[3.5, TO] About Psions being more broken than Wizards

[awaken_D_M_golem]

y'know , it occurs to me 
(wow this is like 10 years after the original discussions took place)

that this is another symptom of the "Spell Casting is (sp) (su) or (ex) , but we don't know exactly what it is, so Polymorph!!" problem.

[SorO_Lost]

It doesn't help Special Abilities were terribly written when they were first printed too.

The PHB set them within it's Magic Overview chapter and designating that there are four types (Na/Ex/Su/SLA) and one of those was a global catch all. The MM1 in turn would claim that all Special Abilities & Special Qualities are a Special Ability and Special Abilities must be one of three types (Ex/Su/SLA). Now people by default are horribly narrow minded and stupid, otherwise there wouldn't be so many damn fallacies out there. If "Spells" is listed as an SQ it must be a S. Ability and therefor must be Ex/Su/SLA, what sounds the best? Blammo that's it and damn the inability to prove any of it. 

Things were clarified later on when the stat block revamped moved "Spells" outside of the SQ & S. Ability and then the Natural Ability entry was rewritten to be less of a catch all. People could finally come around to realizing that their cookie cutter closet contained more than three shelves and wasn't the only room in the house to store stuff and listen to what the rules actually say and remain consistent about. But if they didn't botch the crap out of things at the start there would have been less of an issue.

It's sort of like Unarmed Strike. Did you notice half-way through the rules it got dropped as a Simple Weapon? By the RC there were "weapons", "natural weapons", and "unarmed strike". A rule format that'd be held over clear into 5th Edition. But thanks to the PHB listing it on the table you think it's solidly a "Simple Weapon" rather than in many ways mimic'ing one.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

... Things were clarified later on when the stat block revamped moved "Spells" outside of the SQ & S. Ability and then the Natural Ability entry was rewritten to be less of a catch all ...

I totally missed that, as a rule change.
The last monster book I bought was MM3,
spent plenty of time on the SRD (unupdated)
but then did see that with FC1 ... hmm

When did they make that change?
Was there ever a short little rules box descripto thingy for it?

Honestly I don't remember any discussion on it at all.
(not saying there wasn't, or there shouldn't have been)

[SorO_Lost]

When did they make that change?

I think the DMGII was the first book to introduce the change to monster entries. Page 160 calls it a new format and details it on page 173.

[Pippin]

One of the things I like with Psions is their Metaconcert power. I just noticed that, with Kaelik's unlimited cloning trick, I could use the Cooperative Spell metamagic feat to increase the DC and the CL of whatever spell to whatever number I like. It's so ridiculous. It's the first trick I know that actually allows Wizards arbitrarily high DCs and CLs.

[KellKheraptis]

One of the things I like with Psions is their Metaconcert power. I just noticed that, with Kaelik's unlimited cloning trick, I could use the Cooperative Spell metamagic feat to increase the DC and the CL of whatever spell to whatever number I like. It's so ridiculous. It's the first trick I know that actually allows Wizards arbitrarily high DCs and CLs.

Minus nested GCF's and Spell Engines tied to Node Genesis of course.

[SorO_Lost]

A Spell Engine with Node Genesis does nothing so where are you going with that? I mean, overlooking the fact that Spell Engine was updated to be a Wizard's quick spell swapper in the SpC, the 3.0 outdated version can only absorb Spells directed at it and any effect carried in or already there is ignored so I'm not sure how you're using it seeing how it never once says you can use the Spells stored in it beyond it's self-destruction (which is capped at 20d6 damage anyway).

What I do know is GCF/Node is a horrible combo that should never be mentioned on an optimization board. Basically let's start with a CL of 20, GCF brings this to CL30. By expending 5,000xp and waiting almost 30 years Node Genesis can create a Class 6 Node, alternatively you can spend 30,000xp and have it as fast as you can spare the Slots for it. And now we get into some heavy TO because Node Magic only provides a CL increase during casting and GCF only provides a CL increase when a creature dies to it's once per round save-or-die so we're going to break the rules and claim GCF ticks, and successfully kills 3 creatures, in the middle of your next Casting Action.

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+9 
20 base, +6 node, +50% gcf, equals 39.

And at that CL your new Node's maximum width is 780ft. But since a Node Diameter improves around the rate of last+40ft per excluding the Class 1-to-2 which is +30ft. What I mean is Class 2's 40ft + (40x2) equals Class 3's 120ft, 3's 120ft + (40x3) equals 4's 240ft, 240ft+(40x4) equals 5's 400ft and 400+(40*5) equals 6's 600ft. So a Class 7's minimum diameter is 600+(40*6) or 840ft. The "combo" dies on the first iteration. Maybe you can claim you started with a CL of 100 and reach a higher Node Class but because the size and cost to use exponentially goes up faster than it's CL increase it's one of the worst ways to punch your self in the nuts short of playing a Fighter that keeps taking Toughness.

And even if you plugged infinite XP and TO Action breaking and a base CL of 10,000,000 into this Node Genesis crap to make it worth while, to benefit from the CL increase you need to make an Int Check, DC 5+(Class * 5)+Spell Level so you'd also need a method that constantly pumps your Int up as well and we're right back to Manipulative Form. At least Co-Operative Spell, which requires everyone to invest in the same Spell/Feat/Action, at least does the job it sets out to do. Take Leadership and blammo +164 to CL.

[Pippin]

Minus nested GCF's

Last I studied the issue, it was a bit hard to pull off the CF/GCF loop for a Wizard. You'd need a feat to get the spells or something annoying.

Let alone the fact that the CL increases granted by these spells "essentially arise from the same source". One stacking with the other is something I find quite debatable.

[Azrael]

To actually answer pippin's original question, no, there is nothing class-oriented in the game other than dweomerkeeper that can cast a costless ice assassin. Sure, items can do it, but since everyone can purchase any item I would say that things like Candles of Invocation cannot be taken into account when comparing classes.     

Dweomerkeeper is undoubtably the most powerful prestige class in the game (yes, ignoring thrallherds getting a dweomerkeeper as a thrall, because then it still involves dweomerkeepers) and really should have it's own tier (+3) because of how ridiculously broken it is.

If we ignore Ice Assassin, then dweomerkeeper loses some (but not all) of its power, since dweomerkeepers, once they hit epic, can develop any epic spell in the game (infinite stats, etc...yes this is basically another way to get pun pun without manipulate form (maybe the only other way) that I've never seen anyone talk about (as far as I know I invented it), albeit at a higher level) for 9k gold and cast it for free. So yes, because of a single prestige class wizards are unquestionably more powerful (again barring items).

[SorO_Lost]

To actually answer pippin's original question, no, there is nothing class-oriented in the game other than dweomerkeeper that can cast a costless ice assassin.

Technically speaking Fission doesn't kick back XP costs. I mean I suppose it comes off like a "rules don't say" point and while we can split hairs on what effects should be delegated back and forth however we want all day all that really matters is when the clone dies there is no rejoining. IE murdered clone does not pass it's damage back to you when the power ends. So if it were to use Energy Drain, which isn't even transferred to begin with since the clone rejoins you with two anyway, to turn it's levels into an XP pool to cast various powers. No matter how strongly you feel those negative effects should pass back to the caster when they rejoin it simply never happens.

It's definitely cheesy, TO, balance breaking, you should never attempt this in a game ever, etc. But you can harness your Fissioned clone's separate body, mundane items, powers, memories, levels, etc and all it costs you is a Negative Level that you can later save against to avoid permanent level loss. You can use it as a proxy for just about anything including creating Ice Assassins, assuming it has the ability to of course.

[Azrael]

That's too TO for my taste.

It might not specifically say so, but I think the intent is for you to lose everything the clone loses. Sure you could argue otherwise to a DM, but I always prefer methods that don't rely on interpretation to methods that need to be fudged because intent that is completely obvious must be argued against.       

Either way we're still talking about a cerebralmancer (if it's going to have both fission and ice assassin) or a thrallherd with a fusioned wizard thrall, so at some point wizards come into the mix which also answers the question.

[Pippin]

Dweomerkeeper is undoubtably the most powerful prestige class in the game (yes, ignoring thrallherds getting a dweomerkeeper as a thrall, because then it still involves dweomerkeepers) and really should have it's own tier (+3) because of how ridiculously broken it is.

Well I might be wrong, but I believe that Shadowcraft Mages are extremely powerful as well. These two PrCs are too different to be compared however. If Shadowcraft Mage is not the most powerful PrC, it should be a close second. And that's coming from someone who believes that Miracle should, under no circumstances, ever be considered a Wizard/Sorcerer spell. Shadowcraft Mages can basically cast as many 9th-level (or lower) Conjuration/Evocation spells as you want every round. They need Residual Magic as well as the Dweomerkeeper/Incantatrix's capstone though. Let me explain.

For moderate people:

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If you use Arcane Thesis on Silent Image, you get to prepare a twinned, repeated Silent Image with no level adjustment other than that of Heighten Spell ¹. You'd also be casting this spell with an effective level of X+2, if you choose to combine Sanctum Spell with Acorn of Far Travel and Heighten Spell with Earth Spell.

1st round: Cast a twinned, repeated, 9th-level Silent Image as a standard action. (You cast two (2x1) 9th-level spells this round.)
2nd round: Cast a twinned, repeated, 1st-level Silent Image as a standard action and use Residual Magic to heighten it to the 9th level for free. Then cast a twinned, repeated, quickened 1st-level Silent Image (which was prepared as a 3rd-level spell) as a swift action and again, use Residual Magic to heighten it to the 9th level for free. (You cast six (2x2 this round plus 2x1 from last round) 9th-level spells this round.)
3rd round: Cast a twinned, repeated, 9th-level Silent Image as a standard action, then cast another one as a swift action (Residual Magic quickens it for free). (You cast eight (2x2 this round plus 2x2 from last round) 9th-level spells this round.
4th round: Repeat 2nd round and cast eight (2x2 this round plus 2x2 from last round) 9th-level spells this round.
5th round: Repeat 3rd round and cast eight (2x2 this round plus 2x2 from last round) 9th-level spells this round.
Etc.

Moderate people cast eight 9th-level spells each round, and it takes them 3 rounds to set up the loop.

For irritated people:

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You could also use Arcane Thesis on Celerity, you'd get to prepare a twinned, repeated Celerity with a level adjustment of +3 ².

1st round: Cast a twinned, repeated Celerity as a swift action to get two additional standard actions. Use all three standard actions to cast three twinned, repeated 9th-level Silent Images. (You cast six (3x2) 9th-level spells this round.)
2nd round: Cast a repeated Celerity as a swift action (Residual Magic twins it for free) to get two additional standard actions. With last round's Celerities, you get another two standard actions. Use all five standard actions to cast one twinned, repeated 9th-level Silent Image (you need it for next round with Residual Magic) as well as four twinned, repeated 1st-level Silent Images (Residual Magic heightens all these to the 9th level for free). (You cast sixteen (5x2 this round, plus 3x2 from last round) 9th-level spells this round.)
3rd round: Cast a twinned Celerity as a swift action (Residual Magic repeats it for free) to get two additional standard actions. Repeat 2nd round and cast twenty (5x2 this round, plus 5x2 from last round) 9th-level spells this round.
Etc.

Irritated people cast twenty 9th-level spells each round, and it takes them 3 rounds to set up the loop.

For furious people:

(click to show/hide)

You could also find a way to learn Arcane Fusion. With Arcane Thesis, you'd get to prepare a twinned Arcane Fusion with no level adjustment ³. This time, everything happens in only two rounds. You could directly go to round 2 but it's not as spectacular.

1st round: Cast an 9th-level Silent Image and wait for next round.
2nd round: Cast a twinned Celerity as a swift action to get two additional standard actions. Use all three standard actions to cast three twinned Arcane Fusions, and cast six Celerities as well as six twinned Silent Images as a result. Use all six standard actions to cast six twinned Arcane Fusions, and cast twelve Celerities as well as twelve additional twinned Silent Images as a result. Continue until you run out of spell slots, and convert all of your standard actions into as many 9th-level spells. Don't forget to heighten all of your 1st-level Silent Images to the 9th level with Residual Magic for free (hence 1st round).

1. (3 Arcane Fusions required.) You get 12 Silent Images and 6 standard actions. (Possibly 24 Silent Images.)
2. (3+6 Arcane Fusions required.) You get 36 (12+24) Silent Images and 12 standard actions. (Possibly 60 Silent Images.)
3. (3+6+12 Arcane Fusions required.) You get 84 (12+24+48) Silent Images and 24 standard actions. (Possibly 132 Silent Images.)
4. (3+6+12+24 Arcane Fusions required.) You get 180 (12+24+48+96) Silent Images and 48 standard actions. (Possibly 276 Silent Images.)
Etc.

Remember that you can always prepare a 5th-level spell with a 6th-level (or higher) spell slot.

If this trick has already been mentioned somewhere else, my apologies. I never saw it.

¹ Sanctum Spell -1, Cooperative Spell -1, Invisible Spell -1, Repeat Spell +1, Twin Spell +2, Heighten Spell +X: total +X.
² Repeat Spell +1, Twin Spell +2: total +3.
³ Sanctum Spell -1, Cooperative Spell -1, Twin Spell +2: total +0.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Very tasty T.O. indeed.


Some (but not all) combos of Arcane Fusion
were spotted right out of the gate, back in '06.

It's a perpetual fave for Tier 1+ rocket tag.
Yours doesn't harm it's reputation at all.
 

[SorO_Lost]

Standing under the tree is quantified to mean by expending the Acorn as a Material Component you can count as being in Forested Terrain and Sanctum Spell does not reduce the Slot used to Prepare or Cast a Spell even if the Spell's Level is reduced by one after casting it. It's half-assed readings is what gave TO the munchkin-like bad taste & reputation rather then being called what it is: theoretical.

That being said you can still nest all kinds of good Twin/Repeat fun inside an Arcane Fusion without any need of it. There are plenty of Metamagic cost reducing effects to pull it off. Mindful through that Twinned Spells choose the exact same choices and while Repeat isn't as strongly worded the same location/area/target if within 30ft strongly suggests it should be treated as such. IE all those nested Twin/Repeat effects do not produce a range of options but rather they spam the same original choice over and over again until they are resolved. It's good for effects that can be stacked like damage or when your Save-or-Die needs your opponent to roll several dozen Natural 1s but it falls short of the expectation if you're thinking it can alter reality in 200 different ways.

I also happen to think a few other Classes are more powerful than either of those. Like Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer, Spelldancer, Illthid Savant, etc. Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Illusion is great and all and so is the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell, but the Savant gets both of those and still has a Class Feature option left over. And the break point of that Fusion chain isn't really Silent Image but free Metamagic & Arcane Fusion, something a Tainted Sorcerer does not by combining several Feats or a ten level dip into Incantatrix, but off a single level dip and a large Constitution score.

[Azrael]

SCM is a very VERY close second imo. In terms of versatility it probably ranks higher (depending on the time scale, as a dweomerkeeper, given enough time, has access to more spells/abilities than even a SCM, that is to say, dwes have access to ALL of them), but, and correct me if I'm wrong, dwes are the only class that can pump out free I've assassins without the assistance of items.

All those twinned fusions and celerities are nice and fancy (although without favor of the martyr is arguable that only one celerity would be usable before the daze kicks in) but they are utterly useless if you don't win initiative. All you need to win any Mage battle is a successful time stop, whoever gets that off first wins.

Either way I'd rather play my SCM that uses circle magic to get her CL up to 50 something and uses her miracles to make simulacrums of pretty much anything. Moreover, due to clever usages of echoing spell, miser with magic, rapid metamagic, and meta magic reduction she effectively has unlimited spell slots.

Free ice assassins = access to any spell or ability in the game.

Supernatural spell at 21 = any epic spell you can think of creating for a measly 9k gold. This IS pun/pun mark 2. Between the infinite stats, immunity to all spells, access to every SU ability (due to ability rip; non-epic, but epic can make them last indefinitely), the only thing this doesn't achieve is the arguably TO ability of pun pun's to make up abilities (which I think is total bs and only one insane reading of manipulate form). To date there has not been another method of achieving this level of power (yeah there's a few infinite stuff out there but nothing that gets everything in one character like pun pun)...so unless I'm missing something tainted scholar/spell dancer/illithid savant have nothing on this (I suppose illithid savants can gain supernatural spell from a dweomerkeeper but it still requires the class to exist and it's still the dweomerkeeper's ability...either way, it's like 30th level by the time you can do what you can do with a standard dwe at 21st; not worth the delay). 

[Pippin]

Standing under the tree is quantified to mean by expending the Acorn as a Material Component you can count as being in Forested Terrain

I'm sorry but I'm quite sure that it's not what the spell says: As long as you carry the acorn (and as long as the acorn is not stored in an extradimensional space like a bag of holding), you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy (and thus within an area of forested terrain).

 and Sanctum Spell does not reduce the Slot used to Prepare or Cast a Spell even if the Spell's Level is reduced by one after casting it. It's half-assed readings is what gave TO the munchkin-like bad taste & reputation rather then being called what it is: theoretical.

I never implied it was changing the slot used to prepare the spell though. Edit: Oh I think I know why you said that. For some reason I thought that Arcane Fusion was level 4, I corrected my post now.

That being said you can still nest all kinds of good Twin/Repeat fun inside an Arcane Fusion without any need of it. There are plenty of Metamagic cost reducing effects to pull it off. Mindful through that Twinned Spells choose the exact same choices and while Repeat isn't as strongly worded the same location/area/target if within 30ft strongly suggests it should be treated as such. IE all those nested Twin/Repeat effects do not produce a range of options but rather they spam the same original choice over and over again until they are resolved.

Don't you think that, if we were to apply metamagic after the Shadowcraft Mage's class feature, we wouldn't be able to use the Heighten Spell trick in the first place, as Silent Image would always be treated as a 1st-level spell? As much as I value your attempt to temper this madness, I'm not sure that your point is valid, unfortunately.

It's good for effects that can be stacked like damage or when your Save-or-Die needs your opponent to roll several dozen Natural 1s but it falls short of the expectation if you're thinking it can alter reality in 200 different ways.

I also happen to think a few other Classes are more powerful than either of those. Like Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer, Spelldancer, Illthid Savant, etc. Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Illusion is great and all and so is the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell, but the Savant gets both of those and still has a Class Feature option left over. And the break point of that Fusion chain isn't really Silent Image but free Metamagic & Arcane Fusion, something a Tainted Sorcerer does not by combining several Feats or a ten level dip into Incantatrix, but off a single level dip and a large Constitution score.

Well I don't know much about these, but I do know that Illithid Savant is both NPC-oriented and 3.0 material, so I do not think that it would be trivial to convince a random DM to allow it. As to it being more powerful than any other class, sure, you can't really compete with someone who can copy and learn everything other people can do.

although without favor of the martyr is arguable that only one celerity would be usable before the daze kicks in

I think it's safer to use the Mask of the Dauntless feat, because it outright says you're immune to daze. Spells like Favor of the Martyr say that you become immune to "effects that would cause you to be dazed", so arguably it could be ruled that Celerity doesn't affect you at all, since it's an "effect that would cause you to be dazed". Also these spells aren't available to Wizards (unless shenanigans), so I'm inclined to believe that taking Mask of the Dauntless is both the best and the simplest way to handle this issue!

[SorO_Lost]

SCM is a very VERY close second imo. In terms of versatility it probably ranks higher (depending on the time scale, as a dweomerkeeper, given enough time, has access to more spells/abilities than even a SCM, that is to say, dwes have access to ALL of them), but, and correct me if I'm wrong, dwes are the only class that can pump out free I've assassins without the assistance of items.

Kind of the catch there huh? I mean you can sacrifice orphans for free Scrolls of Ice Assassin or by RAW Wish loop for them but that's items. Fission/Body Outside Body is too shady, Lucid Dreaming is a Skill, Hellbreaker/Spelltheif/Ability Rip just steal, etc. If you narrow in just far enough to discount all the better options, of course one of the least useful ones appears to be the best.

I'm sorry but I'm quite sure that it's not what the spell says: As long as you carry the acorn (and as long as the acorn is not stored in an extradimensional space like a bag of holding), you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy (and thus within an area of forested terrain).

And Powerful Build says you're Large. Both have text after that quantifying what they mean but it didn't stop people from claiming Powerful Build makes you Large any more than it has stopped people from a rectal-cranial inversion when it comes to the Acorn.

And speaking off shoving a head so far up an ass it can lick a pyloric sphincter. Why is it always Acorn & Sanctum, it's like the demographic that thinks it should work so limited to parroting incorrect opinions that they cannot put any thought into it. If it actually worked I'd plant the damn tree in a fast time plane, Animate it, and ward the area with stuff like Magic Circle Against X & Desecrate (and so much more). Does anyone really think the proper response to that is supposed to be a pat on the back for what could probably be the lamest X-Box achievement ever? "Congratulations, I hope robots don't steal your reason for existence soon!". *sighs*

[Pippin]

@Soro, if you're interested in making other people change their mind and agree with you, I think you're doing it wrong. I do not think that you're right, but even if you are, the tone you are using is so resentful that most people would rather die than admit defeat. The only thing that you're going to achieve is make people quit the discussion. Nobody will ever concede that what you say is correct, I can assure you.

If you have a few dollars to waste, I would suggest that you read this book, written by Dale Carnegie 80 years ago. It might change your life, well, it changed mine.

[Azrael]

so I'm inclined to believe that taking Mask of the Dauntless is both the best and the simplest way to handle this issue!

Where is that feat located. I am unaware of it.

Kind of the catch there huh? I mean you can sacrifice orphans for free Scrolls of Ice Assassin or by RAW Wish loop for them but that's items. Fission/Body Outside Body is too shady, Lucid Dreaming is a Skill, Hellbreaker/Spelltheif/Ability Rip just steal, etc. If you narrow in just far enough to discount all the better options, of course one of the least useful ones appears to be the best.

It's not really a "catch". I find it unfair when judging a classes power to include items that everyone has access to or ones that would benefit any class equally. Its not about the classes and their individual abilities anymore, it just becomes about the items.

I would hardly call them better options. Spell thief gets you SU temporarily and you need to be high level which means you can't really cheese it with extended duration tricks. Ability Rip is typically something I also use in conjunction with this class since it's so easy, but again it's limited to spell slots per day. Ice assassins are permanent until killed, fucking persist a time stop and come out a second later with an army of great wyrm force dragons with numbers in the trillions...I fail to see why these other class options are better in any way.

Either way, once you hit 21 there's no denying the dweomerkeeper is king, no other class can get free epic spells like that, items or no.

[Pippin]

so I'm inclined to believe that taking Mask of the Dauntless is both the best and the simplest way to handle this issue!

Where is that feat located. I am unaware of it.

Here you go. I typo'ed, it is Mark of the Dauntless.