here is a link to a version of the build up to 7th level.

Basically, if you're starting off at a higher level, I'd be tempted to just go Wizard 5/Urban Savant 2/Unseen Seer 10/Incantatrix 3 (not in that order). If starting out at the lower levels, taking the first level as rogue, spellthief, or generic expert is probably worth it.

I'm not a huge fan of Arcane Trickster. The skill prereqs are annoying, and it doesn't really offer much except a sneak attack progression, which you can get from Unseen Seer (especially with Hunter's Eye).

[stanprollyright]

What edition is this?

[Shadowhunter]

What edition is this?

This looks like 5th edition to me.

[TurdFergusen]

Sorry, should have made clear, this is for 5e. For my build, I want to be the group's trap monkey and have an effective way to attack that is also a bit of fun. I figured the Arcane Trickster had enough versatility for this.

[phaedrusxy]

lol, guess I should read the OP more carefully (I haven't played 5e or even looked at it, so forgive my cluelessness).

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Those 5e -isms haven't yet infiltrated your dogga-sutra calm.
  ommmm bacon ommmm


TF for easier access than wayback, try the ENWorld "lifeboat" section :
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468837-A-Knife-in-the-Dark-A-Rogues-Handbook

... and (or) the 5e section of these boards.

Dex 15+1 , Int 14+2 , Con 15 waiting on Resilient at level 10
Wis 10 (for saves + Perception) , Cha 8 and Str 8 dump stats
Friends cantrip is a decent sub for Intimidate and Deception.
Max either Int or Dex first, depending on what you wanna focus on.

[TurdFergusen]

Yeah, I have used the Knife in the darkness as my main source of knowledge.

[TenaciousJ]

The great majority of a rogue's damage comes from their 1 sneak attack per turn.  You gain more damage per round by finding ways to set up reaction attacks than you do by going with crossbow expert.  Crossbow expert's bonus action attack, while nice, interferes with a rogue's strongest base feature, cunning action, which you can reliably use as a longer-ranged character to hide and set yourself up for continued advantage against a target.  Going to level 5 of fighter for a 2nd attack will allow you greater options in combat than crossbow expert will.  You're not a pure fighter that goes for damage by volume of hits.  You only really need to get your one big attack per turn, so going for fighter 5 and crossbow expert is a bit of overkill IMO.

3 levels of fighter makes a lot of sense for an arcane trickster.  At level 1, take archery fighting style for +2 to attack rolls with ranged weapons, and at level 2, action surge can help you setup a sneak attack via tasha's hideous laughter/hold person/invisibility/etc. and then an attack in the same turn.  Level 3 gets access to maneuvers (2 rogues each with access to commanding strike give each other 2 sneak attacks per round 4 times per short rest) or continues spell slot progression with more spells known.  Level 4 of fighter gets you an ability score increase, and then the 2nd attack gives you another chance to land a sneak attack if your first one misses, but then you have to have crossbow expert or take up the shortbow instead.  Level 4 and 5 are probably worth it too.  If you go shortbow and skip crossbow expert, you can gain access to sharpshooter for improved accuracy (and higher damage for your 2nd hit if your 1st hit lands for a sneak attack) or skulker to keep your advantage from being hidden if your first shot misses.

I'm personally baffled why the rogue guide would suggest magic initiate: cleric as high enough a priority to skip an ability score increase.  Bless is a wonderful spell, but you can only use it once per day.  The feat does not allow an arcane trickster to cast the spell with his own spell slots.  It also eats up your concentration that could be used on invisibility or a control spell.  That really looks more like a "if you have a generous DM that helps you get higher than normal ability scores, take this" type of recommendation.

[Nunkuruji]

You could also ask your DM to allow sneak attacks with attack roll spells/cantrips. Totally a house rule, but makes the spell sniping arcane trickster archetype actually work.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

... Level 3 gets access to maneuvers (2 rogues each with access to commanding strike give each other 2 sneak attacks per round 4 times per short rest) ...

Niiiiiice.

 ... I'm personally baffled why the rogue guide would suggest magic initiate: cleric as high enough a priority to skip an ability score increase ...

Was an very early guide, and a year+'s worth of scrutiny ought to whittle it down some.
Agreed. 

... The feat does not allow an arcane trickster to cast the spell with his own spell slots ...

iirc - there was a Tweet-rata about that (twat-rata?) opening it up a little. 
I don't have a reference for it though = bad kitty avatar bad.

... It also eats up your concentration that could be used on invisibility or a control spell ...

Mmm right, might wanna go Resilient Con earlier at level 8 ,
right at the point all those level 2 Conc spells start to happen.


The improved Mage Hand and an Owl Familiar
is quite enough to be your own Flank buddy.