Author Topic: Is Warlock broken?  (Read 27047 times)

Offline Maelphaxerazz

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2016, 09:22:59 PM »
Do you see why I brought up Hold Person as an example of how SorO's claim that "any debate about the rules is always ignoring the rules" is basically nonsense?
It THAT is what it is about, then I agree with you. I do not believe that any debate about the rules is always ignoring the rules, because I believe rules are inherently debatable. The problem, in my view, is when people dismiss the FAQ out of hand, even though it is usually right.

As for Nausea: I'm surprised that this one is your favourite, since it is plenty obvious that Freedom of Movement does not cure nausea. That would be silly.


Sure, entirely possible. But the fact remains that the person answering our questions doesn't necessarily know what they're talking about. And, beyond that trust issue, mistakes like this one raise a lot of hard questions. Why would the FAQ have rule altering power over the normal books, and not have it over the errata? And, the other way, if the FAQ doesn't have the ability to alter the errata, then why would it have the power to alter the books? To what extent can it alter the books? If the books are unambiguous about something stupid, like monks lacking proficiency with their unarmed strikes, and the FAQ says otherwise (which it might, but I don't recall), then do we call that a "good ruling" because it squares with intent, or do we ignore that ruling like we would for the arcane thesis entry? Where do we draw the line between a good ruling and one that should be ignored, and how do we systematize those differences in a way that squares with actually being rules?

Mistakes make things weird, in other words. They force us to consider that other things might be mistakes, and they blur the line between rule change and weird inaccuracy. As Chemus noted, with errata, you know where you stand. The errata always wins, because it has ultimate correction power. With the FAQ, anything could mean anything. And that's a lot of why someone wouldn't want the FAQ as a source of rules at all. Because it creates some really complicated problems that lack RAW solutions.
I agree with a lot of that. The thing is, I do not expect the rules to always have a RAW answer, because they don't. You will not be free of RAW failures if you get rid of the FAQ, and in fact you'll have more, because the FAQ solves more problems than it causes.

Problems are only really complicated because the CO community started treating D&D rules like a programming language. That's probably why WotC felt the need for the fluff/crunch separation and strict formatting in 4e: people's rules-lawyering was getting out of hand. But 3.5 remains the same, and if you expect everything to have a universally-agreed-upon RAW answer, too bad: you will not get it. My answer to all those hard questions is this: you will have to think and implement what is best for the game. That is something you should be doing with any rule, whether FAQ or errata or printed book, because any rule could be in error. The final answer will be the one that makes the most sense, which may or may not be the one in the book or errata or FAQ. Consider all the sources, including the FAQ, and make a rational decision. It does not have to be the same as at every table, because it not Rules As Played Everywhere.

Offline Kaelik

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2016, 09:40:26 PM »
As for Nausea: I'm surprised that this one is your favourite, since it is plenty obvious that Freedom of Movement does not cure nausea. That would be silly.

And it was so obvious that if you never read the FAQ you would never for even a moment think that it cures Nausea. But then if you read the FAQ, the FAQ says "While stun taking away actions totally counts as 'magic that usually impedes movement' because taking away actions impedes movement, it's Mental magic that impedes movement so FoM doesn't stop it. But hey, if there were any physical magical that impeded movement by taking away actions, FoM should totally negate that!" so yeah, then suddenly, if you follow the (absolutely god fucking awful) FAQ FoM advice, Nausea is cured by FoM.

Almost like spouting things out of your ass without an editing process produces bad results.

Offline eggynack

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2016, 11:38:06 PM »
I agree with a lot of that. The thing is, I do not expect the rules to always have a RAW answer, because they don't. You will not be free of RAW failures if you get rid of the FAQ, and in fact you'll have more, because the FAQ solves more problems than it causes.

Problems are only really complicated because the CO community started treating D&D rules like a programming language. That's probably why WotC felt the need for the fluff/crunch separation and strict formatting in 4e: people's rules-lawyering was getting out of hand. But 3.5 remains the same, and if you expect everything to have a universally-agreed-upon RAW answer, too bad: you will not get it. My answer to all those hard questions is this: you will have to think and implement what is best for the game. That is something you should be doing with any rule, whether FAQ or errata or printed book, because any rule could be in error. The final answer will be the one that makes the most sense, which may or may not be the one in the book or errata or FAQ. Consider all the sources, including the FAQ, and make a rational decision. It does not have to be the same as at every table, because it not Rules As Played Everywhere.
I'm not really sure how this situation is all that helped by the FAQ, is the thing. If we're not going by strict rules, then of course the warlock gets their blast shapes. Why would blast shapes even be if not for the ability to use them? If we are going by strict rules, then this stuff starts to really matter. Beyond that, I think that the rules as they actually exist are important. There's some personal input, but you need a starting point, and determining where that is is about the RAW. If everything's just down to personal opinion, then what's even the point of the rule set? And, yes, there exist unresolvable ambiguities in the text, but I don't think there's anything on this level. By that I mean that there's nothing that attacks the core nature of what rules are, and how sources should operate in the first place.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2016, 12:04:55 AM »
The Sage is making recommendations throughout the FAQ;
I disagree. The way this is placed, he is making a recommendation in this instance. If his words at the end of the Freedom of ...

Uh, the Sage uses the phrase 'the Sage recommends' 21 times, 'strongly recommends' 4 times, 'sage suggests', and 'strongly suggests' once each, throughout the FAQ. So though you're correct that the entire FAQ isn't recommendations, per se, there are quite a few, throughout it. I also said "these [recommendations] are reasonable rulings, interpretations of the rules, and generally good house-rules". Even not referring to them as recommendations, rulings do not supersede the rules they come from. In order to have a ruling, you must follow the rules.

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And no, he makes no error in saying Hold Person does not allow any actions. The quote from the description of Paralysis says "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions." The quote from Hold Person says "It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech." While I think Hold Person should just be paralysis, that isn't what the spell description actually says.

Actually, as I already said, hold person gives a short description of paralysis, so the caster doesn't have to look it up. Look at how the two descriptions parallel each other, but that the spell's description is less verbose. There are quite a few spells, such as blink and ethereal jaunt that do this reiteration of rules. It's a convenience. Usually, when a rule is being overridden, the text will say something akin to 'unlike normal exhaustion or fatigue, the effect ends as soon as the spell's duration expires,' for example.

Hold person is just paralysis.

As I initially said: FAQ is useful in finding answers to questions regarding D&D rules, in fact that's the description given at the beginning of the FAQ, but says nothing anywhere about taking precedence over the rules as written.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 02:25:39 AM by Chemus »
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2016, 01:58:20 AM »
Question:  Is there anyone here who considers the FAQ to be authoritative, but does not allow Dragon Magazine material in their games?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2016, 12:40:23 AM »
Lots of posts to read through, I think I can call back to Eggy's post from the last post through.

So it looks like Kaelik hacked Link's account to post yet another nearly pointless strawman but I can still flip it into something useful. Normally you could simply point out that the things we're discussing, the FAQ, Errata, RC, PHB, etc, are all published by WotC which is why they are called 1st Party. A person's choice on allowing 2nd Party, in other words officially licensed D&D material that's not published by WotC, has no bearing on the current discussion.

However, in the off chance you allow Dragon Magazine you fall into another one of those fallacies. See Dragon Magainze as a Sage Column that's several steps south of even being as official as the Ask Sage/Wizard Articles on WotC which are still not even cool enough to make it to the rule page. And towards the end of 3.5's era, the same guy ran all of them. Logically if you accept Dragon Magazine, you need to accept the FAQ.

But the official status of the FAQ isn't really up to debate at this point. For me it was a given and I continued to be here for Eggy's understanding. And while his last reply to me still ran off down the road ahead of it's self he claimed a rule's source gives it's self the right to be a rule's source. It's circulatory logic for sure but equally stated, the game rules page has the authority to proclaim it's the page listing game rules because it's the game rule page that says it's listing the game rules. The next part isn't whether or not the FAQ is part of the rules as that has been conceded without using WotC's intent or examples from it's campaigns (through thanks for the assist Maelphaxerazz). But what gives the FAQ's rules a priority over another rule, which I'm sure even Eggy can guess what page I'll point out, and untangling the illogical statements made to exclude it.

Like claiming some of it is suggestions and thus should be ignored, which will require us to enter the DMG. Home of the suggestions of how to play D&D. But it's late, I mostly wanted to play half catch up.

Offline eggynack

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2016, 01:11:03 AM »
And while his last reply to me still ran off down the road ahead of it's self he claimed a rule's source gives it's self the right to be a rule's source. It's circulatory logic for sure.
Somewhat so, yes. Thinking further on it, I suppose that what we can take from what a source says about itself is where it'd fall in the hierarchy. So, we can say that the FAQ is definitely a Wizard's product, because it is one, and from there that source tells us what it's supposed to be, whether a source of rules, ruling, rule altering, or anything else one could want, and it can do that explicitly, as is the case for the RC, or implicitly, as I think is the case for many rule books. That the FAQ doesn't really tell us much about it being a source for rules, either explicitly or implicitly, is something of a problem.
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But equally stated, the game rules page has the authority to proclaim it's the page listing game rules because it's the game rule page that says it's listing the game rules.
Yes, as I've already agreed. The FAQ isn't on a game rule page though. It's on a game rule FAQ page, which is as murky as the FAQ itself for determining its nature. Either way, this part of the argument and the one above, fittingly enough, likely run secondary to the part about primacy.
 
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But what gives the FAQ's rules a priority over another rule, which I'm sure even Eggy can guess what page I'll point out, and untangling the illogical statements made to exclude it.
I would assume that you're referring to your old RC quote. Still don't know why that would allow priority for the FAQ, which I suppose puts us back where we started.

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Like claiming some of it is suggestions and thus should be ignored, which will require us to enter the DMG. Home of the suggestions of how to play D&D. But it's late, I mostly wanted to play half catch up.
The primacy argument certainly doesn't depend on the things being suggestions. It's more about the fact that the FAQ is commenting on sources, rather than acting as a source independent of itself. Even a core rule book can lack authority when it comes to commenting on the information in other books.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2016, 02:10:11 AM »
I think there's more similarities between the FAQ and Dragon Magazine than SorO is willing to admit.  For example, both are endorsed by WotC as "100% Official".  Heck, a large number of the FAQ answers are directly copy-pasted from a Sage Advice article in Dragon (if not all; I haven't checked every single FAQ entry).

What makes the FAQ "100% Official" if Dragon Magazine is not 100% Official?  The content is in many cases authored by WotC authors, the copyright belongs to WotC, and it bears the official D&D logo.   

In other news, I found this quote that claims to be from an archive of the Wizards of the Coast forums from November of 2005.  The username of the poster is WotC_Andy.
Quote from: http://secretsofthearchmages.net/Threads/WOTC/2008/DND%20-%20General/530698.html
That's correct--the bulk of the current 3.5 FAQ was created by Skip, while my additions are via the last year-plus of Sage Advice.

The FAQ is not errata, in that it does not represent changes to published material. It endeavors to shed light on unfamiliar or unusual situations that arise within the game, relying on primary source material and (occasionally) interpretations of the intent of not-as-clear-as-could-be rules.

There are times when Sage Advice questions reveal the need for errata. In those cases, rather than tackling the issue in Sage Advice, the question is forwarded to the folks in R&D who handle errata publication.
That user makes no further posts in the thread.

Now, it's possible that this "archive" was entirely fabricated.  I have no way of knowing, and searching for that quote only pulls up that one site.  But, if this is true, it seems pretty definitive.  The FAQ is not intended as errata, and makes no changes to the rules - only clarifications.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2016, 02:15:47 AM »
I think there's more similarities between the FAQ and Dragon Magazine than SorO is willing to admit.
And towards the end of 3.5's era, the same guy ran all of them.
In other news, I found this quote that claims to be from an archive of the Wizards of the Coast forums from November of 2005.  The username of the poster is WotC_Andy.
WotC had an official announcement over Andy Collins, whom  also worked on the PHB, DMG, MotP, PlH, A&E, MIC, CAd, CD, CW, CM, DM, Draco, MMIII, FF, and FR:MoF, being the new host that appeared on their website.
And finally, a quick word about one of the more recent, and now most trafficked features of the website: Ask Wizards. Initially, we wanted to steer any and all rules questions toward Customer Service, and use Ask Wizards to cover more esoteric questions. However, a quick look into the Ask Wizards inbox reveals 5000+ questions, the vast majority of which are in fact rules related. As such, we’ll be revamping this section of the website in the very near future. Most days of the week, this section will become Sage Advice Online, with Andy Collins (author of Dragon Magazine’s analog Sage Advice column) fielding your more pressing rules queries. Odd days (mainly weekends), will see Ask Wizards fill this slot, fielding the broader philosophical and trivia-minded questions about the game. We hope this better meets your expectations for this website.
But yes your "archive" cannot be validated and doesn't really mean much in the long run but that's a story for another night. I can't even believe I'm up this late.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 02:38:43 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline linklord231

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2016, 02:58:08 AM »
I think there's more similarities between the FAQ and Dragon Magazine than SorO is willing to admit.
And towards the end of 3.5's era, the same guy ran all of them.
In other news, I found this quote that claims to be from an archive of the Wizards of the Coast forums from November of 2005.  The username of the poster is WotC_Andy.
WotC had an official announcement over Andy Collins, whom  also worked on the PHB, DMG, MotP, PlH, A&E, MIC, CAd, CD, CW, CM, DM, Draco, MMIII, FF, and FR:MoF, being the new host that appeared on their website.

Yay?  I know that.  That's why I brought it up. 

My point in bringing it up was to highlight the incongruity of declaring the FAQ as 100% Official and To Be Used In All Relelvant Cases but not doing the same for Dragon Magazine, despite the similarities.  It also lends the forum post I quoted some authority (if it's a real post), because it comes from someone who actually wrote for the FAQ and many other products. 
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Offline Chemus

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2016, 04:05:49 AM »
Lending credence to that archive, it contains posts and homebrew that I made from that period. I've found some posts from , say SinfireTitan that he agreed were accurate as well. admg reads roughly the same too. I trust that it's accurate.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2016, 12:39:25 PM »
I would assume that you're referring to your old RC quote. Still don't know why that would allow priority for the FAQ, which I suppose puts us back where we started.
Yeah but now you're caught up. No more FAQ isn't this or that.

What grants the FAQ power it multi-sided. The first part obvious is it is a rule's source and thus trumps any none-rule's source comment and ironically this is the hardest thing to accept. You need to understand what RAW really is and it's not about the rules. In it's most common usage it's more accurately called what someone uses when they have lost an argument in order to claim they were not wrong.

Communication is an act of one guy encoding his thoughts into a medium for the other guy to decode. And sometimes I don't articulate my thoughts into words properly and sometimes the listener simply does not use the words that I used in the same manner. People with some very devious intentions can, and will, exploit the flaw in human language for their personal benefit. As a troll's tool it can be used to engage in a pointless language debate that has you discussing the subjective meanings of a word under other different uses in an effort to provoke anger and frustration out of everyone participating in an effort to push them away. However, those same people need to also realize getting people to dispense talking to you is not a win and it's just another fallacy to assume so. ;)

For the most part, words them selves are meaningless and only the message of those words should be debated whenever possible. And the more times a message is resaid, rehashed, repeated, reexplained, and detailed the clearer the message becomes. And so this is where the typical perpetrator will attempt to downplay or omit any other source that discusses the material in question. And this type of argument, what to ignore, is a sign of danger that you're not walking into a thread that wants to debate the meaning of the rules and how to use them, but you're walking into a debate whose sole purpose is to prove them right.

And it's not strictly about the FAQ either. Like the other month I had to deal with a guy that refused a Feat having two prerequisite entries in two different books. Because his arrangement was based on interpreting a phase a certain way that disagreed with the rest of the rule base he could not, and would not, accept another supplement's revision of the prerequisite. And it's not that the revision changed the message, at least as far as me and the rule's interpreted things, but the revision simply did not use the same exact words that were being disputed as ambiguous and to be taken as they claimed it should be.

The FAQ simply gets brought up in these debates simply through statistics. It was designed to cast clearer messages in areas that had little to no text to support any side and it simply has no borders. In one entry it might be discussing the rules found in Complete Mage and in another it might be talking about the second Player's Handbook. As a formerly regularly updated material it casts a large net in areas where peoples more often than not had to come up with their own answers. This places it more often in the limelight than any other material under the most common method of unenlightened debates with some very poorly motivated people.

Anyway, massive block of text aside. To give you a much shorter example. Buried in Complete Warrior was an entry that under a common interpretation breaks the rule base causing several Prestigious Classes to no longer work. Rather than questioning their validity of their interpretation they concluded someone else must be at fault, called it an error, and walked away from it. Later on a rules source, and I think we all know which one I'm talking about, would add an entry that under their interpretation could be seen as incorrect. But again, rather than revisiting their theory of interpretation that had problems before under the new guidance they claimed the FAQ was wrong. Nothing in Complete Warrior's text says the FAQ's ruling is wrong, even it's usage past tense and examples exclude the concept of PrCs invalidating them selves. An interpretation like that does not break the rule base and does not call things nonfunctional. It even fully agrees with the new insight provided by the FAQ. In other words, the problem wasn't the rule's text. The problem was the poster's understanding of the rule's text and under his misconceptions and willful ignorance he called something else wrong instead of his conclusion.

And this is also one of the largest reasons the FAQ cannot be dubbed "wrong". Because it typically sticks to grey areas what it disagrees with isn't printed rules but your opinion on the matter. It offers a new restatement that helps quantifies the message in the form of a direct answer. Anyone can just as easily use the troll tactics of calling a few words ambiguous over someone else's strong feelings of what they think it should be and prove any given FAQ entry correct.

And another facet of it's power is simply drawn from fallacies are not a means to prove anything. Attacking the FAQ's credibility does not mean it's entry is wrong. Even if you found a entry you disagreed with and could not wrap your head around why the FAQ ruled the way it did, your disagreeance does not give you the ability to dismiss the FAQ any in area, even in the area you disagree with. A great example is this thread, the FAQ's entry was entirely correct. No ands, no ifs, and no buts about it. But Link with his personal baggage wanted to shot gun his fallacy over everyone's face because to him repeated defamation is a perfectly acceptable method to argue. And he thinks this because you in turn tolerate and humor it. The battle being waged here is less about the FAQ to me and more of the shitstain that is the acceptance to prompt ad hominian attacks as validate forms of debating.

And to wrap up a third facet of the FAQ's power to rule as it were comes from the Rules Compendium which recasts the idea of Primary/Secondary in a way for you to clearly designate which is or isn't the priority rules on the matter. Under the Order of Rule's Application the entry of say Trilemma may be the authority of how Trilemma works and the entry of Flunge may be the authority of how Flunge works. But when Eloquacious said Trilemma and Flunge work together then Eloquacious is the authority of how Trilemma/Flunge work together. The FAQ by nature of having the most specific rules on a given subject can only be trumped by exceptions.

And seriously this posts are getting longer and probably less coherent has proof reading them becomes harder and harder. So, break time again I guess.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 01:51:26 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2016, 12:41:00 PM »
Yay?  I know that.  That's why I brought it up.
It's just surprising. You're typically all about the FAQ hate.

Offline eggynack

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2016, 02:01:15 PM »
Yeah but now you're caught up. No more FAQ isn't this or that.
Fair enough. I'm not perfectly certain that the FAQ does have a spot in the game's hierarchy, but it seems like a solid enough premise to work off of.

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What grants the FAQ power it multi-sided. The first part obvious is it is a rule's source and thus trumps any none-rule's source comment and ironically this is the hardest thing to accept. You need to understand what RAW really is and it's not about the rules. In it's most common usage it's more accurately called what someone uses when they have lost an argument in order to claim they were not wrong.
I see where you're coming from, but I think that what RAW is transcends the way it's sometimes used. Yes, someone may hide behind the notion of RAW when a rules situation actually turns against them or is ambiguous, but there are still things we know for certain. There are discrepancies we can resolve through logic alone, and, of course, baseline facts that aren't contradicted in the first place. Some aspects of the game are inevitably ambiguous, either because there are two contradictory sources and no way to discriminate between the two meaningfully, or because there's simply no answer. A classic example of this from my analysis of the game is the way that ability damage is treated when you wild shape. The damage might stick around, or the fact that you're changing ability scores could get rid of the damage. It's unclear, and, to my knowledge, has no resolution. In some cases we can extrapolate from surrounding text what was intended, but in some we can't, and either way we're not working with strict RAW. But that doesn't mean that RAW just tosses up its hands. Instead, RAW says, "This situation is ambiguous within the rules," and it's really as simple as that.

To put it simply, RAW really is about the rules, and that RAW is the context in which I'm considering the FAQ. If someone misuses or abuses the term, that's on them.

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For the most part, words them selves are meaningless and only the message of those words should be debated whenever possible. And the more times a message is resaid, rehashed, repeated, reexplained, and detailed the clearer the message becomes. And so this is where the typical perpetrator will attempt to downplay or omit any other source that discusses the material in question. And this type of argument, what to ignore, is a sign of danger that you're not walking into a thread that wants to debate the meaning of the rules and how to use them, but you're walking into a debate whose sole purpose is to prove them right.
The problem with RAI, which seems to be the perspective you're advocating, is that it's really frequently impossible to discern intent. From my experience, it gets abused far more often than RAW does. In this sense, RAW is really the best basis we have to go on, and I see threads based around it as predicated on that fact rather than on some underlying incentives. At least to some extent. We all inevitably bring bias into an argument, but, again, that bias would exist in RAI threads too. And, if you're in a RAI arena, then what seems to be one guy's opinion of what the writers probably meant, an opinion that can be proved is completely wrong in some cases, doesn't seem that valuable to me. We could probably start up our own RAI thread, and it wouldn't be meaningfully less valuable.
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And it's not strictly about the FAQ either. Like the other month I had to deal with a guy that refused a Feat having two prerequisite entries in two different books. Because his arrangement was based on interpreting a phase a certain way that disagreed with the rest of the rule base he could not, and would not, accept another supplement's revision of the prerequisite. And it's not that the revision changed the message, at least as far as me and the rule's interpreted things, but the revision simply did not use the same exact words that were being disputed as ambiguous and to be taken as they claimed it should be.
Can't rightly say whether that person was rule-crazy or not without knowing the specifics of the argument, but I can say that I've dealt with situations like that, here and elsewhere. It's not a perfect system by any means, but I think it's the best we got.

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Anyway, massive block of text aside. To give you a much shorter example. Buried in Complete Warrior was an entry that under a common interpretation breaks the rule base causing several Prestigious Classes to no longer work. Rather than questioning their validity of their interpretation they concluded someone else must be at fault, called it an error, and walked away from it. Later on a rules source, and I think we all know which one I'm talking about, would add an entry that under their interpretation could be seen as incorrect. But again, rather than revisiting their theory of interpretation that had problems before under the new guidance they claimed the FAQ was wrong. Nothing in Complete Warrior's text says the FAQ's ruling is wrong, even it's usage past tense and examples exclude the concept of PrCs invalidating them selves. An interpretation like that does not break the rule base and does not call things nonfunctional. It even fully agrees with the new insight provided by the FAQ. In other words, the problem wasn't the rule's text. The problem was the poster's understanding of the rule's text and under his misconceptions and willful ignorance he called something else wrong instead of his conclusion.
I don't know about the FAQ element of that argument. It may have come up, but, as was the case here, FAQ arguments tend to split off into their own thing. From what I can recall of these arguments, the core of the RAW claim against the CW's text wasn't based on simple inconsistency with existing prestige classes, but rather some discrepancy with the DMG's treatment of prestige classes, which would lead to the CW text lacking sway outside of that book. It's not perfect, because the DMG text doesn't strictly imply that the CW text is incorrect, but the text does define PrC prerequisites in a way different from how the CW defines prerequisites. Specifically, the define a prerequisite as something you need to meet at some specific level.
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And this is also one of the largest reasons the FAQ cannot be dub "wrong". Because it typically sticks to grey areas what it disagrees with isn't printed rules but your opinion on the matter. It offers a new restatement that helps quantifies the message in the form of a direct answer. Anyone can just as easily use the troll tactics of calling a few words ambiguous over someone else's strong feelings of what they think it should be and prove any given FAQ entry correct.
Sure, if it's just restating truth, then it's obviously fine, and if it lurks in an area with strict ambiguity, then it has some sway, but my problem is that these "grey areas" aren't necessarily that grey. If there can be determined some truth about the rules of the game, strictly from those rules themselves, and the FAQ says anything different from that truth, then we're not just sticking to grey areas anymore. If, in the above case, the only reason to disagree with CW was that it'd screw stuff up, and then the FAQ came along with a ruling not inconsistent with that rule that didn't cause problems, then that'd be fine, but that there already exists a rule about this could make it not fine, depending on the FAQ entry. Which all gets me back to my main claim, because if you can't support strict ambiguity in a particular case, then we can't define a particular FAQ entry as sticking to grey areas.
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And another facet of it's power is simply drawn from fallacies are not a means to prove anything. Attacking the FAQ's credibility does not mean it's entry is wrong. Even if you found a entry you disagreed with and could not wrap your head around why the FAQ ruled the way it did, your disagreeance does not give you the ability to dismiss the FAQ any in other area. A great example is this thread, the FAQ entire was entirely correct. No ands, no ifs, and no buts about it. But Link with his personal baggage wanted to shot gun his fallacy over everyone's face because to him repeated defamation is a perfectly acceptable method to argue. And he thinks this because you in turn tolerate and humor it. The battle being waged here is less about the FAQ to me and more of the shitstain that is your acceptance to prompt ad hominian attacks as validate forms of debating.
The FAQ may well be right or wrong in any particular situation, and, in fact, looking through the entries, it is frequently correct about the rules. However, we are not talking about the FAQ as an expert on rules, but about the FAQ as a source of rules. In the latter role, credibility is important, because it speaks to authority. The PHB can't really be wrong about what the rules are, except where it contradicts itself. That the FAQ can be wrong about what the rules are strongly limits its capacity as a rule source.
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And to wrap up a third facet of the FAQ's power to rule as it were comes from the Rules Compendium which recasts the idea of Primary/Secondary in a way for you to clearly designate which is or isn't the priority rules on the matter. Under the Order of Rule's Application the entry of say Trilemma may be the authority of how Trilemma works and the entry of Flunge may be the authority of how Flunge works. But when Eloquacious said Trilemma and Flunge work together then Eloquacious is the authority of how Trilemma/Flunge work together.
But I still don't see how the RC is recasting the idea of primary/secondary. It opens up by talking about its own primacy, which speaks to nothing beyond its own nature as a source, and then it starts talking about general/specific rules, which are completely separate and have far more to do with how a book acts upon itself. Nothing there seems to indicate in any way the FAQ's position in the hierarchy. It certainly wouldn't be in opposition to the FAQ being in the top slot, as it indicates that there are theoretically sources with this sort of sweeping power, but it doesn't indicate that the FAQ has that sweeping power.

Honestly, I get the feeling at this point that we actually have close to the same general opinion on the FAQ. Where the FAQ is in obvious accordance with the rules, it's obviously right, and where there are grey areas, it can inform our decision making. However, where we disagree is that you think there are far more grey areas than I do. In a world with rolling waves of grey consuming the game with its ambiguity, the FAQ makes much more sense as a meaningful rules source than it does in a world where things are mostly pretty clear with the occasional lapse into blurriness.

Offline Kaelik

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2016, 04:14:39 PM »
Boy it sure is fun to read internet blowhards claim that one philosophical method of text interpretation is the only possible one and that other versions don't exist.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2016, 04:45:22 PM »

... http://secretsofthearchmages.net ...

Now, it's possible that this "archive" was entirely fabricated.  I have no way of knowing, and searching for that quote only pulls up that one site ...

Yeah, I've heard of that.  There's supposedly a few others.

a) ... Chances are, Wayback hasn't crawled the entire site quite yet.
b) ... but the standard Teacher's tactic to catch plagiarism, is to search for a 6 word combo, yielding nigh infinite possible, too many to be coincidence.
c) ... repeat step a
d) ... so this below looks good

Lending credence to that archive, it contains posts and homebrew that I made from that period. I've found some posts from , say SinfireTitan that he agreed were accurate as well. admg reads roughly the same too. I trust that it's accurate.

NO !!
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If you think it's the same, the Tail has a bridge in Brooklyn that goes to Bifrost, to sell you.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #76 on: September 20, 2016, 06:41:20 PM »
In some cases we can extrapolate from surrounding text what was intended, but in some we can't, and either way we're not working with strict RAW.
Pretty much. Like saying Ability Damage remains is a very good answer and I'd agree to be the correct one but it really isn't "RAW". Rather we're trying to build a working theory over how it should work using all known precedents and examples and testing it.

The problem with RAI, which seems to be the perspective you're advocating, is that it's really frequently impossible to discern intent.
Actually it's pretty easy to discern intent form the rule rules, what is hard is agreeing with someone over them and what is impossible is when one approach the subject seeking RAI and the other only wants to use their own. The latter happens more often than anything else.

Sure, if it's just restating truth, then it's obviously fine, and if it lurks in an area with strict ambiguity, then it has some sway, but my problem is that these "grey areas" aren't necessarily that grey.
If you understand the rule base well enough many of the FAQ's entries become redundant or sometimes the Sage's explanation isn't as sound as the one you'd like to use but...

What seems none gray to you became an entry because several people asked. What seems like a bad rational to you (and me) is the same thought process that wrote entire rule books. As previously brought up, WotC did a very good thing in hiring out their Sage hat to run their official game rule FAQ and they hired people that wrote large amounts of 3.5's rule base.

That the FAQ can be wrong about what the rules are strongly limits its capacity as a rule source.
Not really, every single one of the books have an error on them that make them wrong about something. One true error, an error that doesn't fall back to your interpretation, or an error that would later pave the way for a rule's update, may not even be possible depending on who is interpreting the matter.

Like at some point the Sage appears to be mistaken that Prone should impose a penalty to Grapple Checks, a concept that appears no where else in the rules outside of adjudication in respect to real life, however the FAQ can, often does, and must inherently expand the rule base every time it makes a ruling. So the question becomes, should Prone impose a penalty on Grapple Checks? Officially, the rule base encourages it and an Author of several books, including the PHB, has said it does in a WotC controlled & published medium. An anonymous opinion on the forum that opposes it does not have the authority to call it wrong no matter how much they disagree.

But I still don't see how the RC is recasting the idea of primary/secondary.
Really? That one is pretty easy.

The Errata introduced the concept that if two rule sources disagree with each other then the primary source is correct but what makes a text primary? In the earliest Errata's they note PHB for Spells, MM for monsters, and so on but they were the only rule books at the time. Within six months the Errata files lost the book notation as added rule updates were intended to replace the Core Rules leaving nothing but the individual spell description takes precedence when the short description for guidance for determining what was to be designated as primary. Exceptions above and beyond the first two categorizes would be noted when relevant.

About six months into 3.5 new Errata documents starting using a revised statement. The biggest change it now it called it's self the general policy for handling contradictions. It continued to use Primary/Secondary and used the example of actual rules text against tables & character entries. Again it noted exceptions would still continue to trump.

Then the Rules Compendium was published as the definitive update and it introduce the rule known as the Order of Rules Application for working out contradictions. Like before, designating the primary source was simply a matter of finding the most specific entry such as text over table or full entry over short description. Calling it "Primary & Secondary, with Exceptions" got rebranded into self-describing terms such as general and specific. Now asking what is "primary", or most specific rule, would be asked in plain speak rather than game terms by because the new way to ask the question was what is "specific"?

Primary/Secondary is simply the precursor to the Order of Rules. Same idea, just a better presentation and carries it's self with the respect it should have.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 06:45:03 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline eggynack

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2016, 11:48:21 PM »
Pretty much. Like saying Ability Damage remains is a very good answer and I'd agree to be the correct one but it really isn't "RAW". Rather we're trying to build a working theory over how it should work using all known precedents and examples and testing it.
But, at the same time, my contention is that such situations are unusual. We deal with them reasonably frequently, because the unresolvable is inevitably going to come up more than things that are just resolved, but true ambiguity isn't a frequent occurrence.
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Actually it's pretty easy to discern intent form the rule rules, what is hard is agreeing with someone over them and what is impossible is when one approach the subject seeking RAI and the other only wants to use their own. The latter happens more often than anything else.
Well, it's easy to build your own model, but I don't know if I'd call that discerning. The minds of the game's creators can never be perfectly known to us, and so, for all we know, they intended monks to take a huge penalty with their main weapon. What authority have I to claim that the rules as they are aren't the rules as were intended?
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If you understand the rule base well enough many of the FAQ's entries become redundant or sometimes the Sage's explanation isn't as sound as the one you'd like to use but...

What seems none gray to you became an entry because several people asked. What seems like a bad rational to you (and me) is the same thought process that wrote entire rule books. As previously brought up, WotC did a very good thing in hiring out their Sage hat to run their official game rule FAQ and they hired people that wrote large amounts of 3.5's rule base.
I don't disagree that it can be valuable. The rules in this game are complicated. But that doesn't mean much to its nature as a rule source.
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Not really, every single one of the books have an error on them that make them wrong about something. One true error, an error that doesn't fall back to your interpretation, or an error that would later pave the way for a rule's update, may not even be possible depending on who is interpreting the matter.
Aside from the directly contradictory stuff, those things weren't errors in the same sense. Like, we can say that having wild shape operate off of polymorph rules was an error that was later corrected, but those were still the rules. Such an error in the FAQ is not still a rule in the same way.

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Like at some point the Sage appears to be mistaken that Prone should impose a penalty to Grapple Checks, a concept that appears no where else in the rules outside of adjudication in respect to real life, however the FAQ can, often does, and must inherently expand the rule base every time it makes a ruling. So the question becomes, should Prone impose a penalty on Grapple Checks? Officially, the rule base encourages it and an Author of several books, including the PHB, has said it does in a WotC controlled & published medium. An anonymous opinion on the forum that opposes it does not have the authority to call it wrong no matter how much they disagree.
An anonymous opinion, no. The rules of the game, sure. It's not the random poster that's deciding that the rules work this way. It's that same poster pointing to the fact that the rules work this way. They have ultimate authority in stating the rules of the game, insofar as it maintains perfect parity with the rules of the game, and they have zero authority otherwise.

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Then the Rules Compendium was published as the definitive update and it introduce the rule known as the Order of Rules Application for working out contradictions. Like before, designating the primary source was simply a matter of finding the most specific entry such as text over table or full entry over short description. Calling it "Primary & Secondary, with Exceptions" got rebranded into self-describing terms such as general and specific. Now asking what is "primary", or most specific rule, would be asked in plain speak rather than game terms by because the new way to ask the question was what is "specific"?

Primary/Secondary is simply the precursor to the Order of Rules. Same idea, just a better presentation and carries it's self with the respect it should have.
I think you're conflating two entirely different rules for determining how the game operates. It's not like the general/specific/exception rules were suddenly called forth into being with the rules compendium, and that changed primary/secondary. The general/specific rules were always there, because that's just how games work. It's why casting fly allows you to fly in spite of the fact that you ordinarily lack that movement mode. This isn't a re-branding of anything. It's merely making explicit what was always implicit, the fundamental rule underlying most of game design. There is nothing about the order of rules applications that overwrites primary/secondary, nor should it. Because having only the order and not primacy makes it even more difficult to determine the rules. After all, returning to old examples, the FAQ text about arcane thesis isn't any more specific or exceptionish than the errata rules for arcane thesis, and the same applies to that DMG/complete warrior fight. These rules are all on the same level, meaning the weight of the source is the only method of resolution.

Primary/secondary isn't a simple precursor to this rule ordering, one made obsolete with the new release. They're completely different rules that handle completely different things, and I don't know of anything in the text anywhere that indicates otherwise. There can be multiple rules handling rule conflicts. These are two of them, and they coexist just fine.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2016, 03:35:18 PM »
The minds of the game's creators can never be perfectly known to us, and so, for all we know, they intended monks to take a huge penalty with their main weapon
Well Skip did work on the PHB so that may not be far off but it's probably sufficient to say the Core Rules struggled with type casting Unarmed Strike to a point where it became it's own 3rd entry in the RC.

I think you're conflating two entirely different rules for determining how the game operates. It's not like the general/specific/exception rules were suddenly called forth into being with the rules compendium, and that changed primary/secondary. The general/specific rules were always there, because that's just how games work.
Not at all and yes, the intent always been there but outside of the RC it was never a stated rule to handle things like that, only implied or called a policy in the Errata. It's sort of like how it's implied the FAQ is the ultimate authority on the rules through RAI but you'll argue that the FAQ has no authority and even went so far as to argue it never called it's self a rule so it doesn't count. But now you'll incur a problem of double standards because you want to start arguing that policy or RAI concept gleam from how the books handle them selves should be treated as a rule and it cannot be replaced, ever, because your bias blinds you from treating them equally.

There is nothing about the order of rules applications that overwrites primary/secondary, nor should it.
Actually if you superficially call them different things then you have a problem. You can only have one method to handle contradiction, any other rule that attempts to say otherwise would either have to agree or it's self become a contradiction to the other.

But in this case they don't disagree with each other because they are the same things. The RAI concept, Primary/Secondary policy, and the rule about the Order of Rules all handle them selves identically. Outside of exceptions, the primary rule is the most specific rule. It's just one of them simply calls it's self an update that trumps the rest while the others take second place "historical" prizes for not being as clear and laying the groundwork.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 05:20:06 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline eggynack

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Re: Is Warlock broken?
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2016, 08:01:12 PM »
Not at all and yes, the intent always been there but outside of the RC it was never a stated rule to handle things like that, only implied or called a policy in the Errata.
Indeed, the rule was largely present only through implication and intent. And, of course, through the past behavior of games. But making that information explicit does not strictly imply that the old explicit rule ceases to be. That implication would have to be separately proved, and I can't see any evidence for such a proof.


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But now you'll incur a problem of double standards because you want to start arguing that policy or RAI concept gleam from how the books handle them selves should be treated as a rule and it cannot be replaced, ever, because your bias blinds you from treating them equally.
Are you referring to specific versus general or primacy here? In the former case, that's not how these books happen to handle themselves so much as the way all games have worked in the past, to the point where it's just an unstated rule of rule sets. Rules don't even work without that underlying concept in the vast majority of cases. In the latter case, there's obviously no double standard because I'm citing explicit text where there is none for the  FAQ.
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You can only have one method to handle contradiction, any other rule that attempts to say otherwise would either have to agree or it's self become a contradiction to the other.
Not necessarily the case, and, in fact, not the case here. In particular, the two rules could, and do, handle different sorts of contradictions. If that's the case, then two rules for contradictions could easily exist. I'll go into a lot more detail on how that works in the next part.

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But in this case they don't disagree with each other because they are the same things. The RAI concept, Primary/Secondary policy, and the rule about the Order of Rules all handle them selves identically. Outside of exceptions, the primary rule is the most specific rule. It's just one of them simply calls it's self an update that trumps the rest while the others take second place "historical" prizes for not being as clear and laying the groundwork.
They do not handle themselves identically. The order of rules specifically sets forth a hierarchy of rules by specificity, where an individual rule is given an arbitrary specificity label (I say arbitrary because more than three could easily exist, and I could probably point to actual examples of that if necessary), and rules with labels indicating greater specificity get precedence. The proof of this meaning of the text is rather trivial, as I need only note that variations in specificity are always applied directly to the rules. Primacy, meanwhile, doesn't care at all about the specifics of the rule itself and the labels on that rule. It only cares about the source of that rule, and the broad nature of that rule (where, say, the general nature of special attacks gets the same labeling as some specific special attacks). So, under this rule, you give each rule a label, either primary or secondary, based solely on whether the book in question is the primary source for that rule, and primary rules get precedence (I don't think there are more than two primacy labels). Again, this can be easily shown by considering the primary source rule. I mean, it's right there in the title. Primacy modifies source and not rule, and the text supports that reading.

These two rule sets could theoretically be equivalent, were primary sources always more specific or something, but they're not. To show this, just consider some applications. Let's take one we know, the arcane thesis situation, but modify it a bit. In particular, we'll imagine that arcane thesis is in the PHB, with that errata text included, and the text from the FAQ is instead in, I dunno, races of eberron. Neither piece of text is more specific than the other, because each is saying things on the exact same level. "You do get this lower spell level adjustment," is just as specific as, "You don't get this lower spell level adjustment." We're not talking about a specific situation where you lose the lower adjustment, after all. In this case, the PHB, as the primary source, would win. It's a situation which the general/specific rules have absolutely no way to adjudicate, because the specificity labeling is the same.

Next, consider the inverse situation. Human says you have a 30 ft. base movement speed. Fly says you now have this flight speed, contradicting the fact that your only movement speed is that one along the ground. Fly wins, because it's more specific. And, for the sake of argument, and because it's true, we can assume these things are in the same book. The primacy label does nothing, so we must use specificity. Really easy case, that, which speaks to how fundamental this rule is to game design.

Now we must consider a pair of more problematic cases where these rules don't tell you everything you want to know. First, you have the case where specificity and primacy are both equivalent for a pair of contradictory rules. This situation is fundamentally unresolvable, and arguments about such rules usually involve arguing that one such rule is actually more specific. It's a bit difficult to prove identical specificity, but, again, we can consider that arcane thesis situation except with each piece of text in the same book. Notably, this situation only leads to failure in cases where each individual rule would also lead to failure, so it's not like the extra rule is adding ambiguity. Next, we have situations where one rule is more specific and from a secondary source. It's hard to see which resolution rule would win out here from the rules themselves, but looking at how these rules are applied indicates that specificity wins out. After all, a flight spell from any other source would work as well.

So, if specificity is the dominant rule, then why doesn't the FAQ win? Well, simply because the rules aren't actually more specific. This goes back to the FAQ's nature as a source of rulings. Any entry of the FAQ, as a thing describing how a rule works, is necessarily going to be on the same specificity level as the rule it's based on. The FAQ answers aren't saying, "The way the books say it works is correct, except...", they're saying, "Here's how we read this rule." So, in point of fact, if specificity were the only way to resolve rules conflicts, then the FAQ would simply move from unimpactful source to creator of awful ambiguities all over the place. Step backwards, by my reckoning, though you shouldn't take that bad outcome as the core of the argument.

That's my reading of the pair of rules, anyway. It seems self consistent, at least, and I think it also matches up with the rules as they are presented within the books. Which would make it the correct interpretation. And, of course, the self consistency of that reading would at least resolve your claimed contradiction.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 02:56:50 PM by eggynack »