Tome of Battle rework

[Nanshork]

Glad to know I read it correctly.

Hmm, you could do something like this:

   In addition to recovering a maneuver through meditation, you may also do so by making a skill check as a special action immediately after attacking a foe in melee.  Roll a skill check against the opponent except the DC is equal to your opponent's AC or the normal DC, whichever is higher.  You must meet all normal requirements of making the skill (such as the requirements for making a hide check) and the results of the skill check take place normally.  You have the option of either making the skill check as a move action with no penalty or as a swift action by adding five to the DC.
   You also have the option of rolling the skill check as above except the DC is equal to your opponent's AC and the skill check has no effect except for the purposes of recovering a maneuver.
   The skill check can be made even if the attack was unsuccessful, but you can only recover a maneuver from a school associated with the skill check that you are making (Desert Wind for Tumble, Shadow Hand for Hide, etc).  You may only recover one maneuver each round. You may not regain a maneuver you used in this turn, and you may not use the maneuver you gained until your next turn.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, I think that's about what I was aiming for.

[Nanshork]

Shit, I realized it still needs minor tweaking.

   In addition to recovering a maneuver through meditation, you may also do so by making a skill check as a special action immediately after attacking a foe in melee.  Roll a skill check against the opponent except the DC is equal to your opponent's AC or the normal DC, whichever is higher.  You must meet all normal requirements of making the skill (such as the requirements for making a hide check) and the results of the skill check take place normally.  You have the option of either making the skill check as a move action with no penalty or as a swift action by adding five to the DC.
   In addition, you can instead roll the skill check as above except the DC is equal to your opponent's AC and the skill check has no effect except for the purposes of recovering a maneuver.  You do not need to meet any requirements of making the skill check (such as the requirements for making a hide check) when making the skill check in this way.
   The skill check can be made even if the attack was unsuccessful, but you can only recover a maneuver from a school associated with the skill check that you are making (Desert Wind for Tumble, Shadow Hand for Hide, etc).  You may only recover one maneuver each round. You may not regain a maneuver you used in this turn, and you may not use the maneuver you gained until your next turn.


There, no requirements required for making a special hide check only to recover a maneuver and not also hide. 

I'm obviously okay with what I wrote so feel free to adjust and then put it into Swordsage.

[RobbyPants]

This is a bit different, in that I'm allowing either for normal skill checks (encouraging swashbuckler shenanigans) or as a special check against the opponent's AC.

Sadly, a few skills won't be as useful during combat with the first approach, but that's why the second option is available. The side effect is that maneuvers from Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, and Tiger Claw are more likely to be recovered "organically".


   In addition to recovering a maneuver through meditation, you may also do so by making a skill check in one of two ways:

• Make a skill check under normal circumstances. For example: you might roll a Tumble check to avoid attacks of opportunity, or a Balance check while navigating an uneven floor, or a Jump check to make a jump. The skill takes the normal action to use, and follows all the normal rules for such a skill check.
   
• Make a special skill check immediately after an opponent for the sole purpose of regaining a maneuver. You may roll this check as a move action and the DC is equal to the opponent's AC. You may opt to roll it as a swift action instead, raising the DC by +5.
   

In either case, if your skill check is successful, you recover one maneuver of a discipline associated with the skill (Shaodow Hand for Hide, Desert Wind for Tumble, etc). You may not use the maneuver the same round you recover it, and you may not recover a maneuver already used this round. You may only recover one maneuver per round this way.

[Nanshork]

I'm not sure what your "this is a bit different" sentence was about because I never went away from that.

Your version is much nicer looking than mine, and has more restrictions.  I like it (except it has a typo in Shadow Hand).

[RobbyPants]

I'm not sure what your "this is a bit different" sentence was about because I never went I like it (except it has a typo in Shadow Hand).

It's a new Discipline I created as part of this home brew. Honest.

I'll add it to the OP.

[Nanshork]

I just re-read the sentence and you moved the vs AC line to the the special use part so you're fine.  I was in a hurry and read things differently earlier.

Are we done with the classes?

[RobbyPants]

Are we done with the classes?

If you don't see anything major, probably. I didn't want to change a lot with the classes. Probably the biggest change was the modified maneuver progression, ability to swap maneuvers easier, and full BAB for the swordsage.

I don't know if you gave it any look, but how do you feel about the swashbuckler swordsage ACF? I haven't made one up to play yet. I'm hoping it captures the feel I wanted.

Other than that, by big concern is the maneuvers (which is the largest part of the project). They definitely make the martial adepts lethal at higher levels, but I'm comparing that to casters.

[Nanshork]

The two for one discipline trade-off stands out but given that Iron Heart is one of the better disciplines it's probably fine (although I haven't reviewed your versions of the disciplines yet).

Without reduced action feinting I don't expect that maneuver recovery ability to be used much.

[RobbyPants]

Without reduced action feinting I don't expect that maneuver recovery ability to be used much.

True. It's actually possible this is a near copy-paste from my old house rules, where I had Feint as a move-action before applying any feats. Would it be too much to give move-action feinting as a class feature at level 1? It'd certainly make this class dippable for rogues, but I'm not sure it bothers me that people would want their rogues to be a bit swashbucklery.

[Nanshork]

I've never actually seen anyone use feint in a game ever so I can't imagine it would be too unbalancing.