When are level adjustments worth it?

[littha]

Having played Succubi on several occasions I have to say that if you are going that deep on ECL you need to be absolutely certain that the campaign will support it.

A Succubus is a playable (though still not optimal) character in an intrique heavy campaing revolving around humanoids. It is not suitable for a dungeon crawl filled with mindless creatures.

That said, at will Greater Teleport and Etherial Jaunt as SLAs can get you out of most any trouble if you need them.

[SorO_Lost]

That's a little extreme Zook, I was meaning used properly.

Dvati have to combine resources to cast spells so they appear intended to be more of a mundane combatant, like a Rogue or possible a Fighter. But they turn that role into a glass cannon, half HP, half the magical gear (since you'll want to equip both), costs two Spell Slots per buff you want them both to have, etc. They are massively defensively penalized for the offensive gain of having two Full-Attack Actions to mess with.

And yet, double damage isn't a big deal. Like a Manyfanged Dagger deals quadruple. That Feral Horc undoubtedly his several multiples and he didn't have to sacrifice defense, only sacrifice fulfilling a role he's not meant to play (cha/int dump).

[phaedrusxy]

That's a little extreme Zook, I was meaning used properly.

Dvati have to combine resources to cast spells so they appear intended to be more of a mundane combatant, like a Rogue or possible a Fighter. But they turn that role into a glass cannon, half HP, half the magical gear (since you'll want to equip both), costs two Spell Slots per buff you want them both to have, etc. They are massively defensively penalized for the offensive gain of having two Full-Attack Actions to mess with.

And yet, double damage isn't a big deal. Like a Manyfanged Dagger deals quadruple. That Feral Horc undoubtedly his several multiples and he didn't have to sacrifice defense, only sacrifice fulfilling a role he's not meant to play (cha/int dump).

It might be interesting to make a psionic BFC Dvati that uses Share Pain + Vigor to overcome the HP problem.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Quanak Lizardfolk with minor hijinks
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20021227b

Duergar with midrange cheese, see thread.


Anybody ever take a hard look at Varrangoin
in Fiend Folio ~pages 181 to 184 ?? !!
Pre-errata (were they?) is Wow, how'd that get missed.

[SorO_Lost]

It might be interesting to make a psionic BFC Dvati that uses Share Pain + Vigor to overcome the HP problem.

And that's what I meant right there.

If you play a Dvati, you instinctively look to some of the most powerful tricks in D&D to compensate for it's negative traits. Imagine if I were trying to say a Feral Orc was a powerful race, thanks to some trick anyone can do to gain +10 Intelligence or even +30. Fundamentally what's called broken or not is a line in the sand drawn and moved by everyone a the table, but Dvati to me are dependent on other high powered tricks to make them useful which gives the misconception that then end result, obviously OP due to the tricks, is powerful due to the race.

Like in all in all honesty, Simulacrum is mechanically a superior twin set up. It has less downsides and you don't need the joint action to cast Spells, in fact it can add it's own Spells to combat each turn, and it's +0 LA with no required commitment of Race. And you know how Spells, even 5th level ones, are better than mundane.

[zook1shoe]

@Soro... Hey, you never said "used properly", so i was making sure you understood my choice.

@awaken... the fact that its a +0 LA (though 2 HD) and good psionics, am I missing something?

@Soro... the upside of dvati vs. simulacrum? Dont need to buy anything or be 9th level to cast it.... starts at ECL 2.

Throw in some lycanthropy or tauric fun could make things... interesting. Broken? Get a Tauric Dvati with a Sharn body

[Dr_emperor]

I think the Dvati can be fun with any class that can pump constitution so incarnate. Course it doses imply that both twins get the soulmelds, can pretend it helps with the item dependence too.

Possibly warlock focused on all day buffs.  I've seen both dragon classes named as possible Dvati too.  Anything that can afford an 18 constitution can get the hit points to work.

[SorO_Lost]

@Soro... the upside of dvati vs. simulacrum? Dont need to buy anything or be 9th level to cast it.... starts at ECL 2.

Simulacrum is ECL 3, it's called "Summon Mirror Mephit".

[awaken_D_M_golem]

@awaken... the fact that its a +0 LA (though 2 HD) and good psionics, am I missing something?

Check the Manifester Level on it's powers,
and the at-wills = conversion to what?
Decent enough stat boosts for the 2 levels, too.

[SorO_Lost]

Check the Manifester Level on it's powers, and the at-wills = conversion to what?

The quick answer is to less than you hope, like take the Quanak and remember there is no such thing as Augmentation in 3.0, so if you're looking at that Mind Thrust wondering if it deals 12d12 damage. Nope, hell it doesn't even deal damage.

(click to show/hide)

Combat Precognition (wis, 1st level, 3/day)
+1 insight to ac for ml/hr or 12 hours, lost if flat-footed.

Lesser Body Adjustment (str, 1st level, 3/day)
Choose one: heal 1d8, +1 fort vs next disease/poison, heal 1 point of temp ability damage.

Lesser Metaphysical Weapon (int, 1st, 3/day)
Weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus to att/dmg for ml/hrs or 12 hours.

Mind Thrust (int, at-will)
Deals 1d2 temp int damage to psionic character or stuns non-psionic for 1d2 rounds, will negs but you roll your save dc (1d20+intmod) making it a strange opposed check that you opponent has extra bonuses against called his base save bonus.

Thought Shield (-, at-will)
Reduce ability damage caused by psionic attacks by -1, bonus to will saves against psionic attack modes but the actual bonus granted depends on exactly which attack power you're saving against. It's a huge pain in the rear.

And yeah, you need at least an 11 in three Ability Scores to use them all, and these Quanak are a +2 LA Race. I bet it suddenly sounds less powerful now doesn't it?

Also the Varrangoins can advance by Class and tell you how to do so, but FF page 11 says it needs an LA entry if it's up for PCs.

[zook1shoe]

@awaken... i see now

@Soro... its still a only a spell. Much harder to kill a creature than stop a spell. But whatever.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Well, you do have to make some conversion decisions.

So 3.0 psi can be (su) or (sp) , mostly ad hoc.
But the way these are behaving more like spells/powers.

Ignoring the ML, the value of the powers = 9 ppoints.
Which by itself is rather tasty for 2 rhd.

So adding back in the ~halfPersist equivalent, and
the 2 feats for +8 (or more) to SR/PR = value of what?

Sure it's hard to place the 12 ML.

At will Mind Thrust and Thought Shield (unupdated)
is not quite early game T.O. on a 3.0e scale.
They don't get the 12 ML in 3.0e mind combat.

Converting isn't really possible, so many
details have changed probably too much.
But whatever the homegame conversion
there is a lot of there there.

If you say the powers have been updated,
here they are, one for one = it's totally sick.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

<snip>

Also the Varrangoins can advance by Class and tell you how to do so, but FF page 11 says it needs an LA entry if it's up for PCs.

hmm, there's some weirdnesses there.

The entry of all 3 have the same wording
and it's in the form of normal PC use.
They're missing that LA+0 line in the
monster stats, is the most likely answer.

But they didn't fix it in the FAQ, the errata
or the 3.5e update (so far as I can tell).
I assumed they had errata'd it ... oops.

The CR system handles it about as
well as it handles any one other CR.
Associated levels add CR quickly.

But they are definitely a bit much
for PCs without a reasonable LA.
Team Chaotic Evil for the partial win. 

[SorO_Lost]

The entry of all 3 have the same wording and it's in the form of normal PC use.

Normal is when they gain a RHD their casting progresses as well but without Class Features. Normal is also Creature X that actually has Y Class Levels. But these things are an abnormal wtfm8.

They have 8 RHD that grant the Wizard's Bonus Feats and the next HD gained operates per 9th-to-10th level Wizard. In other words, it simultaneously obtains the Wizard's 10th level Bonus Feat and it's Feat for having 9HD at the same level.

It's in dire need of some editing, the Errata should have addressed it but like always it only did <10% of it's job.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

aDMg won the thread twice. Yes you can carry an extra LA if you go lower tier. Yes my Balanced ECL variant is practically required for balanced monster PCs. I'd also like to thank Soro for pointing out why my summon spells nerf is required for balanced play as well. 

PLZ's a pimp , yo !

You know it.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Ophidian on p.133-4 of Fiend Folio
has the same missing LA entry listed
below Alignment and Advancement
in the stat block.  Pretty sure that
means it is an LA+0, with the 3 rhd
= 3 ECL.

Planetouched Shyft on p.136-9 of FF
is LA+3 but the overall entry does not
include an ECL conversion.  They do
cover the 1rhd + LA basics elsewhere.

But yeah the write-up for all 3 Varrangoin
to advance a PC class level is very strange. 
Something like the Unbodied in XPH
is comparatively straightforward.

Lesser and Rager aren't really all that
overpowered, but the Arcanist is
better than Tier 1, nearly gestalt.
Very tasty except the CE part.

aDMg won the thread twice ...

  but there's just one  of me (I think).

[LudicSavant]

LA Buy-off math is hard, because math is hard.

I have an old post on LA Buy-off math.  Mostly about retroactively estimating how much the XP River *would* have impacted you when your game isn't starting from level 1.

Thought I'd post this since I couldn't find an intact chart with this information elsewhere.

As many of you already know, XP gain isn't linear (see "Experience is a River").  Just flip your DMG open to page 38, and you’ll see a chart that indicates how XP gain works.  Each time you complete an encounter, you gain an amount of XP based on the challenge rating of the encounter and your level.  If a character of a lower level completes the same challenge, they gain more XP than a higher level character completing the same challenge.  The upshot of this is that XP costs don’t keep you behind the curve permanently.  You can use a ton of abilities with XP costs and never get more than one encounter behind the other PCs, so long as you don’t just spam these abilities (in fact, it’s technically possible to slightly overshoot the XP of other PCs due to getting “overflow XP” from the last encounter of a level).  In other words, you shouldn’t be afraid to craft items or prepare things like Alter Fortune, and if you lose a level for dying you aren’t just permanently screwed.

You can afford to use a few abilities with XP costs and never get more than one encounter behind the other PCs, so long as you don’t just spam these abilities (in fact, it’s technically possible to slightly overshoot the XP of other PCs due to getting “overflow XP” from the last encounter of a level).  In other words, you shouldn’t be afraid to craft items or prepare things like Alter Fortune, and if you lose a level for dying you aren’t just permanently screwed.

Alternatively, you could treat “spams XP cost abilities” as a sort of LA+1 template that you can’t buy off, and use the constant bonus XP from being a level behind to fuel your abilities with XP costs.  This can lead to item crafting characters that have much more wealth than usual, which may be worth staying a level behind for some.

But let's skip to the chase. 

Level Adjustment and the River:

LA tends to be fairly crippling in D&D.  Put simply, odds are that if you have an LA+2 race, the LA+2 race’s benefits likely aren’t worth as much as 2 class levels.  This becomes especially true at higher levels, where it’s unlikely that your LA+2 race’s benefits are worth even one class level.  A common solution is to use the LA buyoff variant in Unearthed Arcana, found here:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

The benefit of the LA buyoff variant is that you can spend a flat XP cost to “buy off” your LA at certain levels, at which point you’ll start to catch up to your teammates due to the effect of being a level behind.  If you’re playing a game from 1-20, this is pretty straightforward.  However, if you’re starting at, say, level 10, then applying the effect of the XP river and LA buyoff calculations retroactively can be rather non-trivial.  So, to save you time, I’ve done the math for you!  Simply look up what level a “normal” character is starting at, and the following charts will give you your level and XP if you have LA+1 or +2.

LA BUYOFF (LA+1, no racial hit dice)

Calculations done assuming you receive 13⅓  encounters of each CR level, divided amongst 4 players (e.g. standard assumptions according to the DMG). 
If everyone else just hit level X, you are Y (With Z XP)
to Level 1:  You don’t exist
to Level 2:  Level 1 (1,000XP)
to Level 3:  Level 2 (3,000XP)
to Level 4:  Level 3 (3,000XP) (You just bought off your LA!  Now the XP River starts to kick in)
to Level 5:  Level 4 (7,337.5 XP)
to Level 6:  Level 5 (12,512.5 XP)
to Level 7:  Level 6 (19,075 XP)
to Level 8:  Level 7 (26,525 XP)
to Level 9:  Level 8 (34,900XP)
to Level 10:  Level 9 (44,350 XP)
to Level 11:  Level 10 (54,612.5 XP)
to Level 12:  Level 11 (65,912.5 XP)
to Level 13:  Level 13 (78,250 XP)

So, there you have it.  Using the above methodology, LA+1 becomes free by level 13 with LA buyoff.  Differences in the order in which encounters are received can affect your overflow rate and thus change what level you “catch up” at but this should calibrate your expectations.  Note also that even though you won't be permanently caught up until around level 13, you'll spend a while only lagging a couple of encounters behind them.

Examples of worthwhile (yet not wildly broken) LA+1s:  Chaos Gnome, Goliath, Draconic


If your DM allows LA Buyoff, you can expect your Powerful Build to become free by level 13

LA BUYOFF (LA+2, no racial hit dice)

to Level 1:  You don’t exist
to Level 2:  You don’t exist.  I’d say it sucks to be you, but nothing can be you, because you can’t be something that doesn’t exist.
to Level 3:  Level 1 (3000XP)
to Level 4:  Level 2 (6000XP)
to Level 5:  Level 3 (10000XP)
to Level 6:  Level 4 (15000XP)
to Level 7:  Level 5 (21000XP)
to Level 8:  Level 6 (21000 XP) (You just bought off part of your LA and are now ECL 7.  The XP river starts to kick in)
to Level 9:  Level 7 (30687.5XP)
to Level 10:  Level 8 (41037.5XP)
to Level 11:  Level 10 (45,450XP)
(You just bought off your LA again mid-way through here, and are now ECL 10.  You actually manage to ding twice here, but you’re still a level behind your companions)
Note:  By the time everyone else is level 11, you are 1 level behind instead of 2.
to Level 12:  Level 11 (58,750XP)
to Level 13:  Level 12 (72,775XP)
to Level 14:  Level 13 (87,650XP) 
to Level 15:  Level 14 (102,887.5XP) 
to Level 16:  Level 15 (118,787.5XP) 
to Level 17:  Level 16 (135,275XP) 
to Level 18:  Level 17 (152,800XP)
to Level 19:  Level 19 (171,362.5 XP)

LA +2 becomes “free” by level 19.  You are only one level behind your companions by level 11.

Notes:  If the XP rate is faster, or you’re typically facing encounters of higher CR than your own, or there are less PCs in the party, then you’ll tend to get more overflow due to XP coming in larger individual chunks, and you will catch up faster.  If the XP rate is slower, or you’re typically facing encounters of lower CR than your own, or there are more PCs in the party, you’ll tend to get less overflow due to XP coming in smaller individual chunks, and you will catch up slower.

A Note on Ad Hoc XP: 
Many groups don’t like to give out XP by encounter, and indeed the DMG itself offers a few variants for handing out XP.  However, sometimes these groups forget to take the “XP river” into account, and this is rather punitive to characters who fall behind on XP for any reason.  XP costs suddenly become much more onerous, and a character who loses a level from death simply stays behind forever.  For those who want to maintain the ability of players to “catch up” while not worrying about the encounter XP system, a question arises as to how much they should be scaling their XP rewards for lower level characters.

One answer is rather simple.  Simply treat your roleplaying / quest / whatever XP as encounters with a given CR, and reference the encounter table.  If you want smaller or larger chunks of XP, just multiply or divide.  You may want to be careful about handing out larger chunks of XP, however, since this can result in players who are behind getting more overflow XP than usual.  If you are going to hand out XP for entire adventures, you could instead hand it out as if it were “X encounters.”

Cheers,
Ludic

So, LA is definitely worth it at the point where the "XP River" effect makes it free.  However, where exactly that point is varies a bit because of the XP overflow effect.