Min/Max challenge - Lowest level melee build to beat a Balor?

[SorO_Lost]

Meh.

It took him 6 pages to "call it", I'm not impressed.

Edit -- two posts short of 7 actually.

[jojolagger]

I'm at ~ 3-1/2 ECL

Using a dubious reading of the rules to let you ignore over 100 LA.

[bruceleeroy]

I'm at ~ 3-1/2 ECL

Using a dubious reading of the rules to let you ignore over 100 LA.

Yea, not relevant for this challenge. That has nothing to do with melee as a tactic and everything to do with TO template exploiting.

Basket Burner: You're an asshole and your input is unwelcome in this thread.

SorO: I prefer Hood as a slang for a charger than utilizes Battle Jump.

[zook1shoe]

Using a dubious reading of the rules to let you ignore over 100 LA.

How is it dubious?

It's clearly listed that the LA is added to the "torso", and is the normal part of the character and lower half doesn't matter.

How? List a single animal with an LA? What about vermin (excluding hairy spider)?

Therefore, I can add templates and/or advance the body of the template without having to pay the price of the body's templates or LA., as long as it still qualifies for the Tauric template.

What if I do the same thing as a Lycanthrope? The animal part doesn't transfer its "n/a" part of the animal?

Same with the vermin version of lycanthropy template

Yea, not relevant for this challenge. That has nothing to do with melee as a tactic and everything to do with TO template exploiting.

It's a melee build without spellcasting. How is it not allowed?

It gets close and claws the shit out of the balor, is that not a valid melee tactic?

[zook1shoe]

Basket Burner: You're an asshole and your input is unwelcome in this thread.

What for? What if he has ideas about a build?

Yeah he probably didn't say it right and it was easily misunderstood. But don't call him an asshole for a misunderstanding.

Edit: and yes, I accidentally did a double post

[Mooncrow]

Using a dubious reading of the rules to let you ignore over 100 LA.

How is it dubious?

It's clearly listed that the LA is added to the "torso", and is the normal part of the character and lower half doesn't matter.

How? List a single animal with an LA? What about vermin (excluding hairy spider)?

Therefore, I can add templates and/or advance the body of the template without having to pay the price of the body's templates or LA., as long as it still qualifies for the Tauric template.

What if I do the same thing as a Lycanthrope? The animal part doesn't transfer its "n/a" part of the animal?

Same with the vermin version of lycanthropy template

Yea, not relevant for this challenge. That has nothing to do with melee as a tactic and everything to do with TO template exploiting.

It's a melee build without spellcasting. How is it not allowed?

It gets close and claws the shit out of the balor, is that not a valid melee tactic?

The dubious part is the way you're applying an inherited template after acquired templates.  I don't see any of the listed exceptions (and those exceptions are clearly labeled as variant rules to begin with) in your build. 

[zook1shoe]

The dubious part is the way you're applying an inherited template after acquired templates.  I don't see any of the listed exceptions (and those exceptions are clearly labeled as variant rules to begin with) in your build.

That entry in the MM1, is completely up to interpretation.

When do you determine the start of a creature that is only a concept?

What about constructs? Do you have to wait for the golem to be fully built before adding certain templates? What about during the process?

Living creatures are much more controversial (evolution vs creation). When do you add templates if its divinely created? What if a creature evolves with both types of templates?

[Halinn]

When do you add templates if its divinely created?

And Pelor said, "Let there be fucked up tauric creatures, that my clerics may have something to burn."

[Mooncrow]

The dubious part is the way you're applying an inherited template after acquired templates.  I don't see any of the listed exceptions (and those exceptions are clearly labeled as variant rules to begin with) in your build.

That entry in the MM1, is completely up to interpretation.

When do you determine the start of a creature that is only a concept?

What about constructs? Do you have to wait for the golem to be fully built before adding certain templates? What about during the process?

Living creatures are much more controversial (evolution vs creation). When do you add templates if its divinely created? What if a creature evolves with both types of templates?

Adding More Than One Template
In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. For example, a vampire cannot become a lich and vice versa.

How is that open to interpretation?  You apply templates one at a time, and inherited templates get applied first.  Since your build absolutely depends on an inherited template being applied last, it doesn't work. 

As for the rest of your arguments, if there's a rules exception that you want to cite, go ahead. 

[Maat Mons]

If not.... It'll be Tauric beaver with ~1-1/4hd and +2 la and nearly everything else is the same

Where is beaver statted up?  I have trouble believing it meets the medium or large requirement of the tauric template.  The lowest-hit die valid base creature I can find is medium monstrous centepede, which has 1 hit die. 

The level adjustment for tauric is “base humanoid +3,” not +2. 

So, ignoring the template-stacking issues, you're looking at ECL 5. 

[Basket Burner]

Meh.

It took him 6 pages to "call it", I'm not impressed.

Edit -- two posts short of 7 actually.

Yawn.

Basket Burner: You're an asshole and your input is unwelcome in this thread.

What for? What if he has ideas about a build?

Yeah he probably didn't say it right and it was easily misunderstood. But don't call him an asshole for a misunderstanding.

Edit: and yes, I accidentally did a double post

Easy. Because these boards are about us (most of the posters) vs them (a handful of posters). I go against the groupthink, so they rage at me, because I found the obvious answer to something with arbitrary restrictions anyways, such as builds that have to win init and one round it and don't win init all that often being called successful at defeating the open field Balor. Meanwhile I find an easy way of preventing the Balor from doing much of anything, and still capable of killing it and what do you know, more nerdrage. Awfully resistant to anti meta tactics aren't you?

But hey, he doesn't want valid and helpful feedback, he won't get it. That is fine by me.

[spacemonkey555]

But hey, he doesn't want valid and helpful feedback, he won't get it. That is fine by me.

Wow, what a special snowflake. Post that you know the special sekrits to op-fu, people call you on your attention seeking crap, and you use that as an excuse to not reveal your supar sekrit win button. Noone has ever seen this behavior before in the history of the internet. 
Probably something horrible like diplomancing anyways.

[Amechra]

You've never heard of min/maxing for the shear fun of it?

Alright people... can we figure out a way to get it to ECL 1?

[Rebel7284]

If you get your charisma high enough, a sudden stunning weapon + a bunch of turns + re-rolls may do it.

edit:
I'll have to double check everything when I am not rushed but:

Phrenic, Unseelie Fey (The one that gives penalty to saves, Summer?) Human

Factotum 1/X1 need ECL 4 for WBL for sudden stunning weapon.
Feats:
1. The one that lets you focus as a move action
H. The one that lets you expend you focus to make the next attack a touch attack.
F. Arcane Disciple[Luck]
F. Check luck feats in complete scoundrel.

Note: using sudden stunning as in DMG2, those are cheaper than the MIC one.

edit2:
Hmr, DR and death throes are still a problem.

[Kajhera]

A balor's means of affecting an incorporeal undead are magic weapons and death throes.

Just to muse on the earlier suggestion of ghost, which isn't generally ecl 1.

[jojolagger]

But hey, he doesn't want valid and helpful feedback, he won't get it. That is fine by me.

Wow, what a special snowflake. Post that you know the special sekrits to op-fu, people call you on your attention seeking crap, and you use that as an excuse to not reveal your supar sekrit win button. Noone has ever seen this behavior before in the history of the internet. 
Probably something horrible like diplomancing anyways.

Do not(FFT) waste your time on him. He doesn't want to play nice, let him be smug over in his little corner.

Sadly, I'm not seeing a way to cut the ECL down further. AFAIK, 4 is the lowest.

[zook1shoe]

Adding More Than One Template
In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. For example, a vampire cannot become a lich and vice versa.

How is that open to interpretation?  You apply templates one at a time, and inherited templates get applied first.  Since your build absolutely depends on an inherited template being applied last, it doesn't work. 

As for the rest of your arguments, if there's a rules exception that you want to cite, go ahead.

i guess i only saw the part at the beginning of the section, sorry.

so that reduces my creature by ~30 templates and say, reduces attacks by 1/3... that still means it has like 120 natural attacks. and outrageous stats.

still killing it easily

Where is beaver statted up?

that was obviously supposed to be a joke

The level adjustment for tauric is “base humanoid +3,” not +2. 

Savage Species (2/1/2003) came out after MM2 (9/1/2002), therefore is the valid book, despite the MM2 having an errata.

the errata updates the contents of the MM2, but does not change the date at which the book was published

so it looks like Tauric 1hd+1hd = 4 ECL

whereas using inflicted Lycanthropy this can decrease to 1hd+1/4hd for an ELC 3-1/4

So, ignoring the template-stacking issues, you're looking at ECL 5.

if they are valid, why ignore them. that was not in the original post.

You've never heard of min/maxing for the shear fun of it?

agreed

[Childe]

If you really need to boost initiative, be from the Kosaten Shiro dojo (Way of the Samurai 27, WotC-licensed). It works like a 4e background would essentially (only one dojo benefit, but it's free as it's a benefit from where you trained). It gives you +5 initiative (first round of combat only).

[lans]

@ BB- Necropolitan Puglist Fighter 2?

[Mixster]

@ BB- Necropolitan Puglist Fighter 2?

You have to be a ghost or implosion will kill you