Min/Max challenge - Lowest level melee build to beat a Balor?

[bruceleeroy]

I was thinking about that thread on Enworld where Solo was baiting a poster who wanted to nerf casters down to monk level ( http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1557.0 ).

Solo was asking this guy to tell him how a caster could kill a Balor at level 12. Now, that's actually not very difficult at all for the kind of people we have on this board. But it got me thinking about a Hood build I made a year or so ago, trying to kill an Adult Red Dragon (Cr 15) at the lowest level possible, assuming neutral terrain and no preparation on the dragon's part. I'm pretty sure I got it down to Level 6, but I can't find that sheet. It probably could have gone lower, even.

Anyways, I was curious to see if anyone could furnish a pure melee build that could pop a Balor by say, level 9. Spells and powers etc available if they can be used via a magic item (although Shadowcraft cookies are kinda sketchy), standard WBL, 32 pt buy. etc etc. Assume the Balor has Unholy Aura going. For this challenge, a build needs to have at least 50% chance of winning initiative and hitting, with enough damage to 1 round the Balor ('cause you wouldn't get a second round).

Bonus points if you can do it by level 5. Obviously, no infinite loops or Pun-Pun.

[littha]

So yea... you need to beat its initiative (+11) and deal 290 damage (After DR 15) before it can act. You also need more than 100 hp to survive the resulting explosion. Dealing that much damage when you have to hit an AC of 39 should be next to impossible... you want to hit at least 80% of the time with your main attack to guarantee any degree of stability to this so you need a total attack bonus of +36.

Assuming you could spend 32k of your 34k on a +4 weapon and that you have a BaB of +9 that leaves you with +23 to make up with class levels and Str. Unless you manage to get 56 Str this will be hard.

[carnivore]

would a ranged attack Build be ok?

 

[Rebel7284]

Making a touch attack makes hitting easier.

[carnivore]

is the Balor required to full attack back each round, or would it use Advanced Tactics

 

[Mooncrow]

is the Balor required to full attack back each round, or would it use Advanced Tactics

 

I'm guessing that if the Balor gets to go, you're going to be hit with blasphemy - so, the best idea is to not let it have a turn^^

[littha]

Yep, blasphemy at Cl 20 is no save just die.

[Aliek]

Ugh, I'm not too strong on the to-hit department, to be honest... I'd say your best bet would be an item of wraithstrike/true strike, maybe even both.
I'm also pretty sure charging will be our main asset here. Feat intensive, but that can be worked with a couple of fighter/feat rogue levels. With flaws, that can easily go into fully-fledged dragoon by level 6 to 9, and if you can get turned into a centaur, that'd help. A lot, actually. Even better if it's a flying centaur.

Still, let's say level 9 you'd have 22 str before buffing, with 8 BAB(two levels of feat rogue, maybe two of psywar for the feats, not sure if that'd be okay?) shock trooper, leap attack and all, that would be +41 damage on average per hit. With a 1d8 weapon, averaging 45.5. We need either a 7x multiplier to crit damage for that to work, or to raise your str/dmg too. By raising our average damage by 6 we'd need just a 6x multiplier, so I believe that's the easier path. Adding a second hit could work, maybe. Pounce sould do the trick.

Well, that's gotta be challenging, but I'm sure it's possible. Just not really for a newcomer in op-fu as me.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

(hidden premise: Fighter dude can get to wherever the Balor is)
(as in: magic mart + divination + plane shift + teleport + "handwaving")

Single use True Strike, maybe with a Contingency
... only because it's affordable, not whether a Fighter "can" have it.
Triggers a small nova.


How about the high end version of this, could be:
the least magic Fighter-ish build that can handle all of what a Balor can do.
Or a Pit-fiend.

[JaronK]

It seems to me that a long ranged archer using stealth could just gun the Balor down to size without ever beng spotted.  With a spot of +38, he can't see enemies effectively beyond 400 feet or so.  With a Great Crossbow of Distance and a Gnomish Crossbow Sight, you can fire 360 feet with no penalty, or 480 feet with a -2 to hit.  Malphas would let you keep eyes on the Balor with a bird.  I feel like there's potential here.  Feat Rogue 2/Targeteer Variant Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2 with an Aptitude Great Crossbow that we can make overcome the DR as a start...?

JaronK

[Ithamar]

Yep, blasphemy at Cl 20 is no save just die.

Just be Evil and you'll be OK.  But that Power Word Stun won't be much fun if you're not equipped with lots of HP or some other means of stunning immunity.  Actually, a Talisman of Undying Fortitude would help against a lot of those SLA's.

Anthro-Baleen Whale allowed?  That might be a good start at least.

[cjosephs1s]

With 290 hp your going to need at least 2 attacks of 160 points of damage each.  And its not that hard to hit a Balor.  In a recent adventure our party encountered a level 35 CR whose AC was 52 (My toon was the best melee fighter in the bunch with 5 attacks starting at +44) and our easy solution to this was have the cleric cast brilliant weapon on us.  So just use a Brilliant weapon and ignore all that armor. 

Now just figure out how to 160 points of damage on an attack and you're golden. 

Its kinda funny this thread came up as our party is facing a Pit Fiend this weekend. 

[Nachofan99]

I don't think this is that hard, but it depends on how many shenanigans are allowed.  Let me ask before bothering.  Also, mounted Melee (or mounted Ranged for that matter) probably does this suuuuuper ez so at the top of the list...

Are mounts allowed or not? Don't know.
Is Uber Shuriken allowed?  I assume not.
Is Leadership allowed?  I assume not.
Is hiring an NPC for buffs beforehand allowed?  Is this on the same playing field as purchasing single use magic items? I don't know.
Are single use magic items subject to an increase in price or normal price? I don't know.
Fractional BaB/saves allowed or not? I don't know.
Weapon of Legacy/Ancestral Relic allowed or not? Don't know.
How much LA if any is allowed? Obviously the more LA used, the less the build "counts" but you have to start somewhere.  I usually use 1 or 0 anyways.  Don't know.

Need answers basically.

I think a non-full caster, non-gish can do this not that bad if you're allowed to optimized.  If you're hamstrung all to hell then no one can do it.

[Vasja]

@Ithamar: I'd take half-minotaur over the Anthro-whale - IIRC, the whale has 3d8 hit dice and not much better ability scores (at least in the physical environment).

@JaronK: would you be able to do enough damage to it in time? What if the balor starts teleporting around to find you?

@cjosephs1s: brilliant energy is a +4 enchant, so a +1 brilliant energy is a weapon that costs 50,000 gold - using the 1/3 item rule, we'd be at level 15 for that. At that point, it's likely we can beat it with a hood build and just pure damage (our to-hit will be high enough anyway).

Can't really imagine a melee doing it easily before the mid teens. In comparison to killing the Adult Red, the only real similarity here is HP (254 vs 290). The balor has significantly better AC (39/20/32 vs. 29/8/29), DR (15/cold iron and good vs. 5/magic), saves (26/23/23 vs. 18/13/17), and initiative (+11 vs. +0). The balor also has a boatload of resistances and has no cold weakness to possibly exploit. I think that 10 will be exceedingly hard - getting it down much below that? 

On the other hand - If we can cheese, maybe something like....

Half-Minotaur Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Psywar 2/ Feat Rogue 1/ Crusader 2
Feats: Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, ?

Not sure how to break the DR, but we can get a bunch of attacks (I think), then use White Raven Tactics on ourselves to do it all again next round.

[Gavinfoxx]

Weren't there some E6 parties that beat balors in some thread somewhere a while back?

[SorO_Lost]

Here is a preliminary build.

Dragon Born Water Half-Orc.
Base 18 Str, +4 racial. Base 18 Dex, +2 level.
Paladin 5 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Hit And Run Fighter 1 / Anything 1 (really just there for WBL/bab)
Feats (two flaws): Battle Jump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Improved Initiative.
Weapon: +1 Gloryborn Valorous Halberd of Vaulting with a Wandhandle loaded with a single Wand of Waithstrike (only costs 15gp).
Charging Smite Evil = +15
Power Attack: +28 (7 = 14 thf + leap).
Modifier: x5 (dive + battle jump + valorous + vaulting)
Attack: +15/+10 touch melee (5d10+255), 565 avg, 535 damage accounting for DR.

The trick is in Initiative really, +11 vs +11. But I'm already dealing way to much damage and could ditch Vaulting for more init boosts.

[Ithamar]

@Ithamar: I'd take half-minotaur over the Anthro-whale - IIRC, the whale has 3d8 hit dice and not much better ability scores (at least in the physical environment).

I tend to ignore Half-Minotaur actually, since it is just so... awful.

But you are correct that the whale comes with 3 HD, but no LA thankfully.  You get +3 BAB, +1 Fort, and +3 Ref & Will with the HD at least.  Overall the stat mods are pretty impressive, as well as some natural armor.

[Nachofan99]

Here is a preliminary build.

Dragon Born Water Half-Orc.
Base 18 Str, +4 racial. Base 18 Dex, +2 level.
Paladin 5 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Anything 1 (really just there for WBL/bab)
Feats (two flaws): Battle Jump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Improved Initiative.
Weapon: +1 Gloryborn Valorous Halberd of Vaulting with a Wandhandle loaded with a single Wand of Waithstrike (only costs 15gp).
Charging Smite Evil = +15
Power Attack: +28 (7 = 14 thf + leap).
Modifier: x5 (dive + battle jump + valorous + vaulting)
Attack: +15/+10 touch melee (5d10+255), 565 avg, 535 damage accounting for DR.

The trick is in Initiative really, +9 vs +11. But I'm already dealing way to much damage and could ditch Vaulting for more init boosts.

If you're taking 1 level of Fighter, did you factor in the +2 Initiative from Hit and Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark?  That would put you right at +11 Initiative with no significant changes at all.  Belt of Battle is an obvious include if it's affordable at this level; I can't recall.

[JaronK]

Oh right, this has to be melee.  No archers.

Well, the funny way would be to be an Evil Learnean Lumi Warblade 1.  Just keep attacking him... the Balor can't kill you.  Of course, it will take time to kill him... but just hacking away (perhaps with Mountain Hammer strikes to bypass DR) and he'll go down or run away eventually.  He can't hurt you at all, after all.  This is, of course, ECL 11. 

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

If you're taking 1 level of Fighter, did you factor in the +2 Initiative from Hit and Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark?  That would put you right at +11 Initiative with no significant changes at all.  Belt of Battle is an obvious include if it's affordable at this level; I can't recall.

I went ahead and threw in the Hit and Run comment there. But yes, Belt of Battle, and even an Eager (or is it warning?) Dagger in the off hand for another +7 to initiative.

Details details. It's put together well enough to say ECL 8 can do it so that's done. I was thinking of level 6 when I started posting it but Vaulting is like 20k and needed 8th level WBL to afford it. Then when I got to the number crunch I realized I didn't even need it. Maybe later I'll try for level 6 again.