Min/Max challenge - Lowest level melee build to beat a Balor?

[bruceleeroy]

Visi, Human Expert 2/Human Paragon 2
7 ranks in Balance and jump. Dodge, mobility, roof-walker and roof-jumper as feats.
18 STR, 18 Dex, nothing else matters.

Now, a warning eager shuriken (say 400 gp?) gets an extra +7 to INIT, along with the aggressive trait for a base of +13.
Contingent Dimension door, 2800 gold.
Contingent Wraithstrike, 600 gold.
Contingent Nerveskitter, 100 gold.
Contingent True Strike, 100 gold.
A single casting of fly will cost us 150 gp.
Let's also get a casting of Cat's grace before hand too. For this purpose, it will cost 140 gp (CL 7).

That's +20 to initiative, and dropping in on him from (3000 - (1d6 x60) ) feet, or a minimum of 2640 feet. Thanks to Roof-Jumper, that gives an extra 264d6 damage, which averages to 924.

Total gold spent, 4290 gp of 5400 gp. Total ECL 4.
Chance of winning Initiative, with a +9 lead on him, 86.3%, if the source I found is correct.
Chance of hitting, with +2 BAB, +4 STR, and +20 from true Strike, total +26, against AC 16, is 95% due to chance of auto-fail.
Chance of doing 305 damage with 1d8 (weapon) + 6 (two-hand STR) + 264d6, Incredibly high, assumed 99%, probably better.
Chance of surviving, thanks to Dimension door, is 100 %.
Total chance of success, 81.16515%.

Exp gained if successful, by extrapolating the tables in DMG as instructed, is 307200.
Total exp assuming minimum for level 4 at start, 313200 xp. Level afterwards, half-way between 25 and 26.
The 80,000 gp the DMG recommends for killing a blaor will also more than cover the just over 4000 spent.

Where does it say that Dimension Door gets rid of momentum?


And you only get a maximum of 1 level for an encounter, as covered earlier in this discussion.

Otherwise, seems to work.

[caelic]

I feel like my favorite race might come in handy if anyone wants to run with it:

Dragonborn of Bahamut Incarnate Construct Warforged Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior LA +0  ....

Ehrm...gotta ask: in what order are you applying these templates?  If you apply Incarnate Construct first, you're going to wind up with a LA of +2, since Incarnate Construct takes LA to a minimum of 0--and you can't apply Mineral Warrior before you apply Incarnate Construct, since a construct is an invalid target.  It seems to me that the minimum LA for this race is +1.

[muktidata]

I feel like my favorite race might come in handy if anyone wants to run with it:

Dragonborn of Bahamut Incarnate Construct Warforged Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior LA +0  ....

Ehrm...gotta ask: in what order are you applying these templates?  If you apply Incarnate Construct first, you're going to wind up with a LA of +2, since Incarnate Construct takes LA to a minimum of 0--and you can't apply Mineral Warrior before you apply Incarnate Construct, since a construct is an invalid target.  It seems to me that the minimum LA for this race is +1.

Is there a reference to where it's written that you can't have negative LA? I guess it makes sense, but how do some races have -LA if it doesn't exist. Like the race from Dragon Magazine (Zeph or something, Xeth?) which specifically has a -2LA.

[caelic]

Is there a reference to where it's written that you can't have negative LA? I guess it makes sense, but how do some races have -LA if it doesn't exist. Like the race from Dragon Magazine (Zeph or something, Xeth?) which specifically has a -2LA.

Incarnate Construct explicitly says that the minimum LA is +0.  It's right in the level adjustment entry of the template.

For most builds that exploit Incarnate Construct, this isn't a problem, because you can apply templates in the most beneficial order: they apply the LA +2 template first, and THEN apply Incarnate Construct, taking it down to +0.  The problem is, you're applying at least one template that you can't apply before Incarnate Construct.

[zook1shoe]

Is there a reference to where it's written that you can't have negative LA? I guess it makes sense, but how do some races have -LA if it doesn't exist. Like the race from Dragon Magazine (Zeph or something, Xeth?) which specifically has a -2LA.

Incarnate Construct explicitly says that the minimum LA is +0.  It's right in the level adjustment entry of the template.

For most builds that exploit Incarnate Construct, this isn't a problem, because you can apply templates in the most beneficial order: they apply the LA +2 template first, and THEN apply Incarnate Construct, taking it down to +0.  The problem is, you're applying at least one template that you can't apply before Incarnate Construct.

Exactly what I was going say

[SneeR]

Zook, I think your comment got eaten...

[zook1shoe]

Thanks, SneeR 

Amechra's post about the Paragon Hecatoncheries Petitioner Celestial.... Is there even an LA for the Petitioner template?

And Paragon has a +~13 LA

[Maat Mons]

Like the race from Dragon Magazine (Zeph or something, Xeth?) which specifically has a -2LA.

You're probably thinking of xvart (Dragon 339 – 64), which is mistakenly listed by Crystal Keep/Kindred Circle as LA -2, but is in fact LA +0.  It's been the source of a great deal of confusion and disappointment. 

[SorO_Lost]

Thanks, SneeR 

Amechra's post about the Paragon Hecatoncheries Petitioner Celestial.... Is there even an LA for the Petitioner template?

And Paragon has a +~13 LA

Nope, he was passing it off as the Paladin's Mount, which being intelligent falls under Diplomacy rules, hence the Bard/Pelor comment I posted before.

Source on Paragon's LA?

[Bozwevial]

Thanks, SneeR 

Amechra's post about the Paragon Hecatoncheries Petitioner Celestial.... Is there even an LA for the Petitioner template?

And Paragon has a +~13 LA

Nope, he was passing it off as the Paladin's Mount, which being intelligent falls under Diplomacy rules, hence the Bard/Pelor comment I posted before.

Source on Paragon's LA?

It has a +15 CR, which I don't believe is the same thing.

[zook1shoe]

Thanks, SneeR 

Amechra's post about the Paragon Hecatoncheries Petitioner Celestial.... Is there even an LA for the Petitioner template?

And Paragon has a +~13 LA

Nope, he was passing it off as the Paladin's Mount, which being intelligent falls under Diplomacy rules, hence the Bard/Pelor comment I posted before.

Source on Paragon's LA?

Didn't pay attention to that part

Epic Level Handbook comparing the LA of the Paragon Mind Flayer (table at the beginning of the monster chapter in ELH) vs a standard Min Flayer

[jojolagger]

Where does it say that Dimension Door gets rid of momentum?

There seems to be a general assumption from somewhere that teleportation effects don't keep momentum. If that's not the case, I have to pay a horrendous 50 gp to buy a feather fall talisman.

[bruceleeroy]

Fair enough.

Which makes Level 4 the lowest thus far.

[zook1shoe]

I could do 3rd

[Mooncrow]

Visi, Human Expert 2/Human Paragon 2
7 ranks in Balance and jump. Dodge, mobility, roof-walker and roof-jumper as feats.
18 STR, 18 Dex, nothing else matters.

Now, a warning eager shuriken (say 400 gp?) gets an extra +7 to INIT, along with the aggressive trait for a base of +13.
Contingent Dimension door, 2800 gold.
Contingent Wraithstrike, 600 gold.
Contingent Nerveskitter, 100 gold.
Contingent True Strike, 100 gold.
A single casting of fly will cost us 150 gp.
Let's also get a casting of Cat's grace before hand too. For this purpose, it will cost 140 gp (CL 7).

That's +20 to initiative, and dropping in on him from (3000 - (1d6 x60) ) feet, or a minimum of 2640 feet. Thanks to Roof-Jumper, that gives an extra 264d6 damage, which averages to 924.

Total gold spent, 4290 gp of 5400 gp. Total ECL 4.
Chance of winning Initiative, with a +9 lead on him, 86.3%, if the source I found is correct.
Chance of hitting, with +2 BAB, +4 STR, and +20 from true Strike, total +26, against AC 16, is 95% due to chance of auto-fail.
Chance of doing 305 damage with 1d8 (weapon) + 6 (two-hand STR) + 264d6, Incredibly high, assumed 99%, probably better.
Chance of surviving, thanks to Dimension door, is 100 %.
Total chance of success, 81.16515%.

Exp gained if successful, by extrapolating the tables in DMG as instructed, is 307200.
Total exp assuming minimum for level 4 at start, 313200 xp. Level afterwards, half-way between 25 and 26.
The 80,000 gp the DMG recommends for killing a blaor will also more than cover the just over 4000 spent.

Just to chime in a bit - the 86.3% number is correct, and you can tack on several more .9's on to that percent to do more than 305^^  The statistically significant range of that roll is really only between 817 and 1032 - the chance of a result outside that range is less than .01%, and continues to drop lower the closer to the edges you go. 

[zook1shoe]

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Grumpinezer Scrooge

Primordial Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform  Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Half-Ogre Commoner 1

ECL 1(LA bought off)

Stats: STR 412, DEX 3, CON (???)-2, INT (???)+4, CHA 20
Feats: Skill Focus(Basketweaving), Power Attack, Brutal Throw
Equipment: Pajamas, a broom, flashlight

The balor made a massive mistake terrorizing this particular village. Grumpinezer was working on a basket, and the massive explosion made him ruin it. Storming outside, he sees the Balor terrorizing the village 200 feet away. He throws the ruined basket at the balor, and yells at him to fix it. He then walks back inside and proceeds to make another basket.

Doesn't work... Those templates can be taken only once each

Edit: i can actually do it at ECL 2 and will post a build tomorrow

[Orwell]

Fair enough.

Which makes Level 4 the lowest thus far.

I got ECL two(Half-Ogre human(The template, not the race) works best, large for +1 LA)

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Grumpinezer Scrooge

Primordial Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform  Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Half-Ogre Commoner 1

ECL 1(LA bought off)

Stats: STR 412, DEX 3, CON (???)-2, INT (???)+4, CHA 20
Feats: Skill Focus(Basketweaving), Power Attack, Brutal Throw
Equipment: Pajamas, a broom, flashlight

The balor made a massive mistake terrorizing this particular village. Grumpinezer was working on a basket, and the massive explosion made him ruin it. Storming outside, he sees the Balor terrorizing the village 200 feet away. He throws the ruined basket at the balor, and yells at him to fix it. He then walks back inside and proceeds to make another basket.

Doesn't work... Those templates can be taken only once each

Edit: i can actually do it at ECL 2 and will post a build tomorrow

Why not? It is a valid target after you incarnate it, and is no longer a dustform creature, so it is a valid target.

[zook1shoe]

Yes it is still a Dustform creature... It just loses those abilities.
Only a few templates say that they can be added multiple times, for example, Evolved Undead.

[Orwell]

No. A dustform creature is a construct without an intelligence or constitution score. It can be applied to a humanoid/giant/whatever. The incarnate Construct, who, now that I think out it, I should have just made it a regular human, for ECL 1, is no longer a dustform.

[Nachofan99]

There are a lot of examples of "it doesn't say I can't..." all over the place regarding 3.X rules.  The general rule about stacking the same *anything* multiple times is, if it does not explicitly say you *can* stack it, you *cannot* stack it.  Evolved Undead template, as Zook pointed out, specifically comes out and says it can be stacked with itself multiple times.

I get the argument for "crazy RAW" but it's clearly against the intention of the game designers; not that those guys were paragons of game design or anything.