[3.5] Druid vs Cleric, which is "better"?

[Beimaks]

From what I have discovered about Druid's, the best thing they have is the versatility they have, with Wild Shaping, Animal Companions, eventual 9th level spells, and the Planar Shepherd prestige class (from what I understand, this is the only one that progresses spells, wild shape, and animal companion all together). Clerics get domains, turn undead, and also 9th level spells.

In terms of the raw potential, I was comparing the two and I have come to the conclusion that Clerics can be strictly better than Druids (unless you do some Planar Shepherd thing where you can get infinite or multiple Wish spells?) and here's why:

Assume a Cleric takes the Animal Domain, he will have access to the 9th level spell Shapechange at level 17, and if a DMM: Persist is applied and used on self, the Cleric can now take on the form of any creature from Tiny to Colossal size of an HD up to his caster level for 24 hours, gain all their Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities, be able to use a free action every round (6 seconds) to change forms and heal his own hit points entirely, all while still being able to access all of his spells.

If a Cleric just uses DMM: Persist on a Summon Monster spell, then bam, he gets an Animal Companion (or multiple) that he doesn't have to worry about dying.

So now the only thing left that a Druid can do that a Cleric can't, is access the Planar Shepherd's Planar Bubble ability right?

Unless of course, you take the Divine Minion template (now you have access to the Wild Shape feature), and take the Spontaneous Summoner spell so you can spontaneous cast Summon Nature's Ally spells after accessing 4th level spells since the Animal Domain allows you to cast Summon Nature's Ally IV (or you can take that ACF that allows Cleric's to spontaneously cast domain spells), which enables you to qualify for the Greensinger Initiate feat. And now you qualify for Planar Shepherd as early as level 13th I'd think.

So upon reaching higher levels, specifically level 17, a Cleric can do anything a Druid can (apart from having an alignment restriction and having a different list of spells to access, but both get pretty kickass spells) and sometimes even better.

[IlPazzo]

Nonsense. A Druid could get turn attempts and go DMM if that's how you compare them. She could then share the now persistent shapechange with it's animal companion, thus still doing the wild shape game better than the Cleric. She also gets to cast spells in forms that can't speak or manipulate material components. Also, the Cleric has several ways to get "persistent" minions, but summon monster is not persistable.

I'd say you have to define how you want to compare the classes.

It also depends on what optimization level you want to look at.
Very high optimization is a weird place where both class can get ludicrous things. Think infinite loops or spontaneous casting of whole spell lists.
At no optimization the Cleric falls behind and often becomes an healbot. I've seen many newbies not having any remote idea on how to play an effective Cleric. On the meanwhile, the Druid is more straightforward.

I personally believe the Cleric is stronger at a moderate optimization level when focused on particular tasks due to having a more "wizardly" spell list, but the Druid fits more party roles at once.

... then again, are you attempting to start a religion war?

[Unbeliever]

As IlPazzo said above, the OP made some rules errors.  And, the rubric seems to be at 17th level, which is definitely a rubric, but not a particularly helpful one.  Most games aren't at that level.

I'd say Druids are probably the more powerful overall, if that's what we mean by "better," although Clerics easily clear my hurdle of "can I make this class too powerful for any given game so I have to pull back anyway."  That is, a Cleric is plenty powerful for my practical optimization needs.

I think the OP undersells the firepower possible from the Animal Companion -- share spells with the Druid list is enormously potent, not to mention various feats if you want to focus on that.  And, Wild Shape is a potent ability that comes online fairly early on the level chart. 

To me, I'd come to the opposite conclusion of the OP for mostly the same reason:  if the Druid really wants, she can do everything the Cleric can.  She can heal pretty well, she can be a front line combatant, and she can use DMM with a single dip that doesn't lose her spellcasting. 

All that being said, I don't know how much utility there is to this sort of debate.  First, both classes are extremely powerful.  So, you don't really have to worry.  You could just go with your gut or your mood and your character will be tough enough for any game this side of sanity.  Second, we're talking about generic base classes here, and not really builds, and it's builds that matter.  This also might explain some of the Druid's edge -- the Druid base class has a lot more going on than the Cleric one.  Comparing Cleric to Druid is a lot different from comparing Cleric/Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist to Druid/Planar Shepherd.  And, if we're going to look at the most powerful iterations of the builds, then as noted above, we're going to get into a place where there's so much firepower that it's hard to assess anything.

[KellKheraptis]

If we're going to the higher/highest levels of OP with both classes, the action abuse and damage output advantage of the Planar Shepherd is nullified by perma-AMF, as it's a bit harder to get the requisite +90 or +99 to the check and the needed MDJ to take it down.  That being said, a Cleric has an easier time picking up the most abusive spells in the game, but REALLY it's all a moot point if Shapechange is in the equation, as that opens up psionics and the abuses of Wizard/Sorc divination.

Short answer - the Cleric has a few slight advantages, but with the right buffs/spells/feats, it's irrelevant, as they will ultimately stalemate after blowing up the planet.

[SorO_Lost]

If we're going to the higher/highest levels of OP with both classes, the action abuse and damage output advantage of the Planar Shepherd is nullified by perma-AMF,

And Planar Shepherd, an entire Druid PrC, is completely outdone by Planar Bubble, a mere 7th level Cleric Spell.

Unfortunately, it's easy to write off the Animal Companion being useful at level 1 to be better than the much harder to quantify superior Spell List and the ease in which a Cleric expands it to obtain even more of the already undoubtedly superior Wizard's list.

[phaedrusxy]

At low levels, the druid is likely more powerful due to getting a fighter as a class feature to go along with his full spellcasting. Plus Entangle completely WTFPWNs most low level encounters that start outdoors.

At the mid levels, if the cleric (ab)uses Animate Dead and/or DMM: Persistent, he could pull ahead. If not, the druid likely still wins, because he's a bear with a pet bear who summons bears.

At the higher levels, both can easily reach completely game-breaking levels of power. So it hardly even has any practical meaning to argue it.

[SorO_Lost]

At the mid levels, if the cleric (ab)uses Animate Dead and/or DMM: Persistent, he could pull ahead. If not, the druid likely still wins, because he's a bear with a pet bear who summons bears.

Bear kind of seals the deal doesn't it? Yes the Druid turns into an animal and summons more animals with some awakened trees for some treehugging hippy fun, in the higher end it goes primal on you and busts out extinct dinosaurs made out of wood and teeth.

But the Cleric can rip open a hole to hell and summon the demonic hordes of the abyss to leave a trail of death and dinosaur corpses, which can be promptly animated to join the front line. And if that isn't enough the Cleric just forces his deity to intervene in the cosmic equivalent of my dad can beat up your dad.

[KellKheraptis]

A couple of CL boosts can nab a Planetar from Draconic Polymorph at level 9...

[muktidata]

Pointless thread..

[phaedrusxy]

Pointless thread..

When you get down to it, EVERY thread is a pointless thread.

[stanprollyright]

From an objective, holistic standpoint, Druid is a "better" class.  In a low-level, low-op, low-wealth, core-only game the Druid reigns supreme...at high-level, high-op, high-wealth, with all game material available, the Druid is still in the top 3.  Level 1? Druid is THE most powerful class.  In a jail cell, naked as the day you were born? Druid is the best; no spellbook or holy symbol required.  Everyone spends half their feats on Toughness?  Yup, Druid still comes out on top.  Core-only, no PrCs?  Eh, toss-up.  Druid is more versatile, at least.  Level 20?  Toss-up.  Slight cleric advantage at high-op.  High-op, with everything?  Toss-up.  Slight Cleric advantage at high levels.

[muktidata]

Pointless thread..

When you get down to it, EVERY thread is a pointless thread.

I generally hate "what's more powerful" threads, but honestly I'd prefer a Fighter v Wizard thread to Druid v Cleric. Why compare the gods?

[Keldar]

Its called CoDzilla for a reason.  Because both classes can stomp a mudhole in a game right out of the PHB like a giant radioactive dinosaur.

But druids have a slightly easier time actually becoming an actual giant radioactive dinosaur.  Or turtles all the way down.  Different strokes for different folks.

[Endarire]

Based on my knowledge and preferences, I lean toward Druid more favorably.  Planar Shepherd does also have the "Wild shape into Outsiders, Magical Beasts, and Elementals of your chosen plane" thing (which is generally more balanced than 'Planar Bubble of extra turns!').  Druid also feels tremendously versatile, and remains versatile throughout due to Wild Shape, animal companion, and spells, and can even multiclass into certain PrCs (like Contemplative1) to get domains.

[SorO_Lost]

and can even multiclass into certain PrCs (like Contemplative1) to get domains.

Speaking of multiclassing, Divine Minion & Dragon/Aberrant Wild Shape. At ECL 2 it can access the Young White Dragon (all four forms of movement) or double Standard Actions (choker) and so on.

Except well,

(which is generally more balanced than 'Planar Bubble of extra turns!')

Like Planar Bubble, it's so broken it get's excluded from general discussions.

That's two things banned for make a Druid feel more useful so far.

[Snowbluff]

and can even multiclass into certain PrCs (like Contemplative1) to get domains.

Speaking of multiclassing, Divine Minion & Dragon/Aberrant Wild Shape. At ECL 2 it can access the Young White Dragon (all four forms of movement) or double Standard Actions (choker) and so on.

Uh, white dragon is weaksauce for that. You want Gem Dragons, which get all four and Blindsight. Not to mention that pretty much all of them have better breath weapons, like the Crystal Dragon (untyped damage and Blind) and Sapphire (sonic damage and panicked).

Can you tell I just made an Arcane Hierophant that uses Dragon Wild Shape?

[Endarire]

Dragon Wild Shape requires 15 ranks of Knowledge (Nature).  How are you getting that at level 2?

[SorO_Lost]

Dragon Wild Shape requires 15 ranks of Knowledge (Nature).  How are you getting that at level 2?

Which one doesn't require the Skill Ranks then?

Edit - Aberration Wild Shape
And "Proportionate Wild Shape" allows Divine Minion to choose any Animal of the same Size they are.

[eggynack]

Depends on level, I think. Druids have better class features, with wild shape, the animal companion, and spontaneous summoning generally outclassing turn undead, domain powers, and spontaneous healing, even when you make use of DMM. Clerics, once you take domains into account, probably have a better list. So, when class features hold greater sway, in the earlier level range, the druid is superior, but when simple spell access is the sole determinant of power for the most part the cleric pulls ahead. It's kinda like the druid versus wizard comparison, except the two classes here are closer together in both list and class features.

However, I think that may be changing somewhat, with more advanced optimization technology. Aberration wild shape is absolutely absurd, allowing access to a smorgasbord of incredibly powerful abilities for only two feats and an occasional enhance wild shape casting, the holt warden+contepmlative combination narrows the gap created by domains by quite a bit (because the first domain is a lot more interesting than the third or fourth), and spells like fey ring, animate with the spirit, and even summon fey if you wanna go extra obscure and kinda second party. Druids are sweet in a way that's often obscured by the chant of the recursive bears. Might be cause I've been in druid world for so long, but it's getting harder to see what a cleric is doing that's all that much better than that.

[SorO_Lost]

So, when class features hold greater sway, in the earlier level range, the druid is superior, but when simple spell access is the sole determinant of power for the most part the cleric pulls ahead.

It's kind of more than that through.

Like you just undersold Turn Undead & Domains. It's not that the Cleric's Class Features suck but his Spell List is so damn good it's easy to forget how campaign breaking Turn Undead (specially DMM) and Domains (command misc types, +20 charisma, trapfinding clerics, etc) can be and the Cleric starts with them instead of needing to progress.