[3.5] Super Sneaky Rogue

[Eledan]

Hey All,

So I want to try my hand at building a guy who never is seen ever and is also sometimes able to do slightly more than that. Right now my thoughts are to go with a whisper gnome rogue that I will level into a shadowdancer at lvl 6. The point buy for the game is 28. The campaign is going to be really low magic and I don't know the exact level target but I would guess it'll go to around 15.  We will be starting at level 1.

I think what I'm looking for most is class or prestige class recommendations, feat recommendations, or something else that can make me the sneakiest thing around. I also am looking for a bit of advice on how to make a character like this useful to the party. Sneaking after all isn't real an end in and of itself so I'd like to be more useful than just saying "I can't be seen guys, but good luck!"

I believe all WOTC books will be allowed so no dragon mag, or D20 system stuff but pretty much everything else.

Here is my stats and feat choices so far for a level 1 whisper gnome. I'm definitely willing to change.

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Wis 12
Int 14
Cha 10

 Feats
Combat Reflexes


Thanks in advance for your help.

[Vladeshi]

Two levels of monk can get you the alternative class feature Invisible Fist.
It means that instead of getting evasion at second level of monk you gain the ability to turn invisible for one round as an immediate action(meaning you can activate it on other peoples turns, always nice), but it has a cooldown of three rounds.
Very useful, both for being really sneaky and because sneak attacks are now really easy to setup.

Also you will want the feat Darkstalker, this forces all of those creatures with blindsense and such to still make spot and listen checks to notice you instead of auto-detecting.

[phaedrusxy]

A Ring of Darkhidden can also give you permanent (greater) invisibility to Darkvision for a measly 3000 gp. Get Darkvision yourself and always try to attack/infiltrate at night, and this eliminates the need to even make hide checks much of the time.

As far as sneaky classes go, I'd suggest looking at the Swordsage. It gives you a lot of options, even if you only take it for a two level dip.

[faeryn]

Get your armor enchanted with Greater Shadow for +15 to hide... but its a heafty 33.75k... 3.75k will get you a +5 from normal Shadow armor though... Same goes for Silent Moves... same prices & bonuses to move silently...

2 levels of Shugenja will get you access to Know the Shadows which grants you a +20 bonus to hide when within 10ft of shadows... Get an item familiar and dump as much of your skill bonus as posssible into Hide...

Rogues Vest +2 hide, Move Silent, & Reflex Save, +1d6 SA... 29.6k

5 levels of Illusionist variant Wizard adds your Int (in adddition to Dex) to Hide via the Shadow Shaper class feature... plus being a 5th level illusionist gives you access to numerous spells to assist you in being sneaky...

...

Beyond that I'd highly recomment both Darkstalker & Ring of the Darkhidden... those 2 items alone can make all the difference...

[ketaro]

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis will literally turn anyone who puts an average amount of points into Hide the best Sneak ever and then you can do whatever you want for a build.

[SorO_Lost]

I'd consider the following possibilities, some of which have already appeared.

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Rogue ACFs
Chanlging Rogue replaces the trap-related stuff with a social bonuses, plus you get 10 Skill Points per AFC level instead of 8 and Changelings can readily hide as people. It's a great way to go if there will be less dungeoneering than town play. Penetrating Strike replaces Trap Sense and allows you to SA anything immune to Critical Hits at 1/2 dice which is a must if you're expecting to deal with Undead. For the most part through Martial Rogue is a trap so skip it.

Factotum
Generally speaking the Factotum is a Rogue, little less combat offensive for more utility. Since it's pretty dependent on Iaijitsu Strike to try to keep up with the Rogue's numbers it carries a must have element of stealth. The main change up is later on when items can be packed onto a character or days of downtime come rolling around the Factotum's offensive weakness is overshadowed by his Spells and extra Standard Actions.

Monk
The Monk Class's ACF make it a very powerful character type. Dark Moon Disciple is the pinnacle of stealth but a low level dip pockets Immediate Action Invisibility. Reuse and duration are limited but it works anywhere and on your opponent's turn. Out of combat you'll find it replacing all those penalties Hide has, like darting across a lit 20ft hallway to get closer to the guards creates a -25 penalty (-5 spd, -5/5ft distance) that Invisibility puts it as "you're hidden". Plus of course you'll pocket two bonus Feats which have a pretty diverse list thanks to like 20 different ACFs modifying the list.

Swordsage
Is a very nice Base Class if you're familiar with the Martial rules. If not, the short gist is as a dip you get +2d6 SA and can teleport around, later on you'll get some Wisdom-based save-or-suck/dies if that's your thing. It's unarmed variant stacks with the monk dip to determine your Unarmed Damage. A Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop later and your opponent's will love your Unarmed Strike to death.

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Darkstalker
Is generally seen as a must otherwise creatures with Blindsense/Sight and such will still auto-see you and a lot of higher level monsters sport those Special Qualities. Like wise you'll need to pick up a Ring of Darkhidden or else everyone with Darkvision can see you too and probably want to load up on some Magic Aura-casting items or any high level archmage-like NPC you come across will probably see you through their Permanent Arcane Sight detecting the auras on your magic items. High levels are kind of a pain to remain hidden no matter your Hide bonus.

Cravern
The single best SA related Feat out there, penalties to fear (hey you're an assassin, fighting people head on is not what you do!) but you get your ECL to SA damage. So at the 5th level it's +5 damage per hit, at the 10th it's a whopping +10 damage per hit, and yep it keeps going.

Ambush
There is a whole slew of Ambush related Feats, they all trade SA damage for various Conditions like Staggered (awesome), Confused (also awesome) or Deafened (less than useful but great for you can't hear me jokes). Disembowling and Maiming are probably the best since they deal Ability Damage but Persistent Attacker allows you to chain at least one SA per round no matter what, even if you can't Flank or they are not hidden or they are 400ft away, etc.

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So I know like you're expecting some kind of giant hide thing here but pretty much Whisper Gnome _ Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (or just take the dark template) is pretty much the gold standard. I also like Shadow-Walker out of FR, couple hide bonuses, some stealth-related SLAs, etc, all for +1 LA, but it's not needed.

As always through: Class Boosters.

Annnnd that's all I got for now. We have Handbooks that go into more detail

[zook1shoe]

Hairy Spiders are great hiders 

[linklord231]

My favorite stealth build I've ever played has been an Azurin Monk 7/Umbral Disciple 10/Assassin 3.  Monk 7 (using the Invisible Fist and Dark Moon Disciple alternate class features) is literally un-targetable (the same condition you get when under the effects of Invisibility) when not in full daylight, and you're never in full daylight thanks to Umbral Disciple's 3rd level ability. 

So you're pretty much permanently invisible after level 10, so then you just start looking for ways to increase your damage.  Such ways include:  Getting bigger (unarmed strike damage scales exponentially with size increases), adding Sneak Attack (such as by more levels of Umbral Disciple or Assassin), feats (Power Attack, Mantis Leap + charge multipliers, etc), or enchanting their attacks (monks actually have this easier than other classes, despite what you may have been told, because they can buy half a dozen different items to enchant their unarmed strike, and they all stack). 

[Eledan]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. My group is just coming off an absurdly high magic campaign(we regularly have 2 million gp in magic items each), and the new DM is planning on making this a much lower magic campaign. I will definitely look for the various stealth magic items but I doubt I'll be able to count on them.

Anyways, as far as builds I was looking into doing something like 6 Rogue/1 Shadowdancer/2 Cleric/10 Shadowspy. It sounded interesting and gave a couple of fun abilities.

Also, reading what you guys said I was very interested in looking into using the illusionist wizard variant. I would probably take wizard to a max of 5. For a build like 5 Rogue/5 Illusionist what would be any recommendations for prestige classes that would work well to maximize stealth?

[DavidWL]

Hey All,

So I want to try my hand at building a guy who never is seen ever and is also sometimes able to do slightly more than that. Right now my thoughts are to go with a whisper gnome rogue that I will level into a shadowdancer at lvl 6. The point buy for the game is 28. The campaign is going to be really low magic and I don't know the exact level target but I would guess it'll go to around 15.  We will be starting at level 1.

I think what I'm looking for most is class or prestige class recommendations, feat recommendations, or something else that can make me the sneakiest thing around. I also am looking for a bit of advice on how to make a character like this useful to the party. Sneaking after all isn't real an end in and of itself so I'd like to be more useful than just saying "I can't be seen guys, but good luck!"

I believe all WOTC books will be allowed so no dragon mag, or D20 system stuff but pretty much everything else.

Here is my stats and feat choices so far for a level 1 whisper gnome. I'm definitely willing to change.

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Wis 12
Int 14
Cha 10

 Feats
Combat Reflexes


Thanks in advance for your help.

I highly recommend shadow creature template.   +2 means you can buy it off,  and shadow blend is fantastic.   Lots of other perks too.

Best
David

[sambojin]

An often overlooked problem with stealth is movement speed. The answer?

The ever humble Expeditious Retreat spell. The +30' speed bumps up most normal characters to 60', letting you happily stealth along at 30' a round, never slowing down, always unseen.

Grab it however you want, but even just a simple Sorc or Wizard dip will do. Or grab it via the Cleric "Celerity" domain, which comes with a +10 non-typed movement bonus as standard, a big known spell list, and another domain for good measure. 13Wis isn't terribly hard to work into a build, and if it makes you a way faster stealth master, it's worth it.

It also bumps up your Tumble speed by the same margin, making you stabbier by way of flanking and SA (or just making it easier to run in from concealment).

Getting +CL is a great if you can. The Practiced Spellcaster feat (from Complete Divine pg82) is easy, eventually making that caster dip +4CL, turning Expeditious Retreat into a 5min duration spell. That's pretty much an entire encounter, even if it's fiddly and long and stealthy. The extra movement is handy for those invis rounds as well. Sure, you'll need 4 ranks of Spellcraft, but you won't be wanting too much for skill ranks in a stealth build anyway.


So yeah, grab a Cleric (Celerity/whatever) level, the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and have fun. A 40' move Whisper Gnome, with 70' encounter speed and 35' stealth/tumble (once you cast the spell) is awesome. You can jump pretty far too, if that's your fancy. And have a bit of spontaneous healing backup if you really need it (you'll probably never prepare anything other than Ex.Retreat, but you do have the whole cleric list available if you want some utility, or during downtime/RP sessions). Three encounters a day at 70' movement is pretty good for a dip, whatever else it gives you.

Grabbing the Magic domain alongside Celerity is pretty handy in low-magic campaigns. There's all kinds of useful wands and scrolls in these sorts of campaigns, especially for a stealthy person, and cutting down on Use Magic Item rolls is a godsend early on (when you're a bit low on skill ranks to spread around), and can still be useful later (you really don't want to roll a 1-2 at a vital moment for some things). Being able to use all the Cleric and Wizard trash is great, and you may never really get the chance to use anything else. So why not auto-suceed at it?

[faeryn]

An often overlooked problem with stealth is movement speed. The answer?

The ever humble Expeditious Retreat spell. The +30' speed bumps up most normal characters to 60', letting you happily stealth along at 30' a round, never slowing down, always unseen.

Grab it however you want, but even just a simple Sorc or Wizard dip will do. Or grab it via the Cleric "Celerity" domain, which comes with a +10 non-typed movement bonus as standard, a big known spell list, and another domain for good measure. 13Wis isn't terribly hard to work into a build, and if it makes you a way faster stealth master, it's worth it.

It also bumps up your Tumble speed by the same margin, making you stabbier by way of flanking and SA (or just making it easier to run in from concealment).

Getting +CL is a great if you can. The Practiced Spellcaster feat (from Complete Divine pg82) is easy, eventually making that caster dip +4CL, turning Expeditious Retreat into a 5min duration spell. That's pretty much an entire encounter, even if it's fiddly and long and stealthy. The extra movement is handy for those invis rounds as well. Sure, you'll need 4 ranks of Spellcraft, but you won't be wanting too much for skill ranks in a stealth build anyway.


So yeah, grab a Cleric (Celerity/whatever) level, the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and have fun. A 40' move Whisper Gnome, with 70' encounter speed and 35' stealth/tumble (once you cast the spell) is awesome. You can jump pretty far too, if that's your fancy. And have a bit of healing backup if you really need it (you'll probably never prepare anything other than Ex.Retreat, but you do have the whole cleric list available if you really have to, or during downtime/RP sessions).

Fate domain would be a good choice for second domain with such a build... gives you True Strike and Uncanny Dodge (improved if you already get it)

[sambojin]

True. Added an edit for the Magic domain as well. It's just quality-of-life stuff in that sort of campaign.

Uncanny Dodge is way better, and Imp UD is great early on (and throughout the whole campaign).


He can even level into Cleric a bit more later if he wants some more spell-casting utility. Switching Int and Wis on the stats above would give him plenty at Cleric(3), and +4CL from Practiced Spellcaster makes virtually anything useful (Cat's Grace for 7mins is a useful enough buff for stealth/stabby, but it's a big list to work from). Trickery or Lust domains are good if you're definitely sure you want a bit of Invisibility, but nothing else really stands out about them (Charm Person is nice from Lust for talky backup though). As good as a couple of Monk levels is for less invis, in my opinion anyway.

Retribution domain might also make for some hilarious FAIL->SUCCESS! assassination attempts when you really start stacking up SA dice. Insta-kill for some stuff. Sure, it's once a day, but damn is that a counter-stab......

Here's a handy full domain list. Cherry pick the one you like and call it a belief (unless you actually want to worship one of the 3 or so gods that do Celerity):
http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/cleric-domains#toc84

[Eledan]

Thanks for your help. I really like the idea of the Cleric domain powers. I was unfortunately told by the DM that whisper gnome is not what he is looking for in this campaign and that he'd rather stick to mostly core races so I'm going with halfling(strongheart variant). Mostly I think the whisper gnome is just a bit too well tuned for what he has in mind.

BTW, any chance you know where to find a list of the God's that grant the domains in the SC? I probably will just cherry pick my own, but I just want to know for future reference. Again, thanks for your help in this.

[phaedrusxy]

Thanks for your help. I really like the idea of the Cleric domain powers. I was unfortunately told by the DM that whisper gnome is not what he is looking for in this campaign and that he'd rather stick to mostly core races so I'm going with halfling(strongheart variant). Mostly I think the whisper gnome is just a bit too well tuned for what he has in mind.

BTW, any chance you know where to find a list of the God's that grant the domains in the SC? I probably will just cherry pick my own, but I just want to know for future reference. Again, thanks for your help in this.

There is an almost core gnome that has fantastic stealth mods in the Monster Manual 1. (Small size +4 racial mod = +8 always, with another +4 in forests)

[sambojin]

This was surpisingly hard to track down (ie, on the second page of Google search )

Since deities are spread across a butt-load of official WotC publications, therefore aren't really SRD material (they're fluff and rules, not just rules), the wiki doesn't master-list them.

But here's a pretty thorough listing after a brief perusal. Very thorough. I think it's all based on official material though. It's for PF, but it's from 3.5ed, just a copy-paste for porting purposes (with original domains left intact if they don't exist in PF). Just ignore the sub-domains. Or use them to fuel your argument for a deity "actually" having access to a similar 3.5ed domain for cherry-picking spells/powers.

A master-list of Greyhawk deities here:
(Greyhawk tends to be where most gods "came from" anyway)
 https://metzger.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/greyhawk-deities-master-list