Author Topic: The Chrono-Trancer (Tri-fold Challenge Destroyer and Chrono-Legionaire Prodigy)  (Read 9729 times)

Offline KellKheraptis

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Build Goals: Take out the Twice-Betrayer of Shar without the need to dispel his AMFs (that with a build shuffle are Su anyhow).  Take out a Hecatoncheires with little to no risk to self, dragoon style (the goal of the original Chrono-Legionnaire).  Take on and succeed at the 10^100 challenge.

Further Limitations:
-No Unearthed Arcana or Dragon Magazine material will be used.

-No questionable rules from Master Spellthief and Sublime Chord, or chintzy Mind Mage stacking (which is Dragon mag anyhow).

-No form altering magic used in any of the three challenges - not even the 10^100 for Jumplomancy.

-No abjectly custom magical items - only item stacking at 50% additional price per MiC/DMG item creation rules (e.g. to add Sandals of Springing effect to Boots of Skating, add 9,000gp to the cost of the boots - 150% the cost of the sandals).

-No Leadership used.  Minions are squishy, and while this guy can become a Nasty Gentleman (tm), he won't need to ;)

-Psicrystal Feat Progression left out/vague.  The build certainly gets a few more tricks if this is allowed, but for maximum coverage, works as is using its own feats only.  Feat Leech is included as a power known, however.

Other Notes:
-With the FR specific exceptions to Psi-Magic Transparency (which really don't matter, as there won't be a dead magic zone, only AMF and NPF), standard transparency is assumed.  Magic mantle is not in use, so no questionable rules from that, either.

-The regional feat Battle Jump is taken at 1st level to ensure no quibbles about taking a regional feat using Knowledge (local) ranks, and the 'Boing, Boing, Battle Jump!' trick is not used, though it is certainly an option, should we wish to go down the TO road...

-A time-trait modified demiplane is only utilized as a time-saver for growing the node.  There is no need for planar trait abuse, and with the myriad ways of gaining immortality available to this guy, it's ultimately not even a necessity, just a convenience (though it would take an incredibly long time to grow a Class 18 Earth Node...).

The Build:
(click to show/hide)

Gear:
(click to show/hide)

Notable Powers:
Offensive Prescience, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Force Screen, Inertia Armor, Assimilate, Metaphysical Weapon, Energy Adaptation, Biofeedback, Vigor, Share Pain, Schism, Hustle, Moment of Prescience.  All remaining slots are free for customizing to taste (total 31 from levels, and 18 from a Class 18 Node).

The Buff Sequence
(click to show/hide)

The Twice Betrayer of Shar
(click to show/hide)

The Heca
(click to show/hide)

The 10^100
(click to show/hide)

EDIT: Cross posted as well into the 10^100 challenge thread on You Break It.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 05:18:16 PM by KellKheraptis »

Offline Endarire

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What about using a Torc of Psionic Might (unupdated from 3.0's Psionics Handbook) for 10K instead of the Torc of Power Preservation?

I'm also considering using this sort of character as an end boss to a campaign at level 20ish.  What would this person's/being's motivations be?  Why would they greatly want to destroy/save the world?  How would they be a threat to the world @level 20?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 11:54:44 PM by Endarire »

Offline KellKheraptis

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What about using a Torc of Psionic Might (unupdated from 3.0's Psionics Handbook) for 10K instead of the Torc of Power Preservation?

One of the challenges rules that out I -think-, but I'm not certain.  I'll check into it.  I was deliberately avoiding the big offenders, like Persistent Power, though frankly if Magic can have it, I don't see why Psionics can't (not that we need it...).

I'm also considering using this sort of character as an end boss to a campaign at level 20ish.  What would this person's/being's motivations be?  Why would they greatly want to destroy/save the world?  How would they be a threat to the world @level 20?

If their node is on the planet, that's a very real reason, especially given that it would take centuries to form.  Even if it's not, odds are the lure of power (to right wrongs if good, to rule if not, or to generally act on impulse if neutral) would probably be irresistable at that point - the dude literally can ice a god killer.

And as for being a threat to the world (or anyone else) - you have a honey pot of actions available at the flick of the wrist.  As in infinite if you so desire (just add affinity field).  That alone with teleportation and his damage capability means he could level the planet with impunity.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 12:29:35 AM by KellKheraptis »

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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chintzy Mind Mage stacking (which is Dragon mag anyhow).
If you mean running multiple iterations of gaining the ability (one bumps the other which bumps the other which...), that's not the fault of the PrC. It would be like claiming you get multiple iterations of the toughness feat for infinite HP because toughness takes your HP and "sets" it equal to your HP+3. No. It sets it equal to your old HP +3. Also I disproved the "arcane dilettante" / master spellthief abuse in an earlier thread. The feat itself is very balanced and its one of my favorite feats of all time (when changed with variants).

Quote
Psi-Magic Transparency (which really don't matter, as there won't be a dead magic zone, only AMF and NPF), standard transparency is assumed.  Magic mantle is not in use, so no questionable rules from that, either.
Although powerful, the magic mantle with a nerfed psi-magic transparency is not as strong as full blown psi-magic transparency missing magic mantle. CL->ML abuse is just crazy in psionics.

Quote
A time-trait modified demiplane is only utilized as a time-saver for growing the node.  There is no need for planar trait abuse, and with the myriad ways of gaining immortality available to this guy, it's ultimately not even a necessity, just a convenience (though it would take an incredibly long time to grow a Class 18 Earth Node...).
Anything longer than a year is a red flag. Nodes are red flags as well. Also, I thought the highest number nodes were 9 pre-epic [Und50], certainly not 18. Care to cite otherwise?

Quote
  • Standard of Heroes - 40,000gp
  • 10 Vials of Dying Breath - 22,000gp
  • Band of Spell Enhancement - 10,080gp
Source for these?

Quote
  • Node Genesis
  • Greater Consumptive Field - 11,200gp
9th level power and a double helping of ew. So, 4 red flags.

I have nothing to say about the buff routine, other than that using temporary ML to implant shards is a bad idea because they won't be available unless you are buffed enough to activate them. Otherwise they become inaccessible, just like anything else with a prerequisite. And then I noticed that you are abusing default transparency. Yeah that's the single reason unknowledgeable DMs ban psionics. It's like bringing IHS, whiteraven tactics, d2crusader + crusader infinite heals, and shadowhand maneuvers to teleport out of an AMF to the table of a DM who's never used tome of battle before. He'll ban ToB DM without realizing that those are the only 5 broken things in the book.

Psionics is so balanced it really just has 1 flaw and the book dances around the fact that you probably should think long and hard about transparency. Why? Because the authors knew it was broken, but were too wimpy to fix it. You'll note that there is no hand-wringing over transparency with shadowmagic or incarnum.

Let me summarize your attack strategies (all of which were known in their prospective threads):
TBoS: get higher CL + widened AMF + ubercharge
Heca: overcome regneration + High hit + damage
100's: various powers w/ high ML. Do yourself a favor and show PP usage so you can take out the TO "with easy recharge" reference.

Basically, this build is the poster child for why every DM ever should nerf magic-psionics transparency. Without 9ths, nodes, and ML abuse, its a rather tame build. Here's what my upcoming dump has to say about transparency:
(click to show/hide)
aka since CL/ML don't say they interact, they don't.

Offline KellKheraptis

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I'll have to track down the sources for the items - I believe the standard was Heroes of Battle, off the top of my head.

As for the Node, good potential catch - that would require a major retooling, unfortunately, and I was trying to avoid using a Nasty Gentleman/Thrallherd trick as it's been done before.

As for the ML/CL and Node time flags, those parts to this extreme are purely for the purpose of the challenges - I don't see any sane DM allowing a level 18 Node any time soon, but provided it checks out on the Node 9 Pre-Epic above, remains RAW legal if as usual for Node tech the cheesiest part of the build (but come on, what part of these ISN'T - the 10^100 is in YBIYBI for a reason).

Offline Endarire

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From my understanding of Node Magic, nodes of 10+ exist if you're using Epic Handbook content.  You don't have to use epic content from that book.

Offline KellKheraptis

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Vial of the Last Gasp (CV) - wrong name, same effect
Band of Spell Enhancement (Ravenloft) - This can also be replaced with Suffer the Flesh easily enough

Trying to find the Standard of Heroes again - it's for morale bonuses.

Offline Azrael

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I think I can do it, but it needs to be 21st level; and I assume by "form altering magic" you mean shapechange and the like. It's really fucking difficult to do this without using shapechange at least during some point in the process.

Also...how does consumptive field apply to ML? Even under transparency rules it shouldn't apply since CL and ML are distinctly different (e.g. They don't stack with each other if you're multi classed so they should be treated as separate stats even under transparency rules).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 01:59:49 AM by Azrael »

Offline KellKheraptis

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I think I can do it, but it needs to be 21st level; and I assume by "form altering magic" you mean shapechange and the like. It's really fucking difficult to do this without using shapechange at least during some point in the process.

Also...how does consumptive field apply to ML? Even under transparency rules it shouldn't apply since CL and ML are distinctly different (e.g. They don't stack with each other if you're multi classed so they should be treated as separate stats even under transparency rules).

The most efficient way to beat all 3 challenges to be totally honest is with a Spelldancer, similar to the Archivist entry to the Gish challenge (that basically turned into an Atlas BattleMech).  I just wanted to see if it can be done with psionics without using Thrallherd.

Any of the circle mages can also annihilate all 3 challenges, and as noted before, several weaknesses in the TBoS were never discussed until these threads here, such as his inability to function (or his buffs) if you make the check on an AMF impossible for him to make to cast out of.  Gotta say, I do like the brute force method of batch-hosing all his buffs though :P

Offline Azrael

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Well I can certainly do it at 20th with thrallherd, as you well know. Otherwise, the only other original way I can think of beating all 3 is at 21st level. Unless of course you can get primary contact twice somehow without fusioning thralls, or if you know of some other way to get epic spell casting prior to 21st level that doesn't involve psionics.   

In any case TBoS was never the issue for me. It's the 10^100 part that gets me.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 09:24:37 PM by Azrael »

Offline KellKheraptis

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Well I can certainly do it at 20th with thrallherd, as you well know. Otherwise, the only other original way I can think of beating all 3 is at 21st level. Unless of course you can get primary contact twice somehow without fusioning thralls, or if you know of some other way to get epic spell casting prior to 21st level that doesn't involve psionics.   

In any case TBoS was never the issue for me. It's the 10^100 part that gets me.

Look into Circle Magic + GCF with a few buffs :D  One quick MDJ later and the TBoS is toast, but that same CL is beastly with stuff like Algid Enhancement.  Hell, I have a sorc build somewhere that blows the 10^100 away - that one is more a buff test than anything for a caster.

Offline Azrael

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I said "original build".       

How the hell do you get your ability scores over 100 with a regular sorc build?

Offline KellKheraptis

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If shape shifting is allowed during that part, it's Str as a Colossal Legendary Ape + Enhancement.  If not, by using the CL trick and UMD/Wyrm Wizard/however you wanna snag it Owl's Insight.

EDIT: An ability score isn't part of the 10^100 FYI, so those would only be used for buffing Jump checks and Will saves, which a skill check and a save ARE part of the 10^100 :D
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 10:15:31 PM by KellKheraptis »

Offline Azrael

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Oh, I haven't looked at the thing in forever so I forgot.         

Edit: yeah, going back and looking at it it's far simpler than I remembered. I thought it required you to be able to pass these checks an unlimited number of times per day, or required you to have +100 to all skill checks, saves, etc.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 01:01:30 AM by Azrael »

Offline KellKheraptis

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Oh, I haven't looked at the thing in forever so I forgot.         

Edit: yeah, going back and looking at it it's far simpler than I remembered. I thought it required you to be able to pass these checks an unlimited number of times per day, or required you to have +100 to all skill checks, saves, etc.

Like I said, beating any of the three really isn't too difficult.  It's beating all three with the restrictions of all three that became challenging, with the self-imposed restriction of doing it with a full-manifester type and no Thrallherd.

That being said, I am tempted to post up a "Raistlin-style" build that does it as a Wizard, though it's kinda annoying as there's already one Incantatrix (Mr. Roboto).  It'll be doing it a far different way, though, so shouldn't be a big deal in that department.

EDIT: AMF is a fixed range spell...what has stopped us from slapping Reach Spell on it and dropping one with a high CL on the TBoS, by the way?  AMF his ass then nuke with Spell Matrix/Arcane Fusion Macross Missle Massacre of Lesser Orbs?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 07:34:20 PM by KellKheraptis »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Oh, I haven't looked at the thing in forever so I forgot.
Edit: yeah, going back and looking at it it's far simpler than I remembered.
The "10^100" challenge is more of a joke than anything. Immunity or the ability to totally avoid the need to even use a statistic isn't even taken into account in the system even through it's superior in every way. Like

Do you have 100 attack? Nope, I target Flat-Footed Touch while unseen which averages like AC 8.
Do you have 100 damage? Nope, because that's a digit short of basic spellcasting, charging, martial adepts, etc.
Do you have 100 AC? Nope, I ignore damage, reflect all ranged attacks, and keep Total-Concealment up when possible negating targeting which is infinity far superior than Armor Class.
Do you have 100 Move Speed? 30ft Move Speed + (Rapid Wrath + Horned Helm applied to land & fly) + Feathered Wings = Fly 540ft. *snore*
Do you have 100 to a Skill Check? Expeditious Retreat +Rapid/Horned/30base gives you +60 Jump without even trying.
Do you have 100 Fort? Nope, immune to Fort Saves in all that matters which is vastly superior.
Do you have 100 Reflex? Nope, I ignore damage & have Heart of Water to Freedom of Movement which is vastly superior.
Do you have 100 Will? Yep thanks to a Diamond Mind Maneuver, but also Mind Blank & Protection from [All].
Do you have 100 Spell Levels? 34 in a casting attribute adds 91 Spell Levels if you have access to 9th level Spells.
Do you have 100 HP? Necropolition does this without any effort. 20d12=135.5.
Do you have 100 resistance to damage? Immunity to damage via a Wand of Favored of the Martyr & Regeneration.

~Every single high level Necropolition Wizard.

And then you hit the rules/FAQ of it, like you only need 17 rounds in a day to pull any given value, you can use Cohorts, custom magic items, infinite buff/campaign time, any infinite loop, and heck it tries to ban 3.0 Material but thanks to the MMII having an Errata document the one 3.0 that seriously needs banned off the table for it's Shapechange options is perfectly legal. It's not a big deal these days, maybe years ago before we all joined the community and WotC printed so many broken options it might have been.

Offline KellKheraptis

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En passant, the CL method of brute-forcing the TBoS' AMF is rendered moot by casting it as a Su instead of a normal spell.  That being said, AMF-ing his ass in  higher CL AMF works just fine.

Offline Azrael

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EDIT: AMF is a fixed range spell...what has stopped us from slapping Reach Spell on it and dropping one with a high CL on the TBoS, by the way?  AMF his ass then nuke with Spell Matrix/Arcane Fusion Macross Missle Massacre of Lesser Orbs?

Don't we need Abj Master Specialist for casting AMFs on others?

The "10^100" challenge is more of a joke than anything. Immunity or the ability to totally avoid the need to even use a statistic isn't even taken into account in the system even through it's superior in every way.

Obviously that's the case, immunities are always better and it's how I always operated from day 1. The point is that it's still an exercise in technical skill though. Optimizing within constraints still requires you to think outside the box. Honestly, these days, it's the only joy I can derive from the system anymore; since having completely mastered it.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 12:23:50 AM by Azrael »

Offline SorO_Lost

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You could start up our own version of the Iron Chef Challenge, but I think you'd have to specific an OP threshold. Like challenge 1 make a crit-based killer who doesn't cast Spells, can murder CR 30s, but should die if he faces a CR 40 Deity and no ubercharging. Otherwise the same very reliable tricks will just keep getting posted.

The chief problem with optimization is as the more clear your understanding of which options are the most powerful the more you'll trend towards them creating a stagnation.

Offline KellKheraptis

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You could start up our own version of the Iron Chef Challenge, but I think you'd have to specific an OP threshold. Like challenge 1 make a crit-based killer who doesn't cast Spells, can murder CR 30s, but should die if he faces a CR 40 Deity and no ubercharging. Otherwise the same very reliable tricks will just keep getting posted.

The chief problem with optimization is as the more clear your understanding of which options are the most powerful the more you'll trend towards them creating a stagnation.

I can't force the bile down long enough to post an Iron Chef challenge on GitP.