looking for twice-betrayer slayer

[Ryabede]

hay all.. i've been looking for the twice-betrayer slayer build for quite awhile now.   My link to brilliantgameologists.com boards has been failing me as of recent.
any help would be appreciated =)
thank you

[SorO_Lost]

Eh, it's basically just
Race: Human
Class: Cleric 1 / Human Paragon 3 / Shadow Adept 1 / Ruathar 3 / Contemplative 6 / Divine Disciple 4
Feats: Extend/Persistent/Reach/Ocular Spell,  Divine Metamagic(reach/ocular/persist), Shadow Weave Magic, Tenacious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Insidious Magic, & Initiate of Mystra.
Essentially Spell + Persist + Reach + Ocular and doesn't work because it's bad TO so really the only thing important out of the entire thing is Initiate of Mystra's ability to ignore an AMF.

The lesser version, but available to Arcane casters, is Extraordinary Spell Aim which allows you to be completely unaffected by your own AMF, but through flavor/intent you are not actually in the AMF so you still need a method to invalidate targeting, like Total-Concealment/Cover or Wings of Cover.

[Ryabede]

that looks like the twice-betrayed

at some point he made oozaru, the twice-betrayed slayer.   this is what I was looking for...
but tyvm anyway.

also,   any clue why Ruathar is in that?

[KellKheraptis]

that looks like the twice-betrayed

at some point he made oozaru, the twice-betrayed slayer.   this is what I was looking for...
but tyvm anyway.

also,   any clue why Ruathar is in that?

My Twice Betrayer Slayer is a Red Wizard, that then goes on to abuse the hell out of CL tricks to get a CL check of 100+.  It should be noted that a natural evolution of the TBoS would be to incorporate Dweomerkeeper and making the AMF a Su spell, and thus immune to even a CL 100 MDJ - but my new Chrono-Legionnaire build I have almost finished has a way around it as a psion build (and actually, a far weaker build can do it, but this one is also meant to down a Heca and pass the 10x100 with the same build).

EDIT: Here's the red wiz build (last page after the Spellthief crap - too many arguments and vague rules, and I wanted these guys to be ironclad TBoS killers, thus Red Wizard) : https://web.archive.org/web/20151203193036/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8935.60

[SorO_Lost]

also,   any clue why Ruathar is in that?

Yeah, and the answer is it's not a very optimized build.

Just replace half the levels with Dweomerkeeper, or maybe claim the Initiate Feat applies to all Spells and dip Cleric on top of a Shadowcraft/Incantatrix build, or get creative and double check Initiate rules to see if you can lose your Cleric abilities and still use the Feat allowing you to combine Ur-Priest & Sublime Chord with Mental Pinnacle for triple 9s. The Sky is the limit.

Edit - Also a high CL doesn't actually prevent your opponent from dispelling your Spells, Disjunction is based on a Will Save and only it's ability to breech AMF is based off your CL. Without extreme Will Save optimization Disjunction will shred through your Persisted Spells. Like say you have a 75% chance of success against a normal SoD effect which seems pretty good right? Well that same average means that one in every four Persisted Spells you have up are removed and three~four magic items become useless.

[KellKheraptis]

Note also that the Twice-Betrayer and Cheater have to beat the CL/ML of any AMF they encounter as well - meaning a high enough ML on Null Psionic Field turns the TBoS into a kitten with a bunch of feats

[SorO_Lost]

Well and to be fair Initiate of Mystra affects Antimagic Field and not Antimagic in general, maybe there is a good case for intent since it works on Dead Magic but as it stands you can completely counter the "Twice Betrayer" by casting an Antimagic Aura on a swarm and just letting them chase the Cleric.

[The_Laughing_Man]

One funny tidbit I noticed a while ago:

While no temporary repair of a dead magic area is
known, a wish or miracle spell permanently repairs the
Weave within 30 feet of its point of origin (which must be
outside the dead magic area, of course). A character with
the Tenacious Magic feat must first make a caster level
check (DC 14) to repair a wild magic area, whether temporarily
or permanently. Multiple spells must be used to
repair larger areas. Theoretically, wish and miracle spells
could be used to create a dead magic area, but none have
come forward with evidence that this is so.

So one could cast wish / miracle to create 30 feet radius dead magic zone near TBoS.. Of course this is on shaky grounds, I know.

[KellKheraptis]

Thinking about it - just about any archmage with a high caster level and 2 levels to spare into Arcane Archer could rag the TBoS by plunking an AMF arrow into him that he can't beat the DC on and then fry him with an Orb spell, mailman style.  I still think it's more fun beating him at his own game, though (and being a hood fan, going Vlad the Impaler is bonus points)

[Keldar]

Rend Shadow Weave (Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 3; Champions of Valor, pg. 57)  creates dead magic zones in the Shadow Weave.  Initiate of Mystra should do nothing to help with that, its the wrong weave. 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Uh. Isn't the shadow-weave the weird magic one and the regular weave the regular magic one? Why would you want to damage the shadow weave? It's been a while since I looked into those.

[KellKheraptis]

Uh. Isn't the shadow-weave the weird magic one and the regular weave the regular magic one? Why would you want to damage the shadow weave? It's been a while since I looked into those.

To be safe, plunk an AMF and a SW-AMF arrow in him or at his feet - easy enough to get two attacks with Arcane Disciple-fueled persistent Divine Power, then for Attack #3, shoot him in the face.  No more buffs = no more Wind Wall to content with (and if you don't hit him with the AMFs, just the ground, it won't bat the arrow away ).

In retrospect, I'm surprised no one took this guy down before my Red Wizard.

EDIT: Spelling...

[Keldar]

Uh. Isn't the shadow-weave the weird magic one and the regular weave the regular magic one? Why would you want to damage the shadow weave? It's been a while since I looked into those.

Because the Twice Betrayer took Shadow Weave Magic, meaning that's the type of Dead Magic Zone that makes them cry like babies while they get to ignore the presence of regular ones.

[Satori]

Whoops, Error, please ignore

[KellKheraptis]

This will just be a build stub, as I don't have time whilst working on a client's post form to fully flesh it out, but a Hathran build should be able to trounce the TBoS with little issue, and also pwn a Heca in much the same way the Dwarven Colossus Archivist did (through a decent buff routine).  It likely with that CL would blow away the 10^100 as well (as at least one Cleric build did, though this wouldn't have Marshall auras and be full 20/20 casting)

Human Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 4/Hathran 5/xxx Divine with nice abilities 6 (can be more than one class)

This gets us supernatural spell for +5 to all stats, circle magic, and with Earth Sense and Earth Spell, at least a +11 CL to each spell slot heightened to 20th.  Mix in a few CL enhancers, cast GCF on an anthill, and voila - CL 100+ MDJ plus something to nuke the now gimped kitten with AC 12.

If we were to flesh this puppy out, it'd likely not qualify for the challenge (though to be fair, being a fellow Initiate wouldn't come into play - we don't need to be close enough for the AMF to matter, only high enough of a CL to cast into it), but getting a free metamagic on every spell and the entire Cleric list spontaneously is utterly bad ass.

[SorO_Lost]

but a Hathran build should be able to trounce the TBoS with little issue,

Well as already brought up there are a few easy ways for Shar to get revenge.

(click to show/hide)

The debuffs
High DC Disjunction: cl is a little subjective, like free-metagic a twin on it and a cl of 50 is enough.
Antimagic Aura on a Swarm: technically mystra feat works on amf not antimagic in general through maybe not so rai.
Rend Shadow Weave: just break their magic using a 3rd level slot.
Iron Heart Surge: break their amf instantly and counter with your own.

The bypasses
Invoke Magic: freely cast 4th level spells into antimagic, dead magic, and even null-magic planar effects.
Deities: salient abilities work just fine in antimagic.

The whole cares
Golems: casters only have a few offensive options and divines have less than arcanes, so just use a bigger stick.

But a better bet would be since your build uses Cleric is just to take the Initiate of Mystra Feat. Now your build is simply a more optimized AMF caster, of course it'd beat the TBoS. 

[KellKheraptis]

but a Hathran build should be able to trounce the TBoS with little issue,

Well as already brought up there are a few easy ways for Shar to get revenge.

(click to show/hide)

The debuffs
High DC Disjunction: cl is a little subjective, like free-metagic a twin on it and a cl of 50 is enough.
Antimagic Aura on a Swarm: technically mystra feat works on amf not antimagic in general through maybe not so rai.
Rend Shadow Weave: just break their magic using a 3rd level slot.
Iron Heart Surge: break their amf instantly and counter with your own.

The bypasses
Invoke Magic: freely cast 4th level spells into antimagic, dead magic, and even null-magic planar effects.
Deities: salient abilities work just fine in antimagic.

The whole cares
Golems: casters only have a few offensive options and divines have less than arcanes, so just use a bigger stick.

But a better bet would be since your build uses Cleric is just to take the Initiate of Mystra Feat. Now your build is simply a more optimized AMF caster, of course it'd beat the TBoS. 

See 3rd paragraph - this was already covered.  I would think a Shadowcraft Mage would have an even easier time of it via any of the 3 methods of circle magic, as it's rather easy to start with a lower level base spell that gets a bigger bonus from Earth Spell.

That being said, I'm curious if it's possible to boost the CL high enough on a Runescarred Berserker to AMF his ass and then turn him into paste with a single big stick on what is generally a non-caster

[OblivionSmurf83]

While we're on this topic, I've always had one problem with the Twice Betrayer of Shar, which is his ability to maintain DMM Persist buffs while in an antimagic field. 

The default rule for an Antimagic Field (per the SRD) is that:

No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic (but extraordinary abilities still work).

Player's Guide to Faerun, at page 81, says that the Initiate:

...can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field...

That is, the ability is only restricted to spells.

Divine Metamagic is (obviously) a divine feat.  Complete Divine, at page 77, says that:

Activating a divine feat is also a supernatural ability.


So, how is the Twice Betrayer using any Divine Metamagic in his antimagic field?  Either:

• the spells are cast before Antimagic Field is cast, which means they are snuffed out (since the wording of Initiate of Mystra doesn't say anything about existing spells being carried into the field); or
• the spells are cast after Antimagic Field is cast, which means that the Twice Betrayer can't use Divine Metamagic with them (since that is a supernatural ability).

This has always bugged me, so what am I missing?

[SorO_Lost]

This has always bugged me, so what am I missing?

The short gist is it sounds like you're crisscrossing RAW & RAI.

Let's suspend the interaction for a moment and simply look at the Initiate of Mystra Feat. It says you can attempt to cast into X, let me ask you this: Can you attempt to use the passive benefits the Feat provides if there isn't an AMF nearby? And let's say you purpose that no you cannot. What do you base that on, the meta-knowledge of you knowing there is an AMF or the Cleric's deduction that the fire went out on his pal's Flaming Longsword isn't the result of them being eaten by a Gelatinous Cube that currently under the effects of Globe of Invulnerability? IE at what point would you allow the Cleric to make his attempt? I'd personally make the attempt every single time I cast a Spell and let the DM resolve things from there but I suppose that's me, but to me it feels like we're more towards quantifying intent & flavor allowing or disallowing use more than anything else.

I suppose it seems like I'm shooting for begging the question here, but I'm really aiming for some critical thinking on your part. So moving more towards the intent of things let me remind you that a Cleric can stand in an AMF and cast Divine Power without MoI. Spellcasting is not a Special Ability nor is it type cast as an Su or SLA and Instantaneous Spell fails but the effects of anything else are merely surpassed for as long as they remain in the AMF so upon walking out of the area the Cleric reaps the full benefit of his Spell just fine. So what is the intent of IoM?

And one last question to really get your noodle going.
What happens if you remove the Divine Feat from things? Say the Cleric casts Divine Power in an AMF, levels, and enters a new AMF. The Spell is now subject to a new AMF and it's not being cast. What happens in your opinion?

[OblivionSmurf83]

This has always bugged me, so what am I missing?

The short gist is it sounds like you're crisscrossing RAW & RAI.

Let's suspend the interaction for a moment and simply look at the Initiate of Mystra Feat. It says you can attempt to cast into X, let me ask you this: Can you attempt to use the passive benefits the Feat provides if there isn't an AMF nearby? And let's say you purpose that no you cannot. What do you base that on, the meta-knowledge of you knowing there is an AMF or the Cleric's deduction that the fire went out on his pal's Flaming Longsword isn't the result of them being eaten by a Gelatinous Cube that currently under the effects of Globe of Invulnerability? IE at what point would you allow the Cleric to make his attempt? I'd personally make the attempt every single time I cast a Spell and let the DM resolve things from there but I suppose that's me, but to me it feels like we're more towards quantifying intent & flavor allowing or disallowing use more than anything else.

I suppose it seems like I'm shooting for begging the question here, but I'm really aiming for some critical thinking on your part. So moving more towards the intent of things let me remind you that a Cleric can stand in an AMF and cast Divine Power without MoI. Spellcasting is not a Special Ability nor is it type cast as an Su or SLA and Instantaneous Spell fails but the effects of anything else are merely surpassed for as long as they remain in the AMF so upon walking out of the area the Cleric reaps the full benefit of his Spell just fine. So what is the intent of IoM?

And one last question to really get your noodle going.
What happens if you remove the Divine Feat from things? Say the Cleric casts Divine Power in an AMF, levels, and enters a new AMF. The Spell is now subject to a new AMF and it's not being cast. What happens in your opinion?

To clarify, is your basic premise that, once a Cleric has successfully cast a spell using the Initiate of Mystra feat, that spell will carry over into any antimagic or dead magic field the Cleric subsequently enters? 

I'm not sure I agree with that, but I'm happy to have it explained to me; assuming that does work, then I don't see any further problems with Divine Metamagic.

Separately (and this is a separate point), in relation to your first paragraph, would you know you've succeeded on the caster level check as soon as you cast the spell?  Or only when you enter an antimagic field?  Does your character know the roll that you have made?