When are level adjustments worth it?

[Masakan]

Topic

[Keldar]

1: When the LA buyoff optional rule is in play, its almost always worth the slower start for a 1 or 2 LA.  Excepting you need something only a 0LA race offers, like a bonus feat.
2: When the creature's abilities enable the build in the first place.  You need to be an outsider to take some PrCs and Feats, or a Dragon to take others.  And those require eating LA.
3: Because you want to play a Mindflayer and you don't care how hard you'll suck.   

Its not worth it otherwise.  You want to be a human with an angelic great grandfather?  You are, no crunch necessary.  You want to represent that with crunch?  Play a Favored Soul and take Ancestral Relic to wield grandpappy's flaming sword.   

Really, all the same reasons you'd choose a 0LA race, only with the crunch being far less inherently valuable thanks to those null hit die.

[Masakan]

1: When the LA buyoff optional rule is in play, its almost always worth the slower start for a 1 or 2 LA.  Excepting you need something only a 0LA race offers, like a bonus feat.
2: When the creature's abilities enable the build in the first place.  You need to be an outsider to take some PrCs and Feats, or a Dragon to take others.  And those require eating LA.
3: Because you want to play a Mindflayer and you don't care how hard you'll suck.   

Its not worth it otherwise.  You want to be a human with an angelic great grandfather?  You are, no crunch necessary.  You want to represent that with crunch?  Play a Favored Soul and take Ancestral Relic to wield grandpappy's flaming sword.   

Really, all the same reasons you'd choose a 0LA race, only with the crunch being far less inherently valuable thanks to those null hit die.

This is probably why so many people like the lesser planetouched template, because you get to play a fascinating character without the LA pain in the ass

[SorO_Lost]

Well there is no such thing as a Lesser Planetouched Template, it's a Lesser entry that specifies a few races that is commonly houseruled to be applicable to other Planetouched Races (particularly the ones from Dragon Mag).

LA for the most part is only worth it in a few cases but every time you bring one of them up someone will mention that it's overpowered which is pretty much the point in a nut shell. Like Dragonspawn trades all the benefits of a Hit Die like Skills, HP, progression towards a new Feat, etc. for a minor stat boost and some natural attacks which is pretty lame but Dragonspawn advances your Spellcasting, which simultaneously makes it useful for considerations and it creates the common verdict that it's broken as all get out.

It's a cach 22, either LA sucks or it's broken. And if it's none-existent, we call that a "level".

[faeryn]

it's worth it only when the race/template provides worth-while benefits and the LA is appropriate to those benefits... having an LA+3 on a race/template that only provides you with one or two 1/day abilities and a slightly larger attribute bonus certainly is not worth it... however a LA+1 for that small of a bonus would be worth it.

If the Race/Template provides you with game changing benefits such as being Undead or a Construct... then a higher LA could be worth it.

If the Race/Template provides you with RHD as well... it might be worth it and it might not... it depends on if your starting with the race/template or acquiring it, and if acquiring it how your DM handles the addition of RHD and LA mid-game... and if the LA is reasonable... a race/template with LA+4 (or more) is rarely ever worth it.

[kitep]

I  usually avoid them when I'm making a caster build, and don't mind them when I'm making a melee build.

Of course, if you're making a higher level character and can just declare them "bought off", then they're fine too.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Level 1 is bad.
Level 1 with the PGtF -1 penalty is OK-ish, so long as the rest of the party knows you suck for 1 level, and kinda suck for level 2.  It isn't rocket science, but as "fixes" go it isn't very good at all.

The DM could do this ---> http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6306
LA+1s are just tastier at early levels, when survivability is tougher anyway.

LA Buy-off math is hard, because math is hard.


But yeah I think you can scale any LA's versus the two
Caelic Commandments and if that looks good, then go for it.
Half Fey and Phrenic are the obvious for instances, with
half fey even better because of acquirable progression.

If you've just reached level 4, and you take an acquirable
LA+1, and immediately do LA buy-off, you're just still level 3.
Easiest.

[zook1shoe]

When the benefits outweigh the disadvantages

[eggynack]

Well there is no such thing as a Lesser Planetouched Template, it's a Lesser entry that specifies a few races that is commonly houseruled to be applicable to other Planetouched Races (particularly the ones from Dragon Mag).

I agree that it's not a template. Definitely a variant as written. However, I'm not sure where the idea that it only applies to a few specific and stated planetouched races comes from.

[SorO_Lost]

I agree that it's not a template. Definitely a variant as written. However, I'm not sure where the idea that it only applies to a few specific and stated planetouched races comes from.

From memory.

Got to recheck the entry this morning and Lesser Drow, a specific entry directly before it, use the negative level rules and the Lesser Deep Gnomes, a specific entry directly after it, uses it's own specific entry. But Planetouched is really planetouched not Tielfing/Aasimar.

[Jackinthegreen]

They are worth it when the abilities and other things gained are deemed worthwhile for their cost.  For example, the regular hobgoblin is +1 LA for +2 Dex, +2 Con, darkvision, and +4 racial move silently.  It's almost universally not considered worth it since the gains do not justify the cost.  At +0 they'd be alright.  You'd have to really want those stats and the flavor to have it feel like a useful pick over something else at +1 LA.

Contrast that with the Goliath which gets +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, Powerful build, and other bonuses and it's clear the goliath is much more deserving of the +1 LA.

It just depends on what the gains versus the losses are and how you feel about them.

[Libertad]

Topic

Drow erotic role-play.

Just kidding (or am I?).

One of the few monsters which has a worthy LA in my view is the Sharn from Monsters of Faerun.  For those not in the know, it is an amorphous race of magically-inclined creatures who were once a world power in the Realms responsible for taking down a race of evil worm-sorcerers who once ruled the entire Underdark.  But you don't care about that: they have 4 hit dice and +5 LA, and with that comes a shitload of goodies.

Sharn can cast two spells a round, can fly with perfect maneuverability, regeneration, Damage Reduction worth a shit (10/cold iron and lawful), the ability to create extradimensional portals to bend space and increase effective range, and Multi-Weapon Fighting for free!

Aside from the shitty hit points, what's not to love?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Bloodlines are worth it, now that they're properly defined, and though (too) complicated, they're effectively free.

Hobgoblins got an LA+0 in Oriental Adventures  only.

I'll pimp PLZ's ecl/cr fix thingie , well wait PLZ has pimped it himself multiple times.  Ice Cube says PLZ's a pimp , yo !


Savage Species racial progs are a stupidly mixed bag, but some
are at least functional up to level 5 or so.  Any  used as written,
paired in otherwise normal Gestalt, are rather uniformly usable.   
"Worth it"  depends on how explicitly Tier-ish your thinking is.

[zook1shoe]

The sharn should never have had a LA, too powerful for a 9 ECL. Itd prob still be playable at double LA

Some of the templates potentially worth the LA that i can think of: Lolth-Touched, Feral, Mineral Warrior, Telther, and IMO the right Tauric/Were-Animal/Were-Vermin critters.

Monsters: Malaugrym? Epic monsters are definitely worth the LA, just the HD part SUCKS. I like me some -25 LA on the elder treant.

Theres several unusual monsters with ECLs that somehow are playable: wolf and tarantula 

[phaedrusxy]

The maug (Fiend Folio) is decent for its LA+HD, as are some of the anthropomorphic animals from SS.

[Ice9]

Some LA is worth it.  Not a lot, but it certainly exists. 

For example the often-seen ones like Half-Minotaur, Mineral Warrior, Lloth-Touched, Feral, and White Dragonspawn.  Those are all in the +1 / +2 range, which makes it easier.

For higher LA, I think that Pixie and Ghost can be worth it for certain character types.  Not for a caster, but a Ghost Rogue works pretty well.

Black Ethergaunt is pretty nice.  Doesn't match up to the stronger casting PrCs like Incantrix, but it's a Wizard plus a bit more, which is plenty for most campaigns.

And of course, in Gestalt, LA is almost always worth it, assuming it only counts as one side.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

3.0e Rakshasa and it's Sav Species racial prog is
worth it, that so yummy magic resistance (not 3.5e)
but it's way better in gestalt.

[zook1shoe]

Dvati

[SorO_Lost]

Dvati are an interesting Race, 2nd party & DM limited aside.

You run two characters that can presumably take a Full-Attack Action each, but 1/2 HP as a front line party member (and only half the magical loot & spell buffs) is bad news if you don't break the game in another way. So are they broken or is they things they are dependent on broken? It's like asking if a hole is the empty space in the middle or the edge around it.

[zook1shoe]

That can be said for many creature's with/without LAs. Obviously the dvati have weaknesses, but so do pixies (like windstorms) and most other ceatures.

I feel like the dvati is a choice that overcomes it's LA when used properly, like a Feral Orc plays on its strengths when not used as an Int-based caster, or a were-squid not running around on a volcano.