Author Topic: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?  (Read 24579 times)

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2011, 07:08:03 PM »
there was a very good advice on playing a paladin on gitp. it was called

 Lessons for paladins [rules discussion disguised as prose]

copy and paste this into your adress bar

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34312
Please, call me Count :).

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2011, 01:29:21 PM »
Are they playing an interesting, well-realized character?  If so, then I do not worry about it one bit.  If not, then I call them on their inconsistencies and try and parse what is blowing off steam in the pseudo-wargame environment that is D&D combat and what is going to get in the way of verisimilitude of the story and the setting.  The latter I deal with outside the rules. 

This is, however, the same exact thing I do for every character.  It strikes me as mind-boggling that Paladin (that oh so overpowered class) has this extra "so difficult to play that it will induce long-winded moral debates in a fantasy adventure game that everyone, including moral philosophers, hate" limitation laid upon it.  It's further strange that the Clerics, the actual priests of such and such deity, do not have any such restriction. 

That being said, we've never had an issue with a paladin-type character at my tables in like a decade or more.  And, we sometimes play with wonky moralities, which cause us to pause and ask some questions about the prevailing social mores (e.g., Ancient Greece, Icelandic Sagas, high magic version of the Crusades). 

Offline Kajhera

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2011, 09:49:04 AM »
Okay, I'm having a problem with being a paladin now
A problem, persisting from my male paladin who was also heavily roleplayed
(Though this one swings both ways so it's exacerbated)
And this problem is, you play a paragon of virtue
And everyone falls in love with you

Offline veekie

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2011, 10:03:48 AM »
Then virtuously deny their love, for you are not worthy and meant for another. Whether they pursue you is immaterial, but what you do in return is.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2011, 10:07:37 AM »
Okay, I'm having a problem with being a paladin now
A problem, persisting from my male paladin who was also heavily roleplayed
(Though this one swings both ways so it's exacerbated)
And this problem is, you play a paragon of virtue
And everyone falls in love with you

Courtly Love - a tried and true paladin trope, and makes for some great roleplaying opportunities^^

Offline Kajhera

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2011, 10:23:30 AM »
I don't have a vow of chastity, just an obligation not to belong to any before my calling...
... Including my god. Which makes our relationship a little interesting.
She's definitely starting to understand the purpose of a vow of chastity though.

Offline Kajhera

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2011, 10:24:47 AM »
Okay, I'm having a problem with being a paladin now
A problem, persisting from my male paladin who was also heavily roleplayed
(Though this one swings both ways so it's exacerbated)
And this problem is, you play a paragon of virtue
And everyone falls in love with you

Courtly Love - a tried and true paladin trope, and makes for some great roleplaying opportunities^^

There is difficulty with loving from afar when attracted to someone who is often reading your mind (bodyriding ghost) xD

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2011, 10:45:25 AM »
As long as your DM wouldn't make you fall for it, I would say let your character sleep with a few women fawning over you. Then let him decide what to do. The character is only humanoid after all and should be allowed to have moments of weakness. He can't be a paragon all the time, just trying his best to do so. It should open up some interesting role playing as well as moral quandaries for your character to contemplate.

Offline Kajhera

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2011, 10:56:27 AM »
Don't worry, he didn't make me fall for it.
Also she's human, entirely. Not even dragonblooded.
Yeah - after you die you do some rash things - in this case it involved three of us, all who have died once now one still dead
The consequences are what I'm dealing with now xD Certainly interesting roleplay, but tricky.
This paladin's female, the male one just had the same issue of people falling for him...

Offline SneeR

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2011, 11:03:16 AM »
What is with everyone and their "sex is bad" mentality? Sex is a beautiful and natural part of being a human being, as long as it is more or less vanilla sex with no kinks. And, don't forget, species are based on its continuing practice!

"Lawful Good" does not mean "Hardcore Catholic." What is sinful about making love to a person you have mutual respect and care for?
I mean, sure, seedy back alley hooker sex, or taking advantage of your fans once you've amassed fame is dirty and morally ambiguous, but normal sex under normal circumstances is fine! I'd go so far as to support a one-night stand, if the paladin doesn't make a thing of it!

I reject the notion that healthy sex is something to be ashamed of. Even masturbation is healthy in moderation, and no paladin should fall for either thing EVER.

The only kind of sex in D&D that is morally ambiguous is cross-species sex, given the fact that other races can be intelligent, thus capable of falling in love with at least on an intellectual level even if they are gross-looking. Of course, there is nothing wrong with humanoids of different races making love!
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Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2011, 11:09:03 AM »
What is with everyone and their "sex is bad" mentality? Sex is a beautiful and natural part of being a human being, as long as it is more or less vanilla sex with no kinks. And, don't forget, species are based on its continuing practice!

"Lawful Good" does not mean "Hardcore Catholic." What is sinful about making love to a person you have mutual respect and care for?
I mean, sure, seedy back alley hooker sex, or taking advantage of your fans once you've amassed fame is dirty and morally ambiguous, but normal sex under normal circumstances is fine! I'd go so far as to support a one-night stand, if the paladin doesn't make a thing of it!

I reject the notion that healthy sex is something to be ashamed of. Even masturbation is healthy in moderation, and no paladin should fall for either thing EVER.

The only kind of sex in D&D that is morally ambiguous is cross-species sex, given the fact that other races can be intelligent, thus capable of falling in love with at least on an intellectual level even if they are gross-looking. Of course, there is nothing wrong with humanoids of different races making love!
I wasn't saying sex is bad. I just know that many DMs try to impose vow of chastity, or near enough to it, on paladin's as part of their code. In addition given the description of circumstances the paladin could be viewed as taking advantage of these common people by having sex with them and leaving for the next adventure. It is like the rock star nailing all of their groupies, but now the rock star is supposed to be a paragon of virtue and righteousness so leaving a bunch of heartbroken villagers in your wake isn't exactly a good thing.

Offline SneeR

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2011, 11:19:34 AM »
I wasn't saying sex is bad. I just know that many DMs try to impose vow of chastity, or near enough to it, on paladin's as part of their code. In addition given the description of circumstances the paladin could be viewed as taking advantage of these common people by having sex with them and leaving for the next adventure. It is like the rock star nailing all of their groupies, but now the rock star is supposed to be a paragon of virtue and righteousness so leaving a bunch of heartbroken villagers in your wake isn't exactly a good thing.

Yes, I wasn't getting on you or anything. Your comment just happened to remind me of a lot of people's interpretations of the code. If killing is a-ok, then screwing should certainly be!

It's like the story where the paladin sees a barmaiden in a lowcut blouse. She bends down to take his order, and the DM says:
"Make a Will Save!"
Rolls a 7
"Your head is filled with carnal thoughts! You lose all of your powers!"
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Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2011, 11:22:40 AM »
I wasn't saying sex is bad. I just know that many DMs try to impose vow of chastity, or near enough to it, on paladin's as part of their code. In addition given the description of circumstances the paladin could be viewed as taking advantage of these common people by having sex with them and leaving for the next adventure. It is like the rock star nailing all of their groupies, but now the rock star is supposed to be a paragon of virtue and righteousness so leaving a bunch of heartbroken villagers in your wake isn't exactly a good thing.

Yes, I wasn't getting on you or anything. Your comment just happened to remind me of a lot of people's interpretations of the code. If killing is a-ok, then screwing should certainly be!

It's like the story where the paladin sees a barmaiden in a lowcut blouse. She bends down to take his order, and the DM says:
"Make a Will Save!"
Rolls a 7
"Your head is filled with carnal thoughts! You lose all of your powers!"
I understand a statement triggering a soapbox rant. I had the same thing prompt my discussion of intentionally playing weak characters.

I saw that story before and I still think the DM should have been beaten for that. Just don't use the books, it is hard to get blood out of the pages.  :lol

Offline Kajhera

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2011, 12:25:44 PM »
What is with everyone and their "sex is bad" mentality? Sex is a beautiful and natural part of being a human being, as long as it is more or less vanilla sex with no kinks. And, don't forget, species are based on its continuing practice!

"Lawful Good" does not mean "Hardcore Catholic." What is sinful about making love to a person you have mutual respect and care for?
I mean, sure, seedy back alley hooker sex, or taking advantage of your fans once you've amassed fame is dirty and morally ambiguous, but normal sex under normal circumstances is fine! I'd go so far as to support a one-night stand, if the paladin doesn't make a thing of it!

I reject the notion that healthy sex is something to be ashamed of. Even masturbation is healthy in moderation, and no paladin should fall for either thing EVER.

The only kind of sex in D&D that is morally ambiguous is cross-species sex, given the fact that other races can be intelligent, thus capable of falling in love with at least on an intellectual level even if they are gross-looking. Of course, there is nothing wrong with humanoids of different races making love!

Well, let me put it this way, sex isn't bad, but the consequences this time...

The barbarian stormed off in a jealous rage and left us to fight a vampire, who was pretty much begging us to destroy her but had to resist by her orders, alone, shirtless and certainly armorless. After probably the longest fight I've ever had in D&D... we failed her. She escaped. :( She's going to be punished now, suffer and be ordered far more firmly to kill us, her assets have been dissolved and are being used to hunt her down.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 08:05:17 PM by Kajhera »

Offline NunoM

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2011, 07:51:36 PM »
The way i see it, the code for the Paladin is the same as his deity's... I never had to make a decision on this as a DM, but if i did, i would definetly make a Paladin adhere to the same alignment as the deity and uphold it's principles. I see the Paladin as the deity's enforcer in the "mortal realm" and would ask the player for a summing up of those principles, applying penalties if the character diverts from them (i.e.: to lie and cheat is perfectly legit if you're a Paladin of the god of deceit)

Concerning sex and intimate relationships of Paladins: have sex and be merry!
To be virtous doesn't mean the Paladin has to be chaste... unless of course, the char takes a vow on that and it conforms to the deity's creed. If the Paladin (assuming LG alignment) is perfectly honest with the situation and the partner (ex.: do NOT promise you'll be there forever, if you're leaving the next day...), i wouldn't consider it a problem.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2011, 08:06:30 PM »
"The code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules."

Because it had to be done...

Strangely enough... I have never DMed for a guy playing a Paladin, and it's been too long since I actually rolled a Paladin for me to remember how this worked out...  My groups tend toward neutral characters, while I tend toward Chaotic Good ones, so Paladins really don't work out all that much...

Offline SneeR

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2011, 09:32:32 PM »
I always rejected the notion that paladins need to have a god. Clerics are the holy warriors. Paladins are the embodiment of goodness. They can be good for goodness' sake, as the song says.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2011, 10:01:29 PM »
I always rejected the notion that paladins need to have a god. Clerics are the holy warriors. Paladins are the embodiment of goodness. They can be good for goodness' sake, as the song says.
They don't. Only in FR.
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Offline SneeR

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2011, 10:02:48 PM »
I always rejected the notion that paladins need to have a god. Clerics are the holy warriors. Paladins are the embodiment of goodness. They can be good for goodness' sake, as the song says.
They don't. Only in FR.
I know, but 4E codified that they do need a god, and a large number of people seem to be under the assumption that this is true in 3.5, too.
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: The Paladin Problem: how do you interpret the Code?
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2011, 10:22:48 PM »
I always rejected the notion that paladins need to have a god. Clerics are the holy warriors. Paladins are the embodiment of goodness. They can be good for goodness' sake, as the song says.
They don't. Only in FR.
I know, but 4E codified that they do need a god, and a large number of people seem to be under the assumption that this is true in 3.5, too.

Well, you're also operating under the faulty assumption that Paladins can be good for goodness' sake. Paladins in 3.5 aren't the Paragons of Good that, I feel, most people associate them with. A 3.5 Paladin's goodness is tempered by justice. When his good deeds start to undermine legitimate authority, then he must reconsider his actions. It goes the other way, of course, but the implication of being good for goodness' sake is being unfettered by any other motivation than to do and be good.