The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?

[Libertad]

If online accounts of game sessions are anything to go by, the Paladin seems to be the most problematic core class in 3rd edition.  Be it a player using his "holy authority" to boss his fellow PCs around to the DM conjuring up contrived ways to make him fall, the Paladin just seems to be a magnet for trouble.

Part of this may be due to the incredibly high standards of the Paladin's Code.  You cannot lie, cheat, steal, or use poison under any circumstances, respect legitimate authority (too broad), or associate with anyone who offends your moral code (does this mean that Paladins cannot adventure with "thieving rogues" or anti-government rebels?).

As per the SRD, the Paladin only loses their powers when they grossly violate the code of conduct.  I interpret this to mean that willful, immoral acts that go beyond the pale of acceptable behavior.  But just because I draw the line here doesn't mean that other players and DMs follow suit.

In my games, I alter the code so to be more flexible.  For example, lying to the drow about the elf sanctuary's location ("Holy temple?  I don't know what you're talking about!") won't cause a loss of powers.  If the act of lying helps prevent suffering and the loss of innocent lives, then the Gods of Good may let this infraction slide.  In most casual circumstances, Paladins are expected to be honest so that they can cultivate a trustworthy demeanor and serve as a role model to others.

How do you folks handle the Paladin's Code, and how flexible do you make it?

[Ryu Hayabusa]

I have any paladin (or cleric for that matter) draw up their own code of conduct with what they can and cannot do. It's much more individualized and both of you can get on the same page on what's acceptable and isn't. It helps neatly sidestep the headache of the code of conduct. The other half is what you say - use common sense. Unless your paladin follows the god of Lawful Uptightedness, minor violations and pushing the envelope shouldn't be a big deal.

[ImperatorK]

"Holy temple?  I don't know what you're talking about!"

A proper answer would be "I'll tell you nothing, even if I know."

[Sinfire Titan]

"Rules don't exist to restrict you. They exist so you may know what your freedoms are."

[Kajhera]

I'm using the Software Engineer's Code of Ethics at the moment.

Ethical codes are guidelines to your judgement, to help you deal with situations from first principles. They're liable to contradict each other because of how much they can apply. Pick your guiding premise, and use the code to help you achieve it; don't just use the code for its own sake.

So, my ethical principle is to act in the public interest. All the paragraphs more that follow are guidelines, written for my benefit in doing that optimally (for being a software engineer, I obviously changed some wording). Sometimes they will come in conflict - but that's not such a problem because I know what my first principle is, and how I should prioritize.

My moral principle is to act towards the greatest good, but I haven't codified my morality to my satisfaction.

My character couldn't pull off a lie if she tried so that's not an issue. xD Maintaining privacy is a separate thing from deception though, the first tends to be ethical and the second unethical.

[Nachofan99]

We only allow characters to play Paladins that *want* to struggle with moral dilemmas; otherwise just play a Crusader.

We also have the player work with the DM in building a specific code for their character.

[Solo]

"I AM THE LAW!"

[Libertad]

Not common, but some players/GM interpret Paladin behavior akin to a violent zealot that must kill every evil creature they encounter, even if they surrender or have a chance at redemption.

Although the Code precludes association with evil, how is this aspect handled?  By striving to redeem evil, you have to meet and converse with the immoral being on a regular basis.

[solara]

I'm actually working on a paladin-esque fix, and what the code comes down to is, "don't tick off your god" with a stern warning to the DM of "don't be a dick" and quite a bit of fun roleplay and fluff to work on. So, an easy answer would be to have the player consider the god they're following, and what the god embodies. Go from there. Or start with a character concept, and have the player pick one or two virtues for their character to strive to embody, and a vice or two that also define the character's personality.

Example: Serilda Stormheart, Devoted of Raederic (I call my paladin fix the "Devoted"). Embodies: the virtues of mercy and justice, with the vices of hatred (in nicer terms, retribution) and tyranny (control). So Serilda strives to be merciful to creatures that deserve mercy, but struggles to not view the world in terms of good and bad. In action, she used non-lethal damage to stop a mob that was attacking the party because of an over-zealous, xenophobic preacher, but she is also capable of killing enemies without a thought for mercy when she feels that justice is better served by vengeance. And if she gets a chance to sneak attack or kill enemies who are unaware, she takes it. To do otherwise (especially since the lives of all humans are at stake in this campaign, but she would probably do the same if a smaller number were at stake) would be against everything she believes in, even if it isn't honorable.

That's my view of a paladin, at least. Not a knight in shining armor - though such a character is possible with my fix, too - but a complex character that has a moral compass and codes but regularly struggles with her beliefs.

[Kajhera]

Association: I pretty much interpret it to mean don't work with or have my work associated with them. Educating and redeeming them, or even interacting with them at a basic level is a separate concern from forming or joining an association with them.

IE: Wouldn't want to share an adventuring party with, absolutely want to redeem.

[bhu]

I dont interpret it.  In my games all gods can have paladins, and the code they obey is based on the particular god they follow.  The God of Evil buttrape for example probably insists his military disciples follow a different set of ethics than the Goddess of fluffy kittens.  Plus Paladins have the downside of Gods in my campaigns being the interfering Greek type.  If you don't do what they say, when they say, they show up in person demanding answers.  It's rare that they outright cut the players off though, when they can interfere with their lives instead.  As an upside players pick gods whose ethos they are really likely to agree with, and bad stuff rarely happens.

[Complete4th]

Words can't express my exasperation that an entire base class is devoted to such a narrow archetype.

I'm actually working on a paladin-esque fix, and what the code comes down to is, "don't tick off your god" with a stern warning to the DM of "don't be a dick" and quite a bit of fun roleplay and fluff to work on.

I dont interpret it.  In my games all gods can have paladins, and the code they obey is based on the particular god they follow.

So my solution is much the same. The Code and the alignment restriction are optional; if a player wants to follow the Code, he's welcome to. But I don't interpret or enforce it; that's what role playing is for.

[LordBlades]

In my group if somebody wants to play a paladin he/she usually has a chat with whoever's DMing to agree on the finer aspects of ther Paladin's Code and how they view the more debatable aspects of it. Some of my friends favor a stricter interpretation (they feel that being held to such a high moral standard is more RP fun) while others (I'm in this side) prefers a more lenient code.

[veekie]

This issue I tackle it twofold:

The code itself - Tie the code closer to the god in question, they hunt the deity's chosen foes and defend the divine portfolio. This usually comes with a loosening of alignment(but not TOO much, because the gameplay value of smiting things other than evil is pretty low).

Enforcement - I interpret gross violations as intentional violations to the code's spirit, direct perversion of the code or persistent violations of the code, lesser violations are acceptable, provided the paladin is making an honest effort to adhere to the code. The characters the code were based on(take the knights of the round table for example) were not great because perfect people, but because they strive to be great despite mortal failings.

[Libertad]

"Rules don't exist to restrict you. They exist so you may know what your freedoms are."

Is this a quote from somewhere?  Google failed me.

[Sinfire Titan]

"Rules don't exist to restrict you. They exist so you may know what your freedoms are."

Is this a quote from somewhere?  Google failed me.

It's from Nier, Drakengard's spiritual successor.

I'm not surprised that you couldn't find it. The Drakengard trilogy is really obscure, and needs more love.

[Libertad]

http://lparchive.org/Drakengard/

DRAKENGUARD!!!

I don't have any strong feelings about Drakenguard, this is just a frequent quote about its more frustrating elements on this LP.

[Sinfire Titan]

http://lparchive.org/Drakengard/

DRAKENGUARD!!!

I don't have any strong feelings about Drakenguard, this is just a frequent quote about its more frustrating elements on this LP.

Meh. I enjoyed the game for the storyline and background. The gameplay, while repetitive, was somewhat relaxing for me (except 2, which was hell on the higher difficulties).


Nier is similar in gameplay, but a step up in story by comparison to 2 (seriously, the only good things to come out of 2 were Uric, Manah, and Caim).

[CE2JRH]

If the paladin ever does something that I dislike in any way, they lose all their powers, I destroy their favourite magic item, and take away two con just for good measure. Oh, and they're forced to take levels in monk from here on in.


Nah, just kidding. On  the rare occasion I can't convince someone to do Crusader or Cleric/Crusader/RKV or Cleric/Ordained Champion, they make up their own code based on their god, hand mea copy at the start, and I tell them to stick to it. Once had a chaotic neutral paladin/rogue of Olidimarra that was obliged to perform a heist worth 200gp*char-level once per month, which was basically an excuse for me to write in heist-adventures all the time, which that player really enjoyed and wanted more of.

[Kajhera]

I personally am finding it rewarding to play a LG prestige paladin of a LN god whose calling to the greater good distances her from the simpler, quieter life and faith she thought awaited her, while also granting her more opportunity as an ambassador of her faith.