[3.5] Druid vs Cleric, which is "better"?

[Kaelik]

Shapechange cheese goes both ways since the cleric can also play that game by picking up the Nature domain.

Oh good, Schroedinger's Domains right away. Yes, I'm sure you took a Domain which granted you pretty much fuck all nothing for 16 levels so that you could Shapechange at level 17.

And one key 9th level spell that shapechange won't give you is Gate. Cleric calls army of wyrm dragons using only core material, cleric wins. If shapechange is on the table, all bets are off.

If you are allowed to gate cheese, then Druids can Gate cheese, and they don't even have to spend XP for the first one, because they just Shapechange into a Zodar, Wish up a staff of Gate, and go to town.

For lower levels, another massive advantage you forgot from cleric is the planar ally line of spells. Druid can keep his bears, cleric can party with angels and infernals along the wizard.

Oh wow, the Cleric can pay actual money for Angels to help him out for a couple minutes, hours, or days... pass. I mean, if you thought that was a good idea, why didn't you just use Planar Binding, so that they are compelled to help you and don't cost anything. I mean, surely you have the Demonic Domain, because you have all domains. Of course, the Druid can also get the Demonic Domain and Planar Bind things, so if called army cheese is allowed, the Druid can do it as well as the Cleric, but who cares.

Being able to bring your allies back to life in their original body is also pretty nice last time I checked.

Being able to bring your party back to life in different bodies is also even better last time I checked. If you aren't picking a race with huge mental stats and then Last Breath cheesing to get a Dwarf body why even try.

[SorO_Lost]

When it comes to the spell lists Druids are better at:

Hi Welcome.

This thread really has devolved into people trolling each other hasn't it?

[eggynack]

Being able to bring your allies back to life in their original body is also pretty nice last time I checked.

Druids can kinda do that too, through animate with the spirit for a movanic deva.

Hi Welcome.

This thread really has devolved into people trolling each other hasn't it?

Well, I do disagree with his exact list (debuffing makes very little sense, among others), but I do think the druid list has its stack of advantages. Granted, the cleric can get past a couple of those advantages at a time through domains, but it'd be pretty difficult to get perfect matching.

[Kaelik]

Just remember kids, assert that Clerics have the better spell list without every actually comparing lists. Then name drop 400 domains spells on 300 domains when anyone actually does talk about specific spells. This is totally the way to prove a point.

Also assert that Clerics can get Wildshape soooo easy, but the Druids have to give up sooo much to get Turn undead, because everyone knows that la is a low cost all the time, and that a few k in gold is really just too much.

Comparing the spells is not at all necessary to determine who has better spells for a specific thing, just assert that Clerics are better without comparison and then call anyone who disagrees with you in any way a troll.

[eggynack]

Oh wow, the Cleric can pay actual money for Angels to help him out for a couple minutes, hours, or days... pass. I mean, if you thought that was a good idea, why didn't you just use Planar Binding, so that they are compelled to help you and don't cost anything. I mean, surely you have the Demonic Domain, because you have all domains. Of course, the Druid can also get the Demonic Domain and Planar Bind things, so if called army cheese is allowed, the Druid can do it as well as the Cleric, but who cares.

What? I mean, if I'm reading you right, you're critiquing DDchampion for not just using planar binding, and then criticizing him for leaning on domains too hard in order to make use of planar binding. That's some pretty ridiculous stuff right there. See, what ya wanna do is point to druidic minionmancy that doesn't rely on using up one of the few domains a druid can get access to through prestige classes, to match the domain-less cleric minionmancy. For that purpose, I'd advise animate with the spirit for a movanic deva, and fey ring for a siabrie. Not quite a thing with the depth of cleric minionmancy, but the power level is definitely there on those creatures.

Just remember kids, assert that Clerics have the better spell list without every actually comparing lists.

Weren't you essentially doing the same, albeit in support of a less extreme position, when you claimed druid superiority in a number of fields without listing any spells in support of that notion? Not to say that it was necessarily a bad thing that you did that, but doing it and criticizing others for the same is somewhat problematic. Granted, you'd need a pretty long post to justify all of your claims, but, well, that's just what ya gotta do sometimes. If you don't feel you can justify the sheer scope of your claims, then make less all encompassing claims.

Here's an example of how not to do that. Druids are better at teleporting. On a long distance level, this is supported by spells like stormwalk and master earth, while on a tactical level it's supported by spells like shuffle and unicorn heart, and by the feat exalted wild shape for blink dog form. Without choosing a domain for the purpose, a cleric cannot hope to match those effects without serious effort. See? Now, I have a position staked out, and if the cleric side seeks to have my claims not be true they'll need citations to match. Perhaps they'll come with those citations, or perhaps not, but either way it's a comment that demands discourse on the level you seem to seek.

[Kaelik]

What? I mean, if I'm reading you right, you're critiquing DDchampion for not just using planar binding, and then criticizing him for leaning on domains too hard in order to make use of planar binding. That's some pretty ridiculous stuff right there. See, what ya wanna do is point to druidic minionmancy that doesn't rely on using up one of the few domains a druid can get access to through prestige classes, to match the domain-less cleric minionmancy. For that purpose, I'd advise animate with the spirit for a movanic deva, and fey ring for a siabrie. Not quite a thing with the depth of cleric minionmancy, but the power level is definitely there on those creatures.

I'm criticizing him for pretending the game is even playable at all with minionmancy unless you deliberately gimp yourself. Everyone can just use Planar Binding to obtain an arbitrarily large army of monsters of higher CR than they themselves are. So if your DM allows that at all, then you have 40 Glabrezu who do all your adventuring for you while you sit in your house. The ability of the Cleric to cast a spell to pay some money to mimic that same game breaking for a short time is both not actually that good (hence why I criticized it) and also completely game breaking while in use. Hence not even worth talking about, since... See Glabrezu comment.

Weren't you essentially doing the same, albeit in support of a less extreme position, when you claimed druid superiority in a number of fields without listing any spells in support of that notion?

Maybe you should read the rest of the post? Some sentences are the necessary set up for other sentences, so for example "call anyone who disagrees with you a troll" doesn't make any sense if you don't explain what the position actually is in the first place.

As to my specific claims... Meh, feel free to disagree with them, I had so many, that I'd personally prefer to just state all of them and then address any that people disagree with. But given that Druids get Scrying, and Clerics get Commune and Divination, and that Druids get a lot of long duration personal or single target buffs at lower levels or as the only person who gets them, where Clerics get lots of shorter duration party wide buffs, which is one reason that Clerics benefit more from DMM Persist (although perhaps not as much as Wizards). Druids get tons of really big AoE BC, Clerics just mostly don't.

[eggynack]

I'm criticizing him for pretending the game is even playable at all with minionmancy unless you deliberately gimp yourself. Everyone can just use Planar Binding to obtain an arbitrarily large army of monsters of higher CR than they themselves are. So if your DM allows that at all, then you have 40 Glabrezu who do all your adventuring for you while you sit in your house. The ability of the Cleric to cast a spell to pay some money to mimic that same game breaking for a short time is both not actually that good (hence why I criticized it) and also completely game breaking while in use. Hence not even worth talking about, since... See Glabrezu comment.

That argument wasn't present anywhere in the post that I can see. But even if it were, you can make that claim with reference to anything. The game isn't playable at all, in any sense, unless you deliberately gimp yourself. Claiming that specifically with reference to planar ally is therefore meaningless.

Maybe you should read the rest of the post? Some sentences are the necessary set up for other sentences, so for example "call anyone who disagrees with you a troll" doesn't make any sense if you don't explain what the position actually is in the first place.

Well, yeah, you needed some evidence to support your claim that you weren't the one trolling. Your evidence was just really limited in nature. I don't see anything in the rest of your post that really justifies that part of the post.

As to my specific claims... Meh, feel free to disagree with them, I had so many, that I'd personally prefer to just state all of them and then address any that people disagree with.

Exactly my point. You felt that it was fine to do the same thing you disagreed with others doing.
 

But given that Druids get Scrying

Clerics also get scrying. They get it worse, but they get it.

and Clerics get Commune and Divination

And this, in addition to them definitely having scrying, in addition to a number of other divination spells, definitely puts clerics ahead in the divination game on most points.

[Kaelik]

Exactly my point. You felt that it was fine to do the same thing you disagreed with others doing.

So what you are saying is that even after I specifically told you what I was disagreeing with others doing you still have no idea what I was saying... Sure, whatever, calling people a troll is totally exactly the same as making statements about the general efficiencies of each list. Exactly the same thing.

And this, in addition to them definitely having scrying, in addition to a number of other divination spells, definitely puts clerics ahead in the divination game on most points.

Yeah, almost like I specifically listed that as something the Cleric list is better at or something.

[eggynack]

So what you are saying is that even after I specifically told you what I was disagreeing with others doing you still have no idea what I was saying... Sure, whatever, calling people a troll is totally exactly the same as making statements about the general efficiencies of each list. Exactly the same thing.

But calling you a troll wasn't the thing being criticized there. Yes, you were critical of people calling you a troll, but you were also apparently critical of people making claims without support. You didn't really have to have that there if your only problem was the troll call. Coulda just said, I dunno, "Calling me a troll seems pretty meaningless, and you've refuted none of my points." Done in one sentence. Instead, you chose to bring up all this other stuff. I'm fine with the anti-troll part. Dunno if you're some variety of troll, and I suspect you're not one, but I don't really care either way. I only care about the other stuff, y'know, the supporting claims with regard to druid/cleric comparison, and I think you're being hypocritical with regards to that point.

Yeah, almost like I specifically listed that as something the Cleric list is better at or something.

But the thing is, if getting scrying two levels earlier is your only claimed druid asset, then clerics are probably ahead where finding folks is concerned too. Scrying only gives you some information about what's going on with the target creature. It's not a perfect person finder. Thus, the cleric's support network of divination spells gives them an edge when it comes to even figuring out where people are. Especially because part of that edge is the spell discern location. Basically, druids have a two level period where they're possibly better at finding people, and they're worse for the entire rest of their existence.

[SorO_Lost]

I feel like egg's role has reversed. >.>

Anyway, @Kaelik if you want a Spell example. Well you only posted one, Shapechanging into a Zodar for a once per year Wish that has the limitation of being so subtle no one knows that you even cast one in the first place. Well, per XP-to-GP rates an 11th level Cleric can use Planar Ally to summon an Efreeti and pay the cost of 750gp per wish in order to access an unlimited Wish six levels faster and over one thousand and ninety two times more often than "your" Druid trick.

And it gets even better. At the 3rd level a Cleric can have 7 Ranks in K-Religion, buy a +2 circumstance Masterwork Tool for 50gp, and cast Guidance of the Avatar for a +20 competence bonus. Even at 10 Int the Cleric's 1d20+29 check has a 70% chance to be granted a free Greater Planar Ally Spell using Sacrifice rules. So now we've made the Spell free and it works fourteen levels sooner than your trick. The kicker here is that even through this is a Skill-based Trick, the Druid cannot access GotA without UMDing a Wand made for him by a Cleric, the Druid also has no native access to Sadism/Masochism, Divine Insight, & Willing Sacrifice (but the cleric does) and according to Eggynack's Handbook there isn't even a Druid AFC that makes Knowledge(religion) a Class Skill for the Druid. It's not that a Druid can't use the trick per se, they can use it better than using your dumb Zodar trick from GitP, but they use it undeniably slower than most other classes out there.

Oh, and I didn't even have to pick a Domain to pull your trick off fourteen levels sooner and one thousand and ninety two times more often than the one that you just thought made the Druid just so awesome. 

[Kaelik]

If your DM let's people get wishes before level 17, then everyone can get infinite wishes at level 3. I just do not care about your ability to use some dumb rules that lets you cast level a level 8 spell at level 3. If you can cast level 8 spells at level 3, then everyone everywhere can break the game and who cares. If you are using it to get Wish, then double who the fuck cares, because every level 3 character in the game can get a staff of wishes and a +999999999 competence bonus to UMD item.

This is what I am talking about. No one actually wants to talk about what the Druid spell list and the Cleric spell list actually do, you want to futz around with bullshit. Who fucking cares, I already said that if your DM allows DMM Persist but doesn't allow more powerful things the Cleric is probably better. If your DMM doesn't allow DMM Persist, then the Druid is better, Spoiler Alert, if your DM draws the line at DMM Persist, he's not letting you cast an 8th level spell at level 3 so you can start wishing. If your DM does allow level 3 characters to start wishing, then the Druid is just as good as the Cleric, because they both have infinity wishes and infinity items that cost infinity gold each, and no one anywhere gives a fucking shit.

Also, I love how you pretend that Shapechange doesn't allow you to turn into a different Zodar with a different once per year Wish, because even when pulling out really dumb TO shit, you still have to disingenuously pretend that there are limits on the Druid that aren't there.

[eggynack]

I feel like egg's role has reversed. >.>

Somewhat, yeah. Just how it goes sometimes. I mean, to some extent, ya gotta defend your position also from other people saying weird stuff from its perspective. Otherwise the position becomes weakened by things that actually are strawman arguments.

According to Eggynack's Handbook there isn't even a Druid AFC that makes Knowledge(religion) a Class Skill for the Druid.

 
My preference with regards to that goal, for the record, is taking a dip in holt warden. You get the skill, and then also get a pile of fancy spell slots which can be used for summoning, and then you can use the ranks to enter contemplative and fill those slots with stuff from the spell domain.

This is what I am talking about. No one actually wants to talk about what the Druid spell list and the Cleric spell list actually do, you want to futz around with bullshit.

I do. I care about that stuff so much. Say cool things comparing the two, and I'll be right here to discuss those things with you. The thing is, you're the one who isn't really talking about comparative list stuff, or comparative anything stuff right now. I don't think I see a single thing in your post that does the thing that you're criticizing others for not doing in their posts. I have a whole little section of my previous post built around assessing your claims as regards divinations, and you've just kinda ignored it so you can talk about how little people are talking about the thing I was talking about.

[Kaelik]

I don't think I see a single thing in your post that does the thing that you're criticizing others for not doing in their posts.

Wholly fucking shit, can you seriously pull your head out of your ass. When someone tells you "I was criticizing X not Y" that's when you stop whining about how they also do Y. I just ignored it when you did it a fucking gain, in the hope that you would shut the fuck up about it, but no, you are super committed to repeatedly criticizing me for the completely unrelated to the current conversation and also completely fucking wrong charge of hypocrisy that I already refuted in every fucking post. Shut the fuck up.

[eggynack]

Wholly fucking shit, can you seriously pull your head out of your ass. When someone tells you "I was criticizing X not Y" that's when you stop whining about how they also do Y. I just ignored it when you did it a fucking gain, in the hope that you would shut the fuck up about it, but no, you are super committed to repeatedly criticizing me for the completely unrelated to the current conversation and also completely fucking wrong charge of hypocrisy that I already refuted in every fucking post. Shut the fuck up.

What are you talking about? You literally just started criticizing people for not talking about these spell lists, and instead futzing around with overpowered stuff. You seem to have this thing you want to talk about, that being the relative value of these spell lists. But, y'know, you're not talking about that at all either. You're acting like you're not a major determining factor in the discourse, but the fact is that you could talk about this thing you want to talk about, and that'd probably be a conversation we'd have.

Because honestly, you keep saying that this isn't the thing you're talking about, but then it seems like you keep talking about it. Not sure what to make of that. It seems likely that you're just really bad at getting your intended message across. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter what it is you want not to happen. It doesn't matter if the thing you'd prefer not to do is talk around spell lists or talk TO rather than PO. What matters is what you are talking about, and how that thing is absolutely not spell lists in a PO environment. Is that not what you want? Is the thing you want not more classical spell comparisons, leaving aside craziness? Because if that's what you want, that's not a thing you're pushing towards. And if that's not what you want, then you really have to try start replacing some of the meaningless cursing with some words that point towards your intended meaning.

[SorO_Lost]

Also, I love how you pretend that Shapechange doesn't allow you to turn into a different Zodar with a different once per year Wish, because even when pulling out really dumb TO shit, you still have to disingenuously pretend that there are limits on the Druid that aren't there.

lol I knew you're go there.

Actually the RAW text of the ability states "Once per year, a zodar can alter reality as if it had just cast a wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice.", but a Elven Druid using Shapechange isn't truly a Zodar, after all they still have a +0 LA entry from Elven obviously, so strict RAW actually opposes you. Handled as %creature_name%, allowing anyone to use Shapechange or Assume Supernatural Ability, fully keeps the once per year limit intact and fully matches all intents of the multiple authors that wrote the materials for this to happen. And another the thing is, you can't prove you turn into a different Zodar each time either as a rebuttal. So what you're pushing isn't TO but unsupported houserules.

And speaking of overpowered stuff
A 3rd level Druid posts a hiring ad at the local pub, his follow Fighter & Barbarian party members died and he would like to replace his meat shields and treasure carriers. A 2nd level Cleric applies, they meet, they save a goat, ding they both gain a level, they return back to the city. All the time the Druid brags about how his Class Features are better than some entire Classes. Once in the city the Druid asks the lower level Cleric what he wants to do and he says he wants to pray over their recent adventure, the Druid agrees and figures he is totally the most powerful Class in the game and solos a minor adventure taking him halfway to the 5th level. Feeling pretty awesome about him self he returns a day later to see if the Cleric is done.

And he sees four men that look just like him wearing Princess-Leia-bikinis carrying a massive chair, on it is the Cleric with his pants down and another copy of him on his knees in front of the Cleric if you catch my drift. Animal Companions fill the room. Feeling betrayed the Druid yells at the Cleric asking him why he'd do this, he thought they were friends. The Cleric turns to him, looks him dead in the eye, and says, "No, you're a material component."
~Archdruid Treehugger McWhiner on his alliance with Generic Cleric #8,679,593 & Summon Mirror Mephit

[Kaelik]

Actually the RAW text of the ability states "Once per year, a zodar can alter reality as if it had just cast a wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice.", but a Elven Druid using Shapechange isn't truly a Zodar, after all they still have a +0 LA entry from Elven obviously, so strict RAW actually opposes you. Handled as %creature_name%, allowing anyone to use Shapechange or Assume Supernatural Ability, fully keeps the once per year limit intact and fully matches all intents of the multiple authors that wrote the materials for this to happen. And another the thing is, you can't prove you turn into a different Zodar each time either as a rebuttal. So what you're pushing isn't TO but unsupported houserules.

1) Let's be clear, your first wish can literally be for a staff of wishes, so no one actually cares.
2) The ability says that a specific creature can do something. If you turn into that creature, you gain it's ability to do something. Your argument is unclear, so I don't know whether you are arguing that a Druid the Shapechanges into a Black Dragon can't breath acid, because he's not a Black dragon, or if you are arguing that a Druid that turns into a black dragon and uses a breath weapon can't turn into a different dragon and breath a different breath weapon next round because "His" breath weapon is still on cooldown, but both of those are wrong.
3) Yes, aside from the text of the spell which states that Shapechange allows you to turn into "assume the form of any single nonunique creature" Thus proving that I can turn into both Jim the Zodar, and Bob the Zodar, Aside from the actual text of the actual spell, nothing proves that I can turn into a different Zodar.

[SorO_Lost]

1) If no one cares and you still posted, what's that make you?
Also, the overarching point is Cleric vs Druid and the Cleric wins through a ten level or greater advantage making this fundamentally a strawman.

3) "assume the form of any single nonunique creature"
Funny how pushing Ctrl+B can change how a message reads doesn't it?

Also you forgot "This spell functions like polymorph,", which is important because Polymorph is based off Alter Self which
"You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check."
What this passage says is choosing a wolf with black hair or a wolf with gray hair is the exact same form.  And you seem to think that there are multiple Zodar forms, be it for the reasons of one for each minute characteristic or usage of Su/SLAs, available to choose when there is rule text that directly implies otherwise.

Also, you're forgetting Shapechange has the Polymorph Subschool. The Spell description can override the School, but anything unmentioned is still inherited. Including the breakdown explanation that the caster takes on the form's statistics & special abilities. Which doesn't at all say the caster becomes a new individual or inherits a new individualism from changing his form which is what you think it does. And it's not implied in any of the shape-altering Spells, not even the Greater/Etheral Doppelgangers and they literally copy the entire memory and skills of their available forms.

Which is technically a good thing because if we followed your interpretation then upon casting Shapechange to become a new individualized Zodar then you'd lose the benefits of say Mind Blank because you are an entirely different individual than the Spell was cast on. Your ruling would further go on to affect on ton of stuff like Magical Locations (the new form never visited those places!), Teamwork benefits, Spell buffs, reputation (see cityscape), and even loss of Divine Spells (you may keep 'spellcasting' but Obad-Hai didn't grant New_Zodar any Spells and New_Zodar didn't pray and prepare anything either) and while that'd really help the Cleric side of the argument by nerfing the crap out of any Druid that using a shape-changing effect, I can't help but think you are just fucking retarded and shouting stupid crap without actually thinking about any of it first.

[eggynack]

3) "assume the form of any single nonunique creature"
Funny how pushing Ctrl+B can change how a message reads doesn't it?

As I recall, the counterargument tends to be that, as the text says, the creature is necessarily nonunique. That means that you can't become this specific zodar which has used up its wish. Instead, you're becoming some arbitrary zodar, and arbitrary zodars have their wish. The counter-counterargument, as I again recall, is that the countdown isn't tied to the nature of the arbitrary zodar, but is instead tied to you, because you're the zodar, and you never become a Jim or Bob at all, but instead a new Player-zodar. The counter-counter-counterargument is generally that, whether you are the one who is the zodar or not, the countdown on the ability resets by dint of the wish being tied to the form rather than to yourself. Kinda circles around pointlessly from there, usually. It's a really boring rules argument, as rules arguments go, in other words. Form swapping is just really wonky and not clearly defined.

[Lycanthromancer]

Since shapeshifting magic from Alter Self on up allows you to choose the physical traits of the forms you take and grants a +10 bonus to Disguise to look like a specific creature, I'd say you can take the shape of a different zodar each round.

[SorO_Lost]

I'd say you can take the shape of a different zodar each round.

That's the misunderstanding right there, you can choose multiple shapes but according to the rules you can only choose one type of form. Eg a Zodar with helmet horns may be a different shape than one with no helmet horns, but it's still the same form. And the mechanical traits granted are per your form choice, not your minor shape alterations. You personally have made the terms equal to each other which is contrary to what the rules state.

@Eggy, your observation of how a typical debate is built on the fallacy that you can assume the form of a Zodar that only occurs 00.003% of the time in probability. What I mean is "the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form" per the Polymorph Subschool's expanded text and Shapechange's notation of none-unique isn't contrary so you have to follow both of those specifications. At any given Encounter on any given day with any given Zodar, there is a three hundred and sixty four chance to one that it's unable to use it's Wish ability because it's already used it, or in other words statically speaking your average Zodar cannot use it's Wish ability in a given Encounter unless it's specifically be inactive or nonexistent because the DM invented it ten seconds ago, which sounds pretty unique now doesn't it?

But even built on that ASS-U-ption you can see all the errors it creates, the pointless bickering back and forth on language debates which are in turn based on ignore entire sentences of rule's text and the further debates and complications it creates. And for what? As I already mentioned, if continued leads down the path of causation that if Shapechange allows you to become a new individual on each usage than using it would mean everything using Mr Druid as the target isn't targeting the new Zodar. You lose more than you'd gain if everyone magically decided to side that it's possible. Free Wishes was a thing ten levels ago and if a Druid really wanted to have the option it'd consider dipping something like Contemplative or something for Planar Binding/Ally and actually using a choice that is fully supported by the rules and can actually be proven to be true. >.>