Author Topic: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2  (Read 14637 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2016, 06:20:30 PM »
So fun fact, if you delete the word "epic" from creating Epic Spells you'd have 99.9% of the system Bronzebeard wants to make.

Also as a fun fact, Mutants and Mastermind does things even better, and Risius is even less rule extensive!

If the PCs have gate/wish/genesis/planar binding and whatnot, the campaign story will always start and end with "and our infinite army of solars/titans/prismatic dragons took care of every problem while we were sitting in our super safe plane where nothing can hurt us and we have negative reasons to leave".
What about the campaign where the Gold Dragon Gates in a group of Adventurers to square off against Tiamat for him? Maybe that Teifling Cleric that party summoned to save some kids last week decided to use his Summoner Domain accessed Binding to pull the party's Cleric to burn an orphanage to the ground.

Some of the most potentially powerful Spells in D&D have the worst potential to ruin your character's life if any other creature in the entire game decided to use them too. And it's even worse for you if the DM decides to side with them.

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2016, 09:05:34 PM »
It might be outside of the scope of this, but I can list a few potential problems.
Wait! Hold up! I was interested in the ways you think that can be used against those problems.
I mean, I highly value your input, but we've already stated the problems that need to be addressed, in the previous chapter. Now we're trying to answer them.
Also, you're missing a few items such as the prominence of SoD spells. Magical Resistance and the obscurity of spellcaster check. Mages scrolls ad infinitum. 15 minute work day. etc.


One big combat aspect I see missing is crowd control. That's a very broad term that can be done in many ways, but it's very important. Also, mobility (flight and teleportation, specifically) would need to be addressed.
Well, crowd control is a term that is used outside of design to state a certain affect your character creates on the battlefield. I can see both charm and figment as creating Crowd Control effects.
Someone had argued that Summon can also be used for Crowd Control. Could be. personally, I don't buy that. What you mention as flight and teleport I called Shift. There are a number of short term, minor influence spells that already exist and can be connected to it. Jaunt, Fast retreat, Dimension Door, Knights Move. Whatever. For the more complex version where either the caster or the group travel to an entirely different location I thought that using the Ritual rules will be more fitting (and so, there is no need for blocks spellcasting).


As far as non-combat goes, you're probably going to want some utility in there. You can likely get some good utility from summon, figment, charm, shift, and know/detect. You may or may not want something to help bypass hazards, things to boost mundane tasks (be they boosts to normal skill checks, or things that work outside of the skill system), as well as stuff like reading thoughts or detecting lies. It's possible those effects could get added into boost and know/detect.
Pretty much most of what you mentioned is up there. Boost block can provide +2 to aim or something similar, an automatic skill success would probably fit more as a Ritual. Same with most other blocks provided. Do you think that there is something not covered by the blocks? Can you think of a specific example?


You weren't planning on each of those things as being a single effect, were you? I'm assuming each would contain a list of effects.
I wasn't planning on anything at all after that post. It's a catalyst for discussion. I thought of somethings and would like to hear others. Given what I wrote (or could also be - despite what I wrote) how do you see the system onward?



So fun fact, if you delete the word "epic" from creating Epic Spells you'd have 99.9% of the system Bronzebeard wants to make.
You know, It would have seemed wise of me to remember that  :rolleyes


Also as a fun fact, Mutants and Mastermind does things even better, and Risius is even less rule extensive!
And ars magicka, and blue rose.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 09:08:35 PM by Bronzebeard »

Offline Amechra

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2016, 01:38:35 AM »
Also as a fun fact, Mutants and Mastermind does things even better, and Risius is even less rule extensive!
And ars magicka, and blue rose.

And Mage (both of 'em), Champions, FATE, PowerFrame, FFG Star Wars (kinda)...

But none of those matter, because this be D&D, son.



On a more on-topic note: how are you thinking of combining blocks? Like, do I smash summon/ice/fright together to summon a scary ice monster or a terrifying blizzard, or would there be more structure and nuance in place?
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2016, 08:33:04 AM »
Wait! Hold up! I was interested in the ways you think that can be used against those problems.
I mean, I highly value your input, but we've already stated the problems that need to be addressed, in the previous chapter. Now we're trying to answer them.
Gotcha. It seemed off topic, and now I know why.

As for answers to what I listed:
(click to show/hide)


Well, crowd control is a term that is used outside of design to state a certain affect your character creates on the battlefield. I can see both charm and figment as creating Crowd Control effects.
...
What you mention as flight and teleport I called Shift.
Yeah, it is a broad term. Were you planning on anything similar to Entangle, Web, Grease, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, or Solid Fog?

I misinterpreted Shifting as "shapeshifting".


Pretty much most of what you mentioned is up there. Boost block can provide +2 to aim or something similar, an automatic skill success would probably fit more as a Ritual. Same with most other blocks provided. Do you think that there is something not covered by the blocks? Can you think of a specific example?
Were you planning on stuff like:
  • Soften Earth and Stone/Stone Shape
  • Polymorph
  • Zone of Truth
  • Alarm
  • Light
Some of these are pretty broad effects and some are pretty narrow. I like having options for all of them. You could easily throw Soften Earth and Stone/Stone Shape into "earth powers" or "transmutation", depending on how you divide it up.


Given what I wrote (or could also be - despite what I wrote) how do you see the system onward?
Well, it's pretty high level and vague (intentionally), so it's really hard to say.

It might be a good time to start with some specifics on just a few of the blocks, to see how things work. Obviously, the numbers probably won't work, but it's the easiest way to start seeing how things interact, and to see what would be available to a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc level caster. You may find that 1st level casters are only able to blast one CR 1 foe for 1/2 its HP, but 3rd levels are able to blast 3 CR 3s for half their HP (obviously a way better output than might be expected). You might find that 3rd level casters are really lagging behind, and they need more abilities to stack, or whatever.

Direct damage is probably one of the easiest to start with, because it's working with raw numbers, we already have HP values by CR for monsters listed, and this is similar in may ways to the already-existing system of adding metamagic feats to spells.
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Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2016, 08:52:28 AM »
On a more on-topic note: how are you thinking of combining blocks? Like, do I smash summon/ice/fright together to summon a scary ice monster or a terrifying blizzard, or would there be more structure and nuance in place?
This is for all of us to decide. But if you ask me personally then I would say that summon/ice/fright would create a spell that would summon a monster, inflict cold damage on enemies and force a save roll vs. fear. I think that the summon part encompass the monsters themselves and if a certain foe can fear or not should be reflected in the monster's CR itself.
The blocks all refer to the spell we create. That's what I think at least.


I'm not sure what the issue is with Magic Resistance. Do you mean overcoming it, or how some spells are SR: No?
Also, what is the issue with the obscurity of spellcaster checks? Do you mean that you want spells to fail more, or what?
Both.
Spell resistance brings to the table this type of binary nature that's really not fun to play with.
I don't think that it's that engaging.

The 15 minute workday is mostly a resource management issue. The obvious way to address it (outside of the DM contriving circumstances to discourage it) is to make it so spells come back faster. Imagine a scenario where the caster only gets a handful of spells in a combat, but they all come back in minutes. It's a paradigm shift, but it solves the problem.
That was the exact option that came up last time.


Were you planning on anything similar to Entangle, Web, Grease, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, or Solid Fog?
Were you planning on stuff like:
  • Soften Earth and Stone/Stone Shape
  • Polymorph
  • Zone of Truth
  • Alarm
  • Light
Some of these are pretty broad effects and some are pretty narrow. I like having options for all of them. You could easily throw Soften Earth and Stone/Stone Shape into "earth powers" or "transmutation", depending on how you divide it up.
As stated before – I didn’t write blocks for all of the options already exist. Mainly, because I don't know how. If you have a suggestion or otherwise then I'm all ears.
One thing I'm pretty sure about is that there are spells that can be separated to be in 'Ritual' group. I think that the move made at 4th edition, were they differentiated between in-combat and out-of-combat spells to spells and rituals, was a good one.

I'm also not sure if it's better to create the blocks as thematically grouped or balance grouped: Say wall of stone, stoneshape, and wall of force – is it Wall and molding blocks? Or force and earth blocks.



It might be a good time to start with some specifics on just a few of the blocks, to see how things work … Direct damage is probably one of the easiest to start with, because it's working with raw numbers,
I'll try.

I'm creating an offensive damaging spell called "BB's life leech".
The blocks I'm using are ray+necrotic+echo+echo+echo
The spell I created is now a ranged touch attack, dealing 1d6 damage (ray part), that is of the necrotic/necromancy type (necrotic part, maybe missing a special effect. Like wither type effect. Fire spells cause burning, necrotic spells cause what?), and for the next 3 rounds another bolt is fired at the same target once per round (3 times echo).
The spell is built from 5 blocks (3 types of blocks) so it is 5th level spell. That limitation exists so that you have some sort of power threshold.
Maybe because it's a 5th level spell then it deals 5d6 damage. One for each level?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2016, 11:29:12 AM »
Maybe because it's a 5th level spell then it deals 5d6 damage. One for each level?
5d6 averages 17.5 and 5th level Spells are ECL 9+.

To scale, 18 Str & Greatsword deals 2d6+6 (13/hit) and they get three attacks per round for 39 damage or 220% the damage of a spellcaster and the 'mundane' isn't even at par seeing how by the 9th level the game expects you to have stuff like a +2 level increase & an enhancement bonus to strength plus magical weapons. Damage is about the last thing you need to worry about nerfing. I mean even the Warlock's +1d6 per two levels is considered weak, it's why Hellfire & Glaive are musts, and even that thing lets you attach an area based Shape & debuffing Essence to it for free.

And speaking of, ever consider expanding on Invocations?

Offline Amechra

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2016, 02:25:49 AM »
Here's something that might be worth giving a butcher's.

Skip the first two posts - you want the OD&D Magic Champions Style posts.
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Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2016, 05:02:09 AM »
5d6 averages 17.5 and 5th level Spells are ECL 9+.

To scale, 18 Str & Greatsword deals 2d6+6 (13/hit) and they get three attacks per round for 39 damage or 220% the damage of a spellcaster and the 'mundane' isn't even at par seeing how by the 9th level the game expects you to have stuff like a +2 level increase & an enhancement bonus to strength plus magical weapons. Damage is about the last thing you need to worry about nerfing. I mean even the Warlock's +1d6 per two levels is considered weak, it's why Hellfire & Glaive are musts, and even that thing lets you attach an area based Shape & debuffing Essence to it for free.

Take note that those numbers are temporary and not balanced at all. So, pointing them as faulty is kinda... only logical.
Can you mark up a table with numbers of expected damage output or the damage the warriors do for comparison.
That would greatly help.

And speaking of, ever consider expanding on Invocations?
Could you elaborate please?


Here's something that might be worth giving a butcher's.

Skip the first two posts - you want the OD&D Magic Champions Style posts.
That's an amazing catch. Greatly appreciated. It also shows that I'm (we're) not the only one feeling that way.
Would you mind telling me what OD&D stands for (I know what the abbreviation is. Just that there are many editions and I'm not sure what they're referring to).

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2016, 02:32:48 PM »
    I went over FrDave's dozen blog posts about deconstructing and breaking down the spells and spell groups. I tried to scrutinize the lines to a better view of the results.
    I restate that the following is not something that I created or deem as a fitting solution. Only as a decent start.
    ________________________________________________________________________________


    Each bullet has a price in {} at the end of the line.

Damaging spells
base spell is 1d6 + level, single, touch attack.
  • damage of 1d6/ level {1}
  • area effect (total of 4 one inch squares) {1}
  • turn touch to ranged {1}

Buffing spells
base spell is touch spell for 6 rounds.
  • add any two of the following vs. specific source: {1}
    • +1 Save
    • +1 AC
    • +1 Morale
    • +1 Attack
  • generalize the source from which the spell defends {1}
  • affect area of 10 feet {1}
  • turn touch to ranged {1}
  • double movement speed {1}
  • halve movement speed {1}
[li]immunity to 1 physical attack type {2}[/li][/list]

Healing
base spell is 1 full round cure 1 out of:
    • 1d6+1 hp
    • disease
    • curse {require base level of 2 for arcane spells}
    • poison {require base level of 2}
  • turn touch to ranged  {1 - double for arcane}
  • make the spell take effect immediately {1 - double for arcane}
  • cure additional 1d6+1 hp {3}
  • "cure" death — requires one other modifier {3}

Detection
base spell is range of 1"/level and an instantaneous duration.
  • add 6 turns duration {1}
  • add range of +6"  {1}
  • 3"r. Area Effect {1}

Transform
base spell is Gain one non-combat trait (i.e. infravision). Duration = 6 + caster level turns. Range = touch. only affect living creatures
  • Duration = 1 day {1}
  • Range = 12" {1}
  • Affects 2-12 targets in a 6x6" area {1}
  • Gain all non-combat traits — you look like a dragon and can fly like a dragon, but you don't have a breath weapon and you use the same combat dice you always do. {1}
  • Traits affect combat (requires Gain all non-combat traits) — you look like a dragon and fight like one too {1}
  • Ability to transform non-living inanimate objects into living objects or vice-versa. (requires Gain all non-combat traits) — when a caster turns himself into a non-living object this is not an instant kill; however, when cast upon another target, it is {1}
  • Duration = permanent {2}

Conjuration/Summon
base spell is 2nd level spell. Summons 1 extant creature of a specific type with 1-6 (d6) HD. Duration = concentration. Range = none. Area Effect = none. Caster has control of the summoned creature.
  • Duration = fulfillment of a single task (no concentration necessary). {1}
  • Range = 24" (the creature can appear/be anywhere within 24") {1}
  • Number of Creatures = any number totaling the HD summoned (If 3HD are summoned, the base spell summons one 3HD creature. This allows those 3HD to be divided among a number of smaller HD creatures — three 1HD creatures or six 1/2HD creatures, for example). This is a general area effect (sewer, swamp, lake, etc.). {1}
  • Creature Type = extra planar (creature does not need to already be available) {1}
  • Creature HD = 7-12 (d6+6) HD {1}
  • Duration = permanent {2}
  • Creature HD = 12-18 (d6+12) HD {2}

Dispel
base spell is Cancels out a specific spell or spell-like effect instantly and permanently. Range = touch
  • Affects all magic {1}
  • Range = 12" {1}
  • Area Affect = 3" r. {1}
  • Duration = 6 turns {1}
  • Affects summoned creatures (a missed saving throw = banishment; save = morale check failure) {2}
  • Duration = 12 turns {2}
  • Creates a shield that blocks spells in and out {2}

Communication
base spell is Read or speak a language otherwise unknown to character (fauna only). Duration = 3 rounds/caster level
  • Duration = 6 turns {1}
  • May communicate with creatures that do not have obvious means of communicating (flora, for example) {1}
  • Targets are predisposed to do what the caster asks of them (bonus to the reation roll) {1}
  • Target is from a higher plane of existance (requires communication with non-fauna creatures and a Duration = 6 turns). This comes in two forms, depending on the spell caster. Clerics get 3 questions that will be answered honestly. Magic Users get up to 12 questions, but these must be "yes" "no." In addition the caster runs the risk of not only being lied to, but of going insane. The fewer the questions, the more likely they answers are false. The more questions asked, the higher chance of insanity. Maybe used no more than once/week. {2}

Change Environment
base spell is Make a minor change in the surrounding environment (light, temperature, etc.). Duration = 6 + caster level turns. Area Effect 3" diameter. Range none
  • {1}
  • Duration = permanent {1}
  • Area Effect = 30" sq./a single small geographic feature {1}
  • Range = 12" {1}
  • Effect = affects a specific group mechanically {1}
  • Spell effect may be moved independently of the spell caster {1}
  • Range = 24" {2}
  • Effect = affects a general group mechanically {2}

Sustenance
base spell is Purify poisoned/spoiled food and water enough for 12 men.
  • {1}
  • Quantity adds (caster level x2) men {1}
  • Quantity adds mounts {1}
  • Substitute "create water" for "purify poisoned/spoiled food and water." {1}
  • Substitute "create food" for "purify poisoned/spoiled food and water." {2}

Movement
base spell is (teleportation): Duration = instantaneous. Range = self. Teleport 6" with no chance of misjudging.
  • Teleport 12" with no chance of misjudging {1}
  • Range = 1" {1}
  • Teleport 36" with no chance of misjudging {2}
  • Range = 3" {2}
  • Range = 2" per caster level {3}
  • Teleport anywhere as long as destination is known. Any uncertainty might result in death. {4}
base spell is (axial): 0 level (must purchase at least one addition) Duration = 3 turns. Speed = 6". Range =self. Medium = Air. Axis = Vertical or Horizontal
  • Duration = 1d6 + caster level turns {1}
  • Speed = 12" {1}
  • Range = 2" per caster level {1}
  • Medium = Liquid {1}
  • Axis = Both Horizontal and Vertical {1}
  • Speed = 36" {2}
  • Medium = Solid {2}

Enchant
base spell is Target must make a save or be compelled to carry out one command by the caster. Target is free to carry out this command in a manner that reflects their basic personality and alignment. Duration = until the task is complete. Area Effect = 1 person of 4+1 HD or less. Range = 3". Target = humanoid.
  • Duration = 6 + caster turns (and thus possibly more than one command). {1}
  • Range = 12" {1}
  • Area effect = 1 person/creature of any HD {1}
  • Save at penalty -2 {1}
  • No save for creatures with less than 1/3 of caster level (1/2HD at 2nd level, 1 HD at 4th level, 2 HD at 7th level, etc.) {1}
  • Target = monster {1}
  • Target's basic personality & alignment are subject to change at the will of the caster {1}
  • Duration = until dispelled {2}
  • Range = 24" {2}
  • Area Effect = 2d6 creatures + 1 per level above 8 {2}
  • Save at penalty -4 {2}
  • Some kind of withering disease or curse affects the target when they do not fulfil the command(s) of the caster. {2}



(click to show/hide)

I have a few gripes with what is written above.
Mostly that the decomposing is based off of spells that initially wasn't constructed with any order or reason. Also, the groupings used above doesn't always appear by rules and influences but rather by themes.
Lastly, it doesn't give any room for more inventive cross-group spells (enchant+healing, for example).
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 02:54:47 PM by Bronzebeard »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2016, 03:00:42 PM »
Can you mark up a table with numbers of expected damage output or the damage the warriors do for comparison. That would greatly help.
Probably not. I mean it's easy at low levels or even running a generic +X Weapon with expected Str/BAB, the problem is choices. Like a Lion Totem Frenzy Barbarian with Extra Rage using a Greatsword has totally different values than a Frenzy Berserker Barbarian TWF Holy Hand Axes.

Class vs Class decisions are easier than finding expected values within builds. Alternatively you can pull Optimization By Number's information and create an expectation based off that. But if you balance according to it you'll honestly come up with something weaker than WotC's creations.

Balanced homebrew can only be made by people that understand the system in a way that is too complicated to be put into words easily. That being said we are a community, don't feel like you need expertise to say something. Just be willing to listen when someone offers advice.

And speaking of, ever consider expanding on Invocations?
Could you elaborate please?
Invocations are At-Will Spell-Like Abilities that are treated as being Arcane in nature, allowing you to enter certain Prestigious Classes and they are subject to Arcane Spell Failure. Two Classes primarily make usage of them, the Warlock from Complete Arcane and the Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic. And there is a decent list of Homebrew already expanding on the system.

Invocations step away from Vancian Magic because instead of arbitrarily limiting you to powerful effects only usable a few times per day to a lower less powerful option that can constantly be used. They break down into four levels and upgrade every six. - IE least at start, lesser at 6th+, greater around 12th (technically 11th but meh), and dark at 16th+. - But the effects tend to be lower in power than Spells of the same ECL. Invocationists also suffer from a limited selection of powers, not only is the selectable list of printed Invocations pretty limited but you only learn about two invocations of a given level or eight in total over twenty levels. The balance consideration is you can reuse them every single round so they should be weaker and more limited than Spells & Spellcasting, sort of like they thoughts behind Tome of Battle except honestly the Maneuver system is more powerful than the Invocation system.

Anyway, you could simply come up with a new Warlock revamp and crunch your "Spells" into Invocations. It has the benefit of already handling scaling for you and sounds like it already went in the direction you wanted to go before you got the idea of Epic Spell Development.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2016, 04:22:33 PM »
The OD&D in question is Holmes and Cook, I think - the spell-list he's working with is very different from the one you're familiar with. It's on a different "fork" of D&D history (I swear, if you number the editions properly, we're onto something like 10th edition.)

And I daresay that just taking from it directly is a bad idea - they are pretty different, system-wise. I mostly linked it so that you could see how someone approached a similar problem.

Enchant/Healing? Just mash the two Basic effects together with the lower of the two stat lines (range, duration, and such). Apply upgrades from either group going forward. You just need a rule of thumb and a nice "talk to the rest of the group before tossing the spell together" line in there somewhere.



I also agree with SorO's comment on damage - though my estimate is about 5*Level to 10*Level per round for someone whose job is duffing people up. They're numbers I pulled out my ass, granted, but they feel correct.

The only problem I can see with Invocations is that they don't feel very Vancian - an incredibly nebulous thing, I admit. Actually, Binding is probably closer to the magic in Vance's stories rather than what we call Vancian magic. Granted, I've seen that pulled off with only letting people prepare one of each given spell every day, but...



As a side note, I've been musing on a Wizard fix that removes spell slots entirely. Instead, they get a bunch of class features based around scroll use. Think of it as a 20-level version of the Unbound Scroll.

Nothing related to what you're trying, I just thought it would be interesting to share.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2016, 09:31:48 AM »
I wanted to add the list of seeds from epic spells design. I thought that SorO_Lost's remark was spot on, and I think it's wise to study every information available before trying to create something (especially if it dismiss the need to create out of nothing).

Unfortunately, it seems to be so much work and I just finished processing FrDave's work. I feel kinda exhausted. Maybe I'll get to it at a later date. Maybe.

@Amechra
If you have anything to show, I'd be willing to take a read.

@SorO_Lost
Without some kind of reference to a projected damage output per level - I can't really tune the damage output of spells to be balanced. Big part of this whole do-over was to address the potential of wizards vs. that of martials. It's less of a question of 1 dice or 2 dice and more of a question for the nature of the mathematical function. There's a difference in how the math behave when the underlying numbers are calculated in each of the following:
 - 1d6 + level
 - 1d6 per level
Or other types of functions.

I think I already mentioned it before; the warlock (and Dragonfire Adept, and others) suffers from extreme of the other side of the scale. They gain balanced, or less of a discrepancy between levels of power by having an extreme lack of choices and a very limited decision making or room for improvisation.
I'd much rather tackle head on the balancing of spells and have them available for every character.
Now, it has already been pointed out that in the short term (and quite possibly, the long term as well), having the DM use ad-hoc solutions and decisions to solve the horrible layout of the rules and give answers for problems as pointed by players, would be better.
Maybe.
Could be.
Probably true.


I still think this is something that is worth the effort. I really truly believe that bunch of forums goers with a clear mind and experience in RPG could come up with better framework.
Hell, I'm finding more and more posts and blogs and writings with solutions that have some common ground. Most of them phrase the same problems/mistakes with the system.
I think that it's safe to say that there is demand. And we can provide supply.
Possibly.

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2016, 06:39:46 PM »
I had the revelation of maybe going at it the opposite way. Instead of trying to 'fix' based on current systems - build something primary and then fix course.
For that I need to decide what are the basic forms of each spell form. If anyone knows the answer It would greatly help me:

I'm trying to establish the most basic forms of spells for each path. A crude grouping comes up with:
  • healing (probably cure minor wounds
  • harming (inflict minor wounds
  • some sort of fear effect spell
  • charming or compulsion spell
  • dazing
  • armor or physical protection
  • summon (I guess number one on that list, no?)
  • banish type (arcane anchor, IIRC)
  • hiding spell
  • detecting spel
  • dispelling or countering (is there a mechanic difference?)
  • energy spell
  • force based spell
  • slaying spell
  • teleportation spell
  • movement spell
  • transformation or shape-shifting spell

And any other spelltype that is absent from the list.

I am working on it still. It's just that any outside contribution is greatly welcomed.

 :)

Offline faeryn

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2016, 10:45:16 PM »
Armor/Protection would probably be either Shield or Magic Vestment... probably Magic Vestment...

Hiding would likely be Silent Image...


Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2016, 05:30:58 PM »
errrrrrr...
alright.
Here's a rought initial draft:


KeyEffectSlot CostRepetitionPHexample
1st-2 penalty for str based rolls and a condition1additional -2Ray of Enfeeblement
slow-2 penalty for dex based rolls and a condition1additional -2Ray of Clumsiness
exhaust-2 penalty for con based rolls and a condition1additional -2
delude-2 penalty for int based rolls and a condition1additional -2
afflict-2 penalty for wis based rolls and a condition1additional -2Touch of Idiocy
Compel-2 penalty for cha based rolls and a condition1additional -2
bolster+2 bonus for str1additional +2
haste+2 bonus for dex1additional +2
9th+2 bonus for con1additional +2
reveal+2 bonus for int1additional +2
11th+2 bonus for wis1additional +2
12th+2 bonus for cha1additional +2
rust-2 for AC1additional -2
ironskin+2 for AC1additional +2
harmdeal 8 hp damage1additional 4 hpinflict light wounds
healrestore 8 hp1additional 4 hpcure light wounds
summonsummon 1HD creature1the creature's hd increase by 1Summon Monster I
banishremove 1HD of creature from battlefield1may remove a creature bigger by 1 additional HD
transportcaster teleport up to 10 feet2teleport range extend by 10 feetdimension leap
energydeal 5 points of elemental damage and a condition1additional 3frost touch
wardabsorb 5 points of element damage1additional 5resist energy

Offline faeryn

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2016, 12:41:59 AM »
Thats a good start... quite a few more keys still need adding though... just to name a few you need a basis for illusions, charms, grapples, alterations, and detection

Offline Amechra

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2016, 03:00:55 AM »
Thats a good start... quite a few more keys still need adding though... just to name a few you need a basis for illusions, charms, grapples, alterations, and detection

The question is... do we need those? After all, one of the big problems with vancian magic in the first place is that no-one ever really defined what it couldn't do.

I mean, most other magic systems have pretty clear boundaries where they aren't able to throw their weight around - Psionics doesn't do illusions or necromancy, Invocations are all either personal or temporary, Meldshaping has some pretty wide gaps in its competency...
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline faeryn

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2016, 09:49:59 AM »
Thats a good start... quite a few more keys still need adding though... just to name a few you need a basis for illusions, charms, grapples, alterations, and detection

The question is... do we need those? After all, one of the big problems with vancian magic in the first place is that no-one ever really defined what it couldn't do.

I mean, most other magic systems have pretty clear boundaries where they aren't able to throw their weight around - Psionics doesn't do illusions or necromancy, Invocations are all either personal or temporary, Meldshaping has some pretty wide gaps in its competency...

I would say yes... and you're mistaken about Psionics not doing Illusions... Invocations are temporary or personal to reflect the fact that they can be used endlessly, an Invocation takes no power to call upon and as such has a limited effect either in range or duration (sometimes both)... Meldshaping is similarly restricted, but they tried to take it in a different direction (somewhat poorly executed though, in my opinion)...

But anyways... Vancian magic is supposed to have the greatest range of potential out of all casting types...

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2016, 03:39:35 PM »
@Amechra:
The state of the Vancian Spellcasting is a result of growing 'organically' so to speak. Over time the spells and spell lists and casting classes got out of hand. The problems are threefold and already been mentioned by others:
For starters - the schools, the differentiation between divine and arcane, and even the classes themselves (see Wizard vs. Sorcerer) have no impact, whatsoever, for the game itself. The names change but nothing else.
Moreover, more likely then not, new casting classes will draw power from the giant-massive-all-encompassing Wiz/Sor spell list. Even ones like the Warmage class are getting a specific list of spells (that are from the same mentioned giant list) and can be expanded by choosing some spells from, once again, the same exact list.
The only exception to this are Classes that arrived later and brought their own, new and shiny spells. The binders and vestige, Incarnium, Truename. Each of them had a different flavor, but they all seem to be doing the same thing (apart for Tome of Blades IMHO).
Which brings me to the last point: You can wave your hand differently, shout words or not, wave a magical wizardly wand, or paints runes on your body. Bottom line is that they all carry the same punch, all having the same panache. I don't fault the classes - I blame the framework with which they exist within. You see, doing 1d6 damage is the same as doing the same 1d6 damage, even if they are from different spells. Grappling an opponent (and thus nulling his Dex) is the same as penalizing his Dex to 1 or 0. At least by my experience.
The conclusion I reached at the last chapter of the "Vancian Discussion" is that There's a need for a unified and easy to grasp rules for spells. They all need to be based on the same meter, same components and same power gauge with comparable stairs like vancian levels. The limiting factors will be built into the classes themselves, where not one character can gain all spells and only excel at certain field.


@faeryn:
Well, yeah. There are a lot of Keys missing still:
In addition to what you already stated there's also Counter/Dispel, Contact, Transform, Slay, Reflections And I'm pretty sure there are more.

Regarding illusion - the school itself divides into 5 (or 6) items. There's figment and glamer and shadow, phantasm and pattern and everything in between. So does that mean 6 more Keys? I think that before that I need to establish what each of this things does exactly and then I would know.

When I went over this groups I intended on grouping the abilities with certain capabilities. e.g. the 12th Key, debuffing charisma, encompass the line of spells that Charm a person. So, whoever gets charmed is actually have his Charisma attacked and vice versa. (I built it after trying to revitalize the whole ability damage rules).
On the flip side - enhancing your int grants you insight and knowledge. Therefore, reveal Key (bonus to Int) is the basis for Detect spells.
Still not sure that it is wise to combine them.
See what I'm getting at?

Offline faeryn

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Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic - Chapter 2
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2016, 08:31:40 PM »
I do see what your getting at, but it would actually be better to keep the keys seprated... trying to combine all possible effects into a single slightly related key only over complicates the system... There's actually a very good reason why the actual casting systems don't use a key builder format like this... The smaller you make the key list the more complicated it becomes, keeping effects balanced and in check becomes a clerical nightmare not just for the players but for the DM as well. You have to define a key for each specific type of effect to reduce this... which unfortunately results in a bloated list of effects that leads to it's own set of problems...

To be honest, the idea is nice, but the practical aplication will be a mess no matter what you do...