Creating Dustform Creatures

[Stratovarius]

I'll shortly be playing Red Hand of Doom as a Walker in the Wastes (it's a homebrew class of mine), but the main area of concern here is that he's going to be focused on Dustform creatures (think Skeletons, but with a probably crappier template).

Mainly this means I'm on the hunt for creatures that have lots of HD, lots of natural attacks and armour, and are cheap(ish) to purchase. Special Attacks are completely useless - the template wipes them away. A creature with the attacks of a Megaraptor would be ideal, but it doesn't have a lot of HP - and Dustform doesn't give the bonus to HP like a normal construct.

Other items:
Character in question.
Homebrew in question.
Dustform template

[Keldar]

The standard Skeleton choices would make sense.  I know there was a list somewhere, but damned if I can find it.  Bears, Hydras, the usual suspects.  Mules and horses if you're just starting out and have to pay cash.  Dinosaurs are big bags of hps with no real special abilities.

[Stratovarius]

That's the problem - I couldn't find a guide to Animate Dead and all the best creatures of each level. Or I'd have been using it 

[Keldar]

I know one existed at one time.  It may have been in one of the dead Dread Necromancer handbooks. 

I'd take a look at Felldrakes and Landwryms (Draconomicon), they're melee brutes so should fair well with the template, particularly with full BAB.  Looking at the template, housecats could be hilariously effective at low level.  Especially if you're only limited by gp, because a herd of cats breathing a sandstorm could be awesome/wrong.  Mules are infamously effective then too for their 8gp cost.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Just dropping in to say that I love your homebrew. I think you want the necromantic oddities thread. I didn't check but it should be in the metacompendium since it was on BG (I've saved everything notable from there).

Since you're adding lots of homebrew source material yourself (not 1 exception, lots of stuff), you could just 'brew what you need.

[Garryl]

That's the problem - I couldn't find a guide to Animate Dead and all the best creatures of each level. Or I'd have been using it 

Collection of Necromatic Oddities, but it doesn't actually deal with which creatures to make into skeletons and zombies. It's more about the process of creating and controlling undead than the specific creatures to use.

K's Revised Necromancer Handbook has a bit more, but it only has a small section about raising skeletons and zombies. Short version: hydra zombies, tanky outsider zombies, hellwasp swarm skeletons (to make anything zombies), and anything with interesting movement modes. It also has good things to say about fire giant skeletons.

Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook has a short section evaluating various animals for conversion into skeletons and zombies, although it only goes up to 3 HD.

Yeah, nothing cohesive about skeletons and zombies by level, unfortunately. Just bits of advice scattered about.

[Stratovarius]

Just dropping in to say that I love your homebrew. I think you want the necromantic oddities thread. I didn't check but it should be in the metacompendium since it was on BG (I've saved everything notable from there).

Since you're adding lots of homebrew source material yourself (not 1 exception, lots of stuff), you could just 'brew what you need.

Hey, thanks

Yeah, I tried that one, but as Garryl subsequently pointed out, it's not really got a list of individual creatures.

I'm thinking giant corpses are the way to go, especially since I only want one or two (less bookkeeping). So, off to ask the DM if there's a dead giant lying around...

[Garryl]

You're kind of looking for different things in skeletons and zombies than with dustform creatures. Dustforms keep all of the special qualities of the base creature, and retain flight, too. They also get to keep their natural armor, unlike skeletons, and their actions, unlike zombies. Since class levels aren't removed, they keep all of their class BAB, saves, and class-based special qualities (not spellcasting, which seems to be a special attack in monster entries, but a lot of good things), too.

In short, they're a whole different beast, and a more powerful one, too.

[Stratovarius]

Ended up going with a Stone Giant (after agreement with the DM). Now just working through magic items for the character.

(click to show/hide)

Dustform Stone Giant

Size/Type: Large Construct
Hit Dice: 14d10 (77 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 26 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +16 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+24
Attack: Greatclub +19 melee (2d8+15) or slam +19 melee (1d8+10)
Full Attack: Greatclub +19/+14 melee (2d8+15) and slam +14 melee (1d8+5) or 2 slams +19 melee (1d8+10)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon (DC 17)
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft, construct traits, damage reduction 5/magic, dissolving
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +7
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 13, Con —, Int —, Wis 12, Cha 11
Skills: Climb +13, Hide +5*, Jump +13, Spot +12
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot
Environment: Deserts and wastelands
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 9
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Stone giants fight from a distance whenever possible, but if they can’t avoid melee, they use gigantic clubs chiseled out of stone. A favorite tactic of stone giants is to stand nearly motionless, blending in with the background, then move forward to throw rocks and surprise their foes.

Skills
*A stone giant gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks in rocky terrain.

Breath Weapon (Su)
As a standard action every 2d4 rounds, a dustform creature can spew out a 10-foot cone of dust and sand. The cone deals 1d6 points of damage for each 2 Hit Dice the creature possesses, and creatures within the area can make Reflex saves for half damage. The save DC is Charisma-based

Dissolving
Dustform creatures have one fatal weakness. A critical hit with a bludgeoning weapon forces the dustform creature to make a Will save to remain cohesive; otherwise it dissolves into lifeless dust again. The DC for the Will save is equal to 10 + damage dealt.

I'd never actually thought about grabbing a classed Dustform - partly it wouldn't really fit the character, but it honestly never occurred to me. Admittedly, the best bet would have been a dragon, but that's hardly surprising. Even without spellcasting, all those attacks + keeping flight and other qualities would be damned handy.

Dustform do also have the benefit of retaining feats, which can open up a whole range of options if the DM allows it.

[Garryl]

They're mindless, which means they lose all of their feats from normal levels/HD. They do keep bonus feats, though.

- Consider Lantern Archons. Lots and lots of Lantern Archons. Swarms of them, really. They keep everything that makes them special as dustform (flight, ranged natural touch attacks that ignore DR, tons of defenses), and they only eat 1 HD apiece from your control pool. Plus, you get to thumb your nose at those wussy necromancers who can't even animate a ball of sentient light.
- Glabreezu are also really good. Noticeably better than a Stone Giant, and at 2 HD lower. Certainly good enough to solo most every encounter your character is likely to face at 5th level (barring a stupidly rare crit + failed save from a bludgeoning weapon).
- For 1 more HD, try a Horned Devil. Another natural attack, another manufactured weapon attack (at -10), spiked chain proficiency for greater reach, flight, +13 AC, +8 attack bonus, a whole lot of defenses, and telepathy because why not. Regeneration gets lost due to having no Con score, unfortunately.

Basically, what I'm saying is look at outsiders (and there are probably better options, as I've only checked up to MM page 60). They're really, really good for their HD, which is what you care about most when dustforming things (value per HD).

[Stratovarius]

They're mindless, which means they lose all of their feats from normal levels/HD. They do keep bonus feats, though.

Interestingly enough, not according to the sample creature - it has the exact same feats as its living counterpart from 1st, 3rd, 6th and 9th HD. And although it's boilerplate, it does say that the abilities and stats, etc. don't change unless explicitly mentioned.

This is one of those areas where the template isn't explicit about everything - it also loses the augmented subtype it should have, like all construct templates do, but without saying it should.

- Consider Lantern Archons. Lots and lots of Lantern Archons. Swarms of them, really. They keep everything that makes them special as dustform (flight, ranged natural touch attacks that ignore DR, tons of defenses), and they only eat 1 HD apiece from your control pool. Plus, you get to thumb your nose at those wussy necromancers who can't even animate a ball of sentient light.
- Glabreezu are also really good. Noticeably better than a Stone Giant, and at 2 HD lower. Certainly good enough to solo most every encounter your character is likely to face at 5th level (barring a stupidly rare crit + failed save from a bludgeoning weapon).
- For 1 more HD, try a Horned Devil. Another natural attack, another manufactured weapon attack (at -10), spiked chain proficiency for greater reach, flight, +13 AC, +8 attack bonus, a whole lot of defenses, and telepathy because why not. Regeneration gets lost due to having no Con score, unfortunately.

Basically, what I'm saying is look at outsiders (and there are probably better options, as I've only checked up to MM page 60). They're really, really good for their HD, which is what you care about most when dustforming things (value per HD).

This is true, but I'm also running around with a CR 8-9 monster as a pet at 5th level, and I could technically afford a few more of them. So I'm not too worried (yet), about being behind in combat, especially since there's a few other tanks in the party.

[Garryl]

CR 10 (Dustform adds +2 CR). You're a level 5 character with a pet whose CR is twice your level. Wow. Something seems a little bit off about that.

Edit: If you're interested in rebalancing it, maybe changing the Animate Dustform spell to working off the CR of the dustform creature you're creating? Animate Dead is okay working on straight HD because so much of the base creature is lost turning it into a skeleton or a zombie that total HD is usually a good judge of how powerful the undead will be (in theory, anyways, as practice shows more variance). Dustforms keep a lot of the base creature, though, so HD total becomes a lot less meaningful.

If you change Animate Dustform to work on a Dustform creature with a CR of up to your caster level, that means you're animating base creatures with a CR equal to your level after accounting for both Dustform's +2 CR and defiling's usual +2 CL when not in Dark Sun.

[Stratovarius]

CR 10 (Dustform adds +2 CR). You're a level 5 character with a pet whose CR is twice your level. Wow. Something seems a little bit off about that.

Edit: If you're interested in rebalancing it, maybe changing the Animate Dustform spell to working off the CR of the dustform creature you're creating? Animate Dead is okay working on straight HD because so much of the base creature is lost turning it into a skeleton or a zombie that total HD is usually a good judge of how powerful the undead will be (in theory, anyways, as practice shows more variance). Dustforms keep a lot of the base creature, though, so HD total becomes a lot less meaningful.

If you change Animate Dustform to work on a Dustform creature with a CR of up to your caster level, that means you're animating base creatures with a CR equal to your level after accounting for both Dustform's +2 CR and defiling's usual +2 CL when not in Dark Sun.

CR before adding in the +2 from Dustform?

Because you're right that having a big ugly hitter twice my level is a bit silly. I was more thinking in terms of Skeleton/Zombie monsters, since a 14hd Skelly is CR 6, right in line with where I am. Any suggestions as to replacement creatures? Dire Wolf or Wolverine would both be decent. If I was being super cheap, Formian Warrior. Resistance to damn near everything combined with Dustform. Harpy is a great option for a breath weapon spammer.

[Garryl]

CR 10 (Dustform adds +2 CR). You're a level 5 character with a pet whose CR is twice your level. Wow. Something seems a little bit off about that.

Edit: If you're interested in rebalancing it, maybe changing the Animate Dustform spell to working off the CR of the dustform creature you're creating? Animate Dead is okay working on straight HD because so much of the base creature is lost turning it into a skeleton or a zombie that total HD is usually a good judge of how powerful the undead will be (in theory, anyways, as practice shows more variance). Dustforms keep a lot of the base creature, though, so HD total becomes a lot less meaningful.

If you change Animate Dustform to work on a Dustform creature with a CR of up to your caster level, that means you're animating base creatures with a CR equal to your level after accounting for both Dustform's +2 CR and defiling's usual +2 CL when not in Dark Sun.

CR before adding in the +2 from Dustform?

I was thinking CR after, otherwise you're getting pets that are normally supposed to be as powerful as you, then adding boosts on top. If you're a defiler in your optimal conditions (verdant land, +2 CL), then yeah, sure, maybe you can get that, but normally you should be animating creatures 2 CR below your own to turn them into a dustform creature with CR equal to your own (Ex: CL 6 spellcaster, animating a CR 4 Griffon, turning it into a CR 6 Dustform Griffon).

Speaking of defiling, you might wish to consider adjusting the defiling spellcasting bonuses when not in Dark Sun. DS's setting has a lot of different assumptions that lead to something pretty close to free power in less post-apocalyptic settings.

I think we're straying a bit off topic. Let's move this line of discussion into the threads devoted to the homebrew in question.

Because you're right that having a big ugly hitter twice my level is a bit silly. I was more thinking in terms of Skeleton/Zombie monsters, since a 14hd Skelly is CR 6, right in line with where I am. Any suggestions as to replacement creatures? Dire Wolf or Wolverine would both be decent. If I was being super cheap, Formian Warrior. Resistance to damn near everything combined with Dustform. Harpy is a great option for a breath weapon spammer.

I'd start by figuring out how powerful a creature is actually alright to be under your control. Once you know your options, then you can start looking at what each of them bring.