Author Topic: The Avengers, or why parties with high power discrepancy might be doable  (Read 2385 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Required reading:
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It's considered common knowledge that having wide power variations among characters spells trouble for players. It doesn't just cause metagame issues, though. DMs often complain about not being able to challenge higher tier characters without steamrolling lower tier ones.

I've always been wary of both sides of the coin, however. Sufficiently mature players simply adequately role play being overshadowed and do not try to cause problems because of it. They have to have enough system mastery to understand that they are choosing to not be superman, of course. I often request higher constraints on any characters I build when I play.

DMs who complain about "fighter+monk+wizard+cleric" being incredibly lopsided often need to be taught to expect that sort of thing when they come to us looking for help. But the more I think about it, the more these sorts of DMs often need to be taught system mastery itself. I'm not sure I've seen a highly skilled DM that admits they still can't handle these sorts of things.

It makes me think that the above "problems" are simply system mastery problems, rather than that wide-ranges in power make a DMs job unplayable. For instance DMs found to complain about the above often are trying to do no-no's like pit single adversaries against whole parties. It seems to me that with enough DMing skill, and players who can rise to the challenge, that mook-clearing can fun times for the lowest tiers along with the highest ones.

A more concrete example was in Age of Ultron, where the party tried to secure a core against an onslaught of robots trying to touch it. If they failed, the core would wreck havoc. High-powered characters fought alongside low-tiered ones without much of a "wait a minute" moment, even when I was actively looking for one. Sure, the more powerful characters cleared more mooks, but at a certain point the numbers differences don't matter (either to the players or for the sake of the story).

Indeed movies like the Avengers are totally fine splitting up role-playing time and action time whilst giving higher time in the spotlight to the less powerful characters. It seems like players would enjoy that too: "How much do you want to role play? Lots or little? Build to suit." Personally, I love to role play as a DM, but dislike it as a character. I'd love to be given the choice.

tl;dr look at how the line-up just plain works:
(click to show/hide)
It gets even more wildly variant at the end, and I have no doubt that it'll still be fine.


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Offline Samwise

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Re: The Avengers, or why parties with high power discrepancy might be doable
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2015, 01:45:55 AM »
Well, my current game faces this regularly.
One player loves spellcasters, though he favors blasters or illusionists, which moderates the impact. He loves to role-play, and knows the setting well.
One player loves fighters, with forays into paladins and such. He prefers just cutting things down.
And one player generally winds up in the mid-ground, often asking me for ideas on new options. He usually goes with rangers, but he's tried a factotum (after seeing another player be useless with one), a battlefield control wizard (with advice from me), and now a diplomancer/fear projector (designed by me as something "different" at his request). He likes to engage the setting but just doesn't know it very well and isn't sure about a lot of what he'd like to try.

I've worried a lot about balancing things for them.
The biggest help is that they don't set out competing for kills and such, so I don't have to worry about them taunting each other.
In general I've gone with various things, from rules tweaks to make the fighter more relevant, to fiddling with encounters to provide specific challenges for each at different times.

With other groups, I've done other things, including "cheating" to spread chances for kill shots out more evenly among the players. A lot of that will depend on the particular group though.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Avengers, or why parties with high power discrepancy might be doable
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2015, 03:40:30 PM »
hey I wondered about this myself
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11480.msg200644#msg200644


Clearly there's a demand for it.

Perhaps an expansion of Alignment Auras
to include general power levels and more
specifically ECL balanced information.

So like Black Widow looks at something
and doesn't roll a 1 or a 20, so she has
some roundabout idea the Hulk has to
fight the giant space monster, and Thor
has to find Loki, and Cap is rather too
old-fashoined for her tastes, and Iron Man
can prove the Fly is not overpowered.
etc
The average Commoner looks at this, and
screams running away total Fear effect.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 03:42:15 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The Avengers, or why parties with high power discrepancy might be doable
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2015, 01:02:08 PM »
I just dug this up from some old notes of mine: "Without stacking nightsticks and mystra-worshipping (perhaps she's dead), clerics are still powerful, but strangely accepted in parties. Maybe its purely psychological. A fighter doesn't mind dying in a battle while the cleric does well. After all the cleric can simply raise the fighter for another day.

In my experience clerics that are not trying to simply outshine the party end up helping everyone, even with persistant buffs or undead minions. That is not to say that a jerk trying to take over as tank or dps can't do it, but left to their own devices its in a clerics nature to hang back and enjoy the show, swooping to save the day when needed.

My first campaign was with a cleric in an all non-caster party. A 3 or 4 tier difference wasn't actually that bad simply because I was a team player. Trying to do all the arcane casting responsibilities kept me busy enough. The DM was very on-the-ball about divinations, so I couldn't be the theoretical 'I have spell for that!' prepared caster.

I realized it was more efficient (assuming I had to stay with the party) to spread my resources out just in case of scenario x. Even when I simply auto-winned encounters, the party expected me to do it and would be angry if I refused to help. The key was letting them try first. If they succeeded, they felt great. If they didn't and I saved them, they felt great.

An example was the fact that no one could deal with invisibility. But since I was the only caster, that was my job. So I kept invisibility purge prepared all campaign. Sure enough, when a pixie decided to gauge our eyes out, the party looked to me rather than wiff swords through the air. Bottom line, as long as you take care of the party and don't play like a selfish jerk, you can have your cake and eat it too with surprisingly few balance concerns."