Gestalt build suggestion solicitation.

[nijineko]

So, I have the task of building a level 2 character for a campaign using gestalt rules in UA.

• All 3.5 (but no 3.0, oddly) sources deemed official by WotC are on the table.
• PbeM format, none of the players have met each other yet (and may not for quite a while), thus self sufficiency is important
• DM aiming for roughly 55/45 RP/Combat metric.
• I will be using psionics on one side of the gestalt. i'm not fond of the vancian spell system, so please don't suggest anything using it.
• I apparently cannot use two psionic classes in any given level of the gestalt.
• Character will be starting at level 2.
• DM is unfamiliar with psionics specifically, but is game, so long as I am upfront about the implications of everything I am selecting / doing / pulling off in the character build.
• Given that the game is already using gestalt, the power level options I proposed for the character build were: mild, give it some gas, go for broke, or blow-up-the-planet-DBZ-style... and the DM selected "Go for Broke, so long as it is not Blow-up-the-planet"
• I'm having trouble deciding exactly which build I want to go with.

So far, here are my initial thoughts on builds:

• Hengeyokai (sparrow) Psion (Egoist) with the Change Shape ACF, maybe tashlatora monk to start on the second side followed up by fighter or rogue? Aim for wildshape, warshaper, MoMF, and other wildshaping prestige classes. Pros: wildshaping + psionics, amusing to go monk on someone in animal form. (go all monkey king, or kung fu panda on them?) Cons: full shapeshifting late in coming online.
• Erudite StP, go for the incarnum endless pp trick and the linked power combo to start with, pick up one level of psy war and psy rog eventually for the powers known, get metamind and pick up the nomad reiteration power for really endless pp at higher level. Pros: never run out of pp. Phenomenal cosmic knowledge/power. Cons: again, late coming online. xp drain to learn new powers.
• Wilder + Erbaurer (astral constructor) updated to 3.5, so is a valid choice given the DM limitations, not sure what I would pick on the second side. something to avoid combat so as to let the constructs soak the damage. Pros: build-to-order minions, Cons: still rather squishy.
• Sangehirn (psi-healer) for the more peaceful and rp-heavy route. Also updated for 3.5 and thus valid. Pros: not many people will hate a healer, at least until the conspiracies unravel. Lots more RP opportunities. Cons: not usually seen as a heavy hitter, even if they can soak up the damage (and even transfer some of it).
• Something above with the Changeling prestige class and able learner - maybe the shapeshifter? Pros: Be all you can be. Cons: behind everyone else.

Other suggestions welcome!

I am leaning towards the Erudite or the Healer at the moment. Talk to me!

[awaken_D_M_golem]

DM aiming for roughly 55 / 45 RP/Combat metric.

The wilder idea on the one side, is the least amount of having the "explain psionics" conversation.
// Rogue 1 / Sorc X , psyref , recharge and maybe a Dr#349 feat or 2 , would be more than enough.

[nijineko]

DM aiming for roughly 55 / 45 RP/Combat metric.

The wilder idea on the one side, is the least amount of having the "explain psionics" conversation.
// Rogue 1 / Sorc X , psyref , recharge and maybe a Dr#349 feat or 2 , would be more than enough.

No vancian spell system!!!

Bad kitty, bad!

Otherwise, an excellent point about the conversation.

[Nifft]

IMHO you need some at-will powers to conserve your Psionic awesome for the appropriate moment. That means either melee or one of the at-will magic classes:

Erudite 20 // Binder 20

Erudite 20 // Warlock 20

Erudite 20 // Dragonfire Adept 20

... or go melee on the other side:

Erudite 20 // Warblade 20

Erudite 20 // Swordsage 20

Erudite 20 // Totemist 20


On a different topic, you mention Chameleon, but before that you had specified "no Vancian casting". How did you intend to fit the Chameleon's Vancian casting into your character?

[nijineko]

On a different topic, you mention Chameleon, but before that you had specified "no Vancian casting". How did you intend to fit the Chameleon's Vancian casting into your character?

lol, the dumb and obvious way - by simply not using those parts of the class features, and bluffing my way through. ^^

Good question though.

And a very excellent point about at will powers.

That was partly what the incarnum trick was for, actually, nearly at-will power points. (every other round depending on feat selection, but still) and the metamind/nomad reiteration trick at higher levels.

[Nifft]

On a different topic, you mention Chameleon, but before that you had specified "no Vancian casting". How did you intend to fit the Chameleon's Vancian casting into your character?

lol, the dumb and obvious way - by simply not using those parts of the class features, and bluffing my way through. ^^

Good question though.

Okay, then you're saying you are considering Chameleon for the combat + stealth + nature persona options? Ugh, those are terrible. Seriously just take Scout 20 on the other side instead.

And a very excellent point about at will powers.

That was partly what the incarnum trick was for, actually, nearly at-will power points. (every other round depending on feat selection, but still) and the metamind/nomad reiteration trick at higher levels.

The DM is not already familiar with Psionics, so I would strongly recommend staying away from tricks that would tend to make Psionics look broken.

It's easy enough to pair your Psi side with an at-will side that allows you to naturally conserve power points for an eventual nova, and doing so will help to prevent the appearance of impropriety.

[nijineko]

On a different topic, you mention Chameleon, but before that you had specified "no Vancian casting". How did you intend to fit the Chameleon's Vancian casting into your character?

lol, the dumb and obvious way - by simply not using those parts of the class features, and bluffing my way through. ^^

Good question though.

Okay, then you're saying you are considering Chameleon for the combat + stealth + nature persona options? Ugh, those are terrible. Seriously just take Scout 20 on the other side instead.

And a very excellent point about at will powers.

That was partly what the incarnum trick was for, actually, nearly at-will power points. (every other round depending on feat selection, but still) and the metamind/nomad reiteration trick at higher levels.

The DM is not already familiar with Psionics, so I would strongly recommend staying away from tricks that would tend to make Psionics look broken.

It's easy enough to pair your Psi side with an at-will side that allows you to naturally conserve power points for an eventual nova, and doing so will help to prevent the appearance of impropriety.

Point about avoiding Chameleon - I'll count that off the table then.

How do you suggest balancing "Go for Broke" power level with avoiding making Psionics look broken? After all, the rest of the players (if and when I run into them) will also be using "Go for Broke" optimizations on the non-psionics side....

[Keldar]

Sangheirn is still generally an Egoist, Crusader for the B side to be a heal-Tank of infinite face smash?  Its all Cleric, minus all the Cleric!

[nijineko]

Sangheirn is still generally an Egoist, Crusader for the B side to be a heal-Tank of infinite face smash?  Its all Cleric, minus all the Cleric!

lol, the way you phrase that just sounds like so much fun. ^^

that build would just need a method of gaining the turning / positive energy release ability to be the true cleric replacement.

Especially if I go with the Life Mantle ACF for the psion side.

[Nifft]

How do you suggest balancing "Go for Broke" power level with avoiding making Psionics look broken? After all, the rest of the players (if and when I run into them) will also be using "Go for Broke" optimizations on the non-psionics side....

Something which does not require questionable rulings to function.

For example: Bestow Power + Earth Power + Torc of Power Preservation.

[nijineko]

How do you suggest balancing "Go for Broke" power level with avoiding making Psionics look broken? After all, the rest of the players (if and when I run into them) will also be using "Go for Broke" optimizations on the non-psionics side....

Something which does not require questionable rulings to function.

For example: Bestow Power + Earth Power + Torc of Power Preservation.

Another good point.

I don't have control over my equipment at this point, plus, only second level. Still, good suggestion.

[Keldar]

Sangheirn is still generally an Egoist, Crusader for the B side to be a heal-Tank of infinite face smash?  Its all Cleric, minus all the Cleric!

lol, the way you phrase that just sounds like so much fun. ^^

that build would just need a method of gaining the turning / positive energy release ability to be the true cleric replacement.

Especially if I go with the Life Mantle ACF for the psion side.

Binder can give Turn Undead, but that's a deep cut.  Probably best with a PrC like Soldier of Light or something.

[nijineko]

After some more discussion with various people, I think I will be going for a mystical uber monk by mixing psionics stuff, monk related stuff, and ToB stuff.

Any revised suggestions?

[SorO_Lost]

Any revised suggestions?

Race: Proto-Creature Dragonborn Water Orc
Class: StP Erudite 2 // Monk 2
Feats: Talented(?) + Inner Strength + Trigger Power(bestow power) or Linked Power & Metapower(linked power).
Plus for later considerations to PrC out on the Monk's side after Dark Moon Disciple's 7th level, Monastic Training & Tashalatora

PB: 14/12/14/16/12/10 & +8/-2/+4/-4/-2/-6 = Str 22, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 4.
Cutting it close for a PC race on the Charisma, Int is intentionally low since you won't be using save-or-dies. Instead focus on buffs and saveless control spells like grease or ice slick and such.

[Nifft]

Be a "monk" by taking Swordsage levels and ignoring the Monk class entirely.

Mix with either Ardent or Psion.

You'll want a high Dex, Con, and Wis or Int (or both). If you're ability-point starved, consider taking the Ascetic Psion feat.

You get Powers and Maneuvers.
• As an Erudite or Psion, you get a large number of powers, plus bonus feats. Psion powers can be great as utility and defense, but at low levels they don't compete with melee powers.
• Erudites get fewer different powers per day, so having a small "palette" of go-to powers is critical to preserving your late-day flexibility.
• As a Swordsage, you get a lot of Maneuvers, some of which can be used defensively.

To start out with, I'd suggest mixing evenly attack & utility Powers, and mixing evenly defense & attack Maneuvers. Assuming you can buff all 4 of your main stats (Dex + Con + Int + Wis), then I'd do something like...

L1: Egoist 1 // Swordsage 1
* L1 Feat: Adaptive Style
+ p1 Bonus Feat: Psicrystal Affinity
+ Quick to Act +1
+ Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand)
Maneuvers (6): Burning Blade (DW), Wind Stride (DW), Moment of Perfect Clarity (DM), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM), Shadow Blade Technique (SH), Sudden Leap (TC)
Stance: Step of the Wind (SS)
Powers: Demoralize, Entangling Ectoplasm, Vigor

L2: Egoist 2 // Swordsage 2
+ Int to AC
Maneuver: Charging Minotaur (SD)
Stance: Hunter's Sense (TC)
Powers: Crystal Shard, Telempathic Projection

=====

L3: Egoist 3 // Swordsage 3
* L3 Feat: Weapon Finesse
Maneuver: Shadow Jaunt (SH)
Powers: Empathic Transfer, Energy Stun

L4: Egoist 4 // Swordsage 4
+ Insightful Strike (whatever)
Maneuver: Mountain Hammer (SD), Burning Blade -> Hatchling's Flame (DW)
Powers: Control Sound, Share Pain

L5: Egoist 5 // Swordsage 5
+ p5 Bonus Feat: Expanded Knowledge (astral construct)
Maneuver: Mind over Body (DM)
Stance: Assassin's Stance (SH)
Powers: Time Hop, Hustle

L6: Egoist 6 // Swordsage 6
* L6 Feat: Shadow Blade
...



Note that this isn't optimal in any particular direction. It's generally solid, and ought to carry you across a wide variety of situations.

[nijineko]

Any revised suggestions?

Race: Proto-Creature Dragonborn Water Orc
Class: StP Erudite 2 // Monk 2
Feats: Talented(?) + Inner Strength + Trigger Power(bestow power) or Linked Power & Metapower(linked power).
Plus for later considerations to PrC out on the Monk's side after Dark Moon Disciple's 7th level, Monastic Training & Tashalatora

PB: 14/12/14/16/12/10 & +8/-2/+4/-4/-2/-6 = Str 22, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 4.
Cutting it close for a PC race on the Charisma, Int is intentionally low since you won't be using save-or-dies. Instead focus on buffs and saveless control spells like grease or ice slick and such.

Interesting suggestions! a scary build, as expected from you.

Sadly, per the DM, no 3.0 material allowed (!?) only 3.5 explicitely, so that will knock out a number of your feat suggestions. The low INT will also hinder Erudite progression past 2nd level powers or spell-powers eventually.

I was thinking of using a kalashtar or elan along with carmendine or kung-fu genius to shift the monk to INT. monastic+tash is a solid suggestion in any case. I like your suggestion of buffs and save-less powers/spells.

[nijineko]

Be a "monk" by taking Swordsage levels and ignoring the Monk class entirely.

There is some value in that.

I wonder, would it be of sufficient value to take simply one or two levels of monk (bonus feats - which can be customized via OA or UA rules) plus unarmed strike/damage and AC bonus retained via tashalatora? then ignoring the monk class thereafter. I realize that there would be a loss of one initiatory level. Also, Erudites in particular would need to be the numerically superior class (level wise) due to their odd caveat in learn new powers.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Be a "monk" by taking Swordsage levels and ignoring the Monk class entirely.

There is some value in that.

I wonder, would it be of sufficient value to take simply one or two levels of monk (bonus feats - which can be customized via OA or UA rules) plus unarmed strike/damage and AC bonus retained via tashalatora? then ignoring the monk class thereafter. I realize that there would be a loss of one initiatory level. Also, Erudites in particular would need to be the numerically superior class (level wise) due to their odd caveat in learn new powers.

2 Levels Monk is a pretty strong dip IMO just to pick up those base class features and the feats. 2 levels also nets you evasion, which you can trade out for Invisible Fist for 1/3 round true Invisibility as a Immediate Action.

[Nifft]

Be a "monk" by taking Swordsage levels and ignoring the Monk class entirely.

There is some value in that.

I wonder, would it be of sufficient value to take simply one or two levels of monk (bonus feats - which can be customized via OA or UA rules) plus unarmed strike/damage and AC bonus retained via tashalatora? then ignoring the monk class thereafter. I realize that there would be a loss of one initiatory level. Also, Erudites in particular would need to be the numerically superior class (level wise) due to their odd caveat in learn new powers.

My house rule about mutli-class feats & multi-class PrCs is: you can take them in Gestalt, but all your qualifications MUST come from the same side of the build. So in one of my games, you could take Tanquerayaorta if you had taken Monk and Erudite (or Monk and Psion) on the same side.

= = =

If you're allowed to qualify for Tasslehoffaloha by cutting across both sides, then my recommendation would be:

Erudite 3 // Warblade 3
Erudite +2 // Monk 2
(Tarantulahola at level 6)
Erudite + // Warblade +

Taking two non-Warblade levels before level 4 allows you to score a level 3 Stance at character level 6, which makes a pure Warblade feel sad.

Warblades have some nice Intelligence synergy, too.

[SorO_Lost]

Sadly, per the DM, no 3.0 material allowed (!?) only 3.5 explicitely, so that will knock out a number of your feat suggestions. The low INT will also hinder Erudite progression past 2nd level powers or spell-powers eventually.

Not really, by level 4 you can Manifest Fox's Cunning which will last you until the 13th level (7th level access) and I'm sure by then you found another bonus to use.

But Kung-Fu Genius would help out a lot, being spread so thin across the ability scores with no real synergy it can't even benefit from the AC Bonus until it gets 2nd level Powers. Swordsage is generally more of a utility tilt on a build that promises instant benefits which does make it better for a lot of things. But the Monk slowly hands out more defense, stealth, and significantly more damage and as an StP Erudite, utility is the one thing you'll never lack. I'd just stick to the normal Monk, heck you could even keep Evasion if you want to stick to free Power Points and manifesting Invisibility. But three bonus Feats, increased Saves, unique extra attacks, extra damage, and such is all stuff Spells have a harder time providing (you need assume supernatural ability & polymorph just to access shadow blend) and typically stack with your more common spell choices anyway.