Min/Max challenge - Lowest level melee build to beat a Balor?

[SorO_Lost]

A Dragonborn Warforged surrounded by a silence pre-buff is immune to blasphemy and stunning.  He can also fly and deal damage as such:

*cough* you're a few posts late.

Actually, I'm more inclined towards Divine Minion, which I think would also come in around level 6 (5 with buyoff).  Something like:

Divine Minion Human Warblade 5 + magic item of Enhance Wildshape +  Shambling Mound + Electrical damage + Insightful Strike

Isn't that less like a meleer and more like Druid sales pitch?

[caelic]

Well, that's sort of why I asked whether we were excluding things like Divine Minion.  Note that my build uses no Druid levels at all, and only one Druid spell.

[Amechra]

Paragon Hecatoncheires Petitioner, with the Celestial template applied; they only have 2 HD and are only CR 2, but have all the lovely immunities from being an Abomination, Regeneration and Fast Healing that make the Tarrasque cry, 20 attacks a round against Mr. Balor, and the sexiness of some REALLY hard to bypass DR (do you have any Good Epic Cold Iron weapons lying around? No? Then shut up.)

Also, it has such massive number on its stuff that it laughs at the silly Balor.

Did I mention that, thanks to one of the greatest rules ever, a Paladin may take any creature as a special mount that is of their CR-2 (CR-3 for flying creatures?).

So there, I now proclaim this as a ECL 5 beat-down (though it does require that you trick the balor onto the plane your mount is from... no worries, there should be one dying to attack the home plane of some DR 1 Good deity. Yes, I intended that pun.)

If you wait a couple levels, we get share spells, which would net the whole damn mess a form of Pounce (there's a Paladin spell for that, right?) Then we get the pleasure of charging Mr. Balor from 600' away, and then hitting him with 20 attacks, each dealing 2d6+47 damage, with a +104 to hit for each; I don't think we're going to miss.

That averages to around 1010 damage in a round, if you don't roll any ones or critical, and Death Throes are not of a damage type that bypasses the regeneration; in other words, the Balor never stood a chance.

But, yeah, contingent on getting the frickin' demon on the right plane.

[SorO_Lost]

Paragon Hecatoncheires Petitioner, with the Celestial template applied; they only have 2 HD and are only CR 2

The Abomination traits are a special quality which Petitioner would have removed. Technically speaking, Hecatoncheires is unplayable, Paragon is unplayable , and Petitioner lacks an LA/CR entry so it's either unplayable too.

Guesstimates on Paragon's LA may very, but it is CR +15 template. That's a 17, not a 2.

[Amechra]

Petitioner sets CR to +1. You apply Petitioner AFTER Paragon.

And I ain't playin' it; I'm using the rules for alternative paladin mounts in the DMG to have it as my Special Mount.

And are the Abomination Traits Supernatural or Spell-like, in any chance? Because if they aren't they would not be removed.

And I remember seeing in the update that the Hecatoncheires (and all other abominations) had the abomination subtype; am I imagining things?

[Mixster]

Wouldn't a very heavy orc falling on it work?

[SorO_Lost]

And I ain't playin' it; I'm using the rules for alternative paladin mounts in the DMG to have it as my Special Mount.

You know I thought you couldn't have intelligent mounts for some reason but I was too lazy to look it up. Now I did.

Your entire concept is based off abusing Diplomacy. Really, check those rules again. It's creative I suppose as invoking Pelor's goodwill and wrath is too ominous to really get an idea of, but it dips into the most terrible of cheese to shave off one level of the current placard. So in that regard, same trick but bigger scale: ECL 1 Half-Elf Factotum convinces Overdeity Ao to smite the Balor for him through prayer, it worked.

And I remember seeing in the update that the Hecatoncheires (and all other abominations) had the abomination subtype; am I imagining things?

The SRD incorporates Updates & Errata doesn't it? So no?

Wouldn't a very heavy orc falling on it work?

Like Battle Jump/Diving? I've got a level 6 up, think you can do it in less? Normally you can get more charge multipliers by being mounted, so maybe would be viable for a Kender on a Direbat to pull this off or something.

[bruceleeroy]

Wouldn't a very heavy orc falling on it work?

in the same sense that a dead baby falling from orbit could kill any human?



I gotta say, I'm impressed with the responses so far. The smite damage multiplying on a crit is something I always forget about, I never play Paladins. Although, you could save yourself a bit of cash using the Paladin ACF that allows you to switch out your special mount for a +1 sword (dragon mag, uhm...349?). Not that you need it.

The Hacatoncheires is a level of cheese I hadn't really expected. A nice loophole, I guess, but certainly not within the spirit of the challenge. 

So the lowest yet is 6? Can we get 5? I think the extra feat and iterative attack for pounce is kinda crucial, but maybe not.

[Nachofan99]

I think that in the quest of "how low can you go" with a straight up legit level 6 build vs a questionable and theoretical level 5 build, the straight up level 6 build is the right way to go.

There are a lot of shenanigans that can win this at level 5 or lower.  I propose, however, we only come up with "legit" level 5 builds *if* it can even be done.  On preliminary glance, the WBL is just so little, that it's going to be really hard to ensure the primary things:

1) Will you win initiative enough?
2) Will you hit enough?
3) Will you deal enough damage to kill the balor in 1 rd?
4) Can you survive the resulting explosion?*

*Note: Surviving the explosion is definitely allowable to "gaming the system" and bringing the Balor to -1 through -8 and running out before the explosion.  I think that's fair.

More and more at such low levels, it will be more of a wealth optimization challenge than anything else, imo.

[altpersona]

dont abominations come w/ divine rank?

is it really fair to use a god of any type for this?

if so, i like it!!


also, i think jaron's rocks are roughly 9ft^3 if they are solid granite. or about 1ft^3 of lead.

[Amechra]

Hmm, if we can get a feat at 4th level (that isn't restricted to Fighter bonus feats), I can kill Mr. Balor at ECL 4 (only problem is getting a couple hundred feat above the Balor, but I'll deal with that when I get there.)

[Rebel7284]

Worship Elder Evils?

[bruceleeroy]

By the way, SorO - how is your smite 15 damage? Like I said before, I don't use Paladins, so I think I'm missing something simple here, but shouldn't it be 5?

[tombombodil]

At first I was exited, and then I saw the "melee" clause . My favorite way to kill a Balor involved mass unseen servants and around 100 vials of holy water xD

[Amechra]

Alright, if anyone who already has a given feat can choose a replacement, I would say a Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 1 could swap out their bonus feat for Roofjumper.

Then, drop on the Balor from orbit; get some way to hit them with your attack, and youdeal 1d6 damage per 10' you fell.

Sure, it kills you, but the Balor is quite dead as well.

[Orwell]

Grumpinezer Scrooge

Primordial Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform  Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Half-Ogre Commoner 1

ECL 1(LA bought off)

Stats: STR 412, DEX 3, CON (???)-2, INT (???)+4, CHA 20
Feats: Skill Focus(Basketweaving), Power Attack, Brutal Throw
Equipment: Pajamas, a broom, flashlight

The balor made a massive mistake terrorizing this particular village. Grumpinezer was working on a basket, and the massive explosion made him ruin it. Storming outside, he sees the Balor terrorizing the village 200 feet away. He throws the ruined basket at the balor, and yells at him to fix it. He then walks back inside and proceeds to make another basket.

[SorO_Lost]

By the way, SorO - how is your smite 15 damage? Like I said before, I don't use Paladins, so I think I'm missing something simple here, but shouldn't it be 5?

Charging Smite is an Alternative Class Feature from the Player's Handbook II, you lose your mount but deal triple Smite damage on a charge. Also if you miss while using it the attack doesn't consume a use of Smite Evil.

[jojolagger]

Visi, Human Expert 2/Human Paragon 2
7 ranks in Balance and jump. Dodge, mobility, roof-walker and roof-jumper as feats.
18 STR, 18 Dex, nothing else matters.

Now, a warning eager shuriken (say 400 gp?) gets an extra +7 to INIT, along with the aggressive trait for a base of +13.
Contingent Dimension door, 2800 gold.
Contingent Wraithstrike, 600 gold.
Contingent Nerveskitter, 100 gold.
Contingent True Strike, 100 gold.
A single casting of fly will cost us 150 gp.
Let's also get a casting of Cat's grace before hand too. For this purpose, it will cost 140 gp (CL 7).

That's +20 to initiative, and dropping in on him from (3000 - (1d6 x60) ) feet, or a minimum of 2640 feet. Thanks to Roof-Jumper, that gives an extra 264d6 damage, which averages to 924.

Total gold spent, 4290 gp of 5400 gp. Total ECL 4.
Chance of winning Initiative, with a +9 lead on him, 86.3%, if the source I found is correct.
Chance of hitting, with +2 BAB, +4 STR, and +20 from true Strike, total +26, against AC 16, is 95% due to chance of auto-fail.
Chance of doing 305 damage with 1d8 (weapon) + 6 (two-hand STR) + 264d6, Incredibly high, assumed 99%, probably better.
Chance of surviving, thanks to Dimension door, is 100 %.
Total chance of success, 81.16515%.

Exp gained if successful, by extrapolating the tables in DMG as instructed, is 307200.
Total exp assuming minimum for level 4 at start, 313200 xp. Level afterwards, half-way between 25 and 26.
The 80,000 gp the DMG recommends for killing a blaor will also more than cover the just over 4000 spent.

[muktidata]

I feel like my favorite race might come in handy if anyone wants to run with it:

Dragonborn of Bahamut Incarnate Construct Warforged Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior LA +0  ....

Yeah, AFB or I'd throw the stats out. It'd probably give you enough HP to just tank the 100 damage. I think the CON bonus is somewhere around 18-20. I forget how Incarnate Construct is worded, but it might remove your Mineral Warrior ability which adds CON to hit once per day.

Anyway, that stuff plus Ranger with Favored Power Attack, charging stuff, don't need to assume you're 3,000 feet above or 40 miles away or use enhanced shurikens. Just hit the mother [shut your mouth!]!

[zook1shoe]

Obviously Tauric or Symbiotic are the way to go