Templates and racial multiple forms.

[Silveron]

Several races both Dragon mag and books have multiple forms from the start. Tibbit, Hengeyokai, etc. Most of these are referred to as "Spirit Transformations", normal form (and gear) shimmers out and in its place is the new form. "Like Polymorph" Not the bone snapping and muscle tearing of some were-templates where the gear drops or must be removed.

I always believed that template changes, such as dark, draconic, etc., would carry over to the new forms as well.

For example: A Hengeyokai transforms into a Sparrow with a Str of 1. Now a Draconic Hengeyokai would become a Draconic Sparrow with a Str of 3 and be able to fly carrying a light load of up to 10lbs. Nothing game breaking but a tiny size sparrow would be able to pick a heavy iron key ring, full of keys, and fly it over to friends in a jail cell, etc.

I can understand a forced transformation, from a spell or something, might remove a template as long as they are locked in an alien form. Other then that templates would always carry over to the additional forms, correct?

[Chemus]

Templates should not be changed or lost unless they say that they are...

However the line in alternate form that says:

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

might prevent the template from persisting through the change. Though the alternate form is not providing the template, so it's not perfectly clear to me.

[Silveron]

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

might prevent the template from persisting through the change. Though the alternate form is not providing the template, so it's not perfectly clear to me.

I think that is more to prevent free templates at will in transformation. If you could pick and choose every time you changed that would be very broken. Would be interesting and fun though.

[Chemus]

Actually, if the clause I mentioned 'stripped' templates on changing, it'd say so, and lycanthropes couldn't change form. So templates are ignored when you already have them, unless the ability or template say otherwise.

[Silveron]

I think that is more to prevent free templates at will in transformation. If you could pick and choose every time you changed that would be very broken. Would be interesting and fun though.

I ment more (and understood from your clause) that if you had no inherent template and wanted to turn into a bear you could not just pick to turn into a dark bear because your on the plane of shadow or a half-giant bear just because you wanted something stronger. No free further modification from the alternate form by selecting a templated version of the same form.

Otherwise, an inherent template would be you (for all intents and purposes) including your natural and alternate forms. Else you would also lose all stat, ability, and other bonus at change, as well as your CR and LA would change as well. Would you gain free levels when you change forms and lose the LA?

To use a double template, I would expect a Dark Werewolf to have a Dark Humanoid form, a Dark Hybrid form, and a Dark Wolf form. It's all the same being. So same for single template, a Draconic Tibbit would have a Draconic Humanoid form and a Draconic Cat form.

What did you mean by lycanthropes couldn't change forms?

[Chemus]

I was correcting myself regarding the potential of that clause; if Alternate Form stripped templates, then when a lycanthrope changed forms, he'd lose the lycan template, thus being unable to change forms (or stuck as a wolf/hybrid)

[Tshern]

I was correcting myself regarding the potential of that clause; if Alternate Form stripped templates, then when a lycanthrope changed forms, he'd lose the lycan template, thus being unable to change forms (or stuck as a wolf/hybrid)

Your Alternate Form turns you into, using your example, a sparrow, not a Draconic sparrow and thus you assume the physical ability scores of a sparrow.

Then there is this. Assuming this is the version you are using, it quite explicitly states the ability scores for the various forms.

Furthermore, you are mistaken about the lycanthropes. Polymorphing does not remove your supernatural abilities, nor does the lycanthropes' Alternate Form. Relevant passage here:

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Long story short: Your physical ability score adjustments from templates do not carry over if you Polymorph or use the kind of Alternate Form described in the Hengeyokai entry I linked.

[Silveron]

I was correcting myself regarding the potential of that clause; if Alternate Form stripped templates, then when a lycanthrope changed forms, he'd lose the lycan template, thus being unable to change forms (or stuck as a wolf/hybrid)

Ah, Sorry. Misinterpreted what you were saying.

Long story short: Your physical ability score adjustments from templates do not carry over if you Polymorph or use the kind of Alternate Form described in the Hengeyokai entry I linked.

It is not Polymorph. It just says "Like Polymorph" to give you basic understanding of the process. If this were true Polymorph per information you linked:

     Natural abilities include armor, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, swoop and rake, and constriction; but not petrification, breath weapons, energy drain, energy effects, etc.), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, etc.).

You would gain feats of the animal upon transformation. Hengeyokai do not. Every bird that I have seen have at least two feats, always Alertness and most of the time Flyby Attack or Weapon Finesse.

Per Polymorph Other: When the polymorph occurs, the creature's equipment, if any, transforms to match the new form. If the new form is a creature that does not use equipment (aberration, animal, beast, magical beast, construct, dragon, elemental, ooze, some outsiders, plant, some undead creatures, some shapechangers, or vermin), the equipment melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.

Per Lycanthrope: Alternate Form (Su): A lycanthrope can shift into animal form as though using the polymorph spell on itself, though her gear is not affected.

Now, Per Alternate Form (Su): The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

So, the Sparrow scores are Base only and can be modified exactly like the Hengeyokai base.

This would include the inherent Template modification to Str.

[Tshern]

It is not Polymorph. It just says "Like Polymorph" to give you basic understanding of the process. If this were true Polymorph per information you linked:

     Natural abilities include armor, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, swoop and rake, and constriction; but not petrification, breath weapons, energy drain, energy effects, etc.), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, etc.).

You would gain feats of the animal upon transformation. Hengeyokai do not. Every bird that I have seen have at least two feats, always Alertness and most of the time Flyby Attack or Weapon Finesse.

Okay, so the Polymorph part is just utter and total fluff.

Now, Per Alternate Form (Su): The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

So... the ability scores are modified (or not modified) precisely the same way as it does with Polymorph?

So, the Sparrow scores are Base only and can be modified exactly like the Hengeyokai base.

Absolutely not. As you point out yourself, the ability score modifications work exactly like they do with Polymorph. Even your post says that you assume the physical scores of the creature you turn into. So, say, sparrow. Not Draconic sparrow, but sparrow. Your reading makes no sense at all.

[Chemus]

So, Tshern, you're saying that Hengeyokai, using Alternate Form, gets the exact Physical stats and Natural AC that the ability says, irrespective of what any templates the Hengeyokai has, right? The [draconic] hengeyokai is still draconic, but the form it assumes has no changes from a normal [insert hengeyokai animal here] because the description of the hengeyokai doesn't say any differently.

Lycanthropes, for example, do have different physical stats from whatever their template(s) and racial changes are, due to the updated SRD text (scroll down to "Creating a Lycanthrope"):

Abilities: All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores –10 or –11. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

In addition, a lycanthrope may also gain an additional ability score increase by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.

Their Natural AC and other alterations from alternate form would be unchanged, but they have different, specific rules regarding ability scores.

[Tshern]

So, Tshern, you're saying that Hengeyokai, using Alternate Form, gets the exact Physical stats and Natural AC that the ability says, irrespective of what any templates the Hengeyokai has, right? The [draconic] hengeyokai is still draconic, but the form it assumes has no changes from a normal [insert hengeyokai animal here] because the description of the hengeyokai doesn't say any differently.

Lycanthropes, for example, do have different physical stats from whatever their template(s) and racial changes are, due to the updated SRD text (scroll down to "Creating a Lycanthrope"):

Abilities: All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores –10 or –11. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

In addition, a lycanthrope may also gain an additional ability score increase by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.

Their Natural AC and other alterations from alternate form would be unchanged, but they have different, specific rules regarding ability scores.

It's almost as if Lycanthropes and Hengeyokai were two different creatures. Just my point of view, but the wordings of their shape changing abilities are quite different.

In the version you posted, the updated one, the description explicitly states the lycanthrope does not assume the physical ability scores of the form. How's the wording with Hengeyokai?

[Chemus]

Yep, Hengeyokai, when changed to an animal form, get specific stats (OA p10-12) with no changes to the ability in the 3.5 update in DrMag 318.

But when changed to a hybrid form, they get their humanoid stats modified by the table on OA p11.

Another creature referenced in the OP is the tibbit (DrComp, pp21-25), who when changing also merely modifies the stats of the original form rather than replacing them.

So the general rule of Alternate Form, seems as you say: You replace your physical stats with those of the new form, unchanged by templates. However there are shapechangers with specific rules that can be different to these rules. You retain whatever templates you had before the change, unless the method of changing says otherwise. Some features of a template, such as Nat AC, might get supplanted in the changes in form.

Polymorph is a whole other kettle of very old, unpreserved fish, similar to, but distinct from alternate form. (Or rather it is now; it wasn't initially in 3.5). Types change with polymorph, but templates are apparently ignored, both the assumption, and the removal thereof. That still means that physical stats and Natuarl AC are modified to be specific numbers rather than adjustments.

[Silveron]

I went with Dark and Draconic Templates because I thought most would know them, but lets try a different one...

If I made a Corpse Creature Hengeyokai and Templates do not carry over. Then in both Hybrid and Animal form they would become a living creature. If you can not see how broken that would be...

A Hengeyokai is always a Hengeyokai, they are a Hengeyokai in humanoid form, a Hengeyokai hybrid form, and a Hengeyokai Animal form. From birth they are meant to exist in multiple forms. All three forms are natural states for them. They can speak to their own kind. While a dwarf polymorphed into a fluffy little bunny rabbit is now a fluffy little bunny rabbit till the day they die. They do gain the feats of a rabbit but they can not even speak to them. It is a completely unnatural state for them and given enough time they could forget they were even a dwarf. (Cackler)

If forms that do list base scores are permanent and can not be modified, then upon leveling up while in Sparrow from, I could not add +1 to Dex? What about flaws? Could I take the Pathetic Flaw (-2 to ability score) twice, yet since the scores are permanent and can not be modified, I would be completely unaffected by them in Sparrow from? Broken and Broken.

So ether they can be or they can't be modified. A feat is just as much a part of a character as an inherent template. In terms of subtype all three forms gain the dragonblood subtype. He does not become a true sparrow, just form changes to fit a sparrow mold. So a severed arm would carry over to all three forms but the innate ability's granted by his feats and own blood would not???

[zook1shoe]

You keep any type, race, abilities, classes, features, etc. you have, unless the ability, effect, template, etc. says otherwise.

A demilich badger hengeyokai looks like a badger within the normal badger variations, regardless of it still being undead (and despite being a floating, jeweled coccyx in normal form).

The shapechange effect informs you what does and doesn't change. RAW, you'd only change into a sparrow with average sparrow range of features, like color, wing dimensions, etc. Fluffy stuff, like dragonblood sparrow is more or less up to the DM as to it's effects exceeding this.

[Tshern]

The OA Hengeyokai entry literally says that you assume the physical ability scores indicated in the table.

Hengeyokai have the size, speed, AC, damage rating and physical ability scores shown on Table 1-3

.

1 23 10

The latter are listed in the following order: STR, DEX, CON.

As Chemus already explained, this ability does not change in the Dragon Magazine 318 update. The hybrid form offers other options, naturally.

To reiterate: You get the physical ability scores of the sparrow. Not a Draconic sparrow, not a Paragon sparrow, not a Saint sparrow. Just. A. Sparrow.

P.S. Yes, if you had the Pathetic flaw applied to one of your physical ability scores, turning into a sparrow would override it. Thus, if your STR with the flaw would be 8, you would still get the sparrow's score of 1 instead of -1. I am not sure why these rule appear to cause so much confusion.

[Silveron]

The OA Hengeyokai entry literally says that you assume the physical ability scores indicated in the table.

Hengeyokai have the size, speed, AC, damage rating and physical ability scores shown on Table 1-3

.

1 23 10

The latter are listed in the following order: STR, DEX, CON.

I have never argued that you do not get these scores. My only argument is they are base scores, not set in stone, and can be modified. You even finally admitted it in your P.S. but of course you used the only score that would be unaffected by change, making it sound like it backs up your claim that they can't be modified.

Do you not admit that if you had the Pathetic Flaw in Dex that the -2 Dex would carry over into Sparrow form? Dropping the 23 to 21. Exactly the same if you wanted to go Positive with a Greater Strength Feat +1 Str would carry over. Making the 1 into a 2 Str. Proof that the scores can be modified.

A Clockwork Template (Effigy creature, in Complete Arcane), is an construct. Thus a Clockwork Hengeyokai (transformer noise) turns into a Clockwork Sparrow Hengeyokai. So, le poof, be gone Con store in OA, Table 1-3, page 12. Completely and utterly irregardless of what the table says they do not gain a Con score of 10. Why? Because they remain a Construct. They are not a living creature, the change of form does not alter that. Proof that the scores can be modified.

I think that may be where your stuck. You must be in a rut thinking in terms of Polymorph. To give another example: An Elf polymorphed into a Human and mating with another Elf would have Half-Elf children, because they are no longer an Elf. However, an Elf in the form of a Human only appears as a Human and would still have Elven children. Change in form does not change what you are inherently, its only appearance that changes.

Lets go back to the top.
My question was do templates carry over into to different forms? I think the consensus is: Yes.

Feats, special abilities, etc. all seem to carry over. There even seems to be an agreement that Ability score changes also take place where base scores are not listed. As with the Tibbit, where the change in form just lowers str by -8 and +2 is added to dex. Where Half-Giant Were-Wolves can also exist.

So, per Alternate Form (Su):

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

I should write the company, I have found the first short sighted wording in the rules!!! They did not take players using inherent templates into consideration when it wrote it. They just wanted to make sure you could not gain a template for free or at will. It should say:

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a different template then they already have, if any.

Because the very first bullet point of Alternate Form is:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

Irrevocable proof that inherent templates do carry over with all changes Type and Subtype can drastically make to a character. Example: A Hengeyokai regardless of what form he is in always stays a Humanoid Type (Per 3.5 update) with Shapeshifter Subtype and is acceptable to Charm Person. Even while in animal form. While a Half-Fiend Hengeyokai becomes an Outsider Type with Shapeshifter Subtype and is now immune to Charm Person.

I am not sure why these rule appear to cause so much confusion.

You seem to be the only one confused. Your whole and only argument against changes being made, to Hengeyokai only, is "There is a table OA, Table 1-3, page 12." Yes, there is, good job in finding it.  Saying they can only be what they are listed on the table then P.S.ing and saying they can be changed,  has the effect of canceling out your own point. Word for word as you quoted below.

Hengeyokai have the size, speed, AC, damage rating and physical ability scores shown on Table 1-3

Um... Where exactly are you getting any supporting information that these scores are not base and can not be modified? What page does it say this? Yes, you change your scores to what animal type of Hengeyokai you are as per table. I never said you do not do this. However, Then you modify them by whatever factors you have, absolutely nothing says otherwise. Again, you even agreed, without agreeing by using Str, in your P.S. that they can be modified.

I have given my proof in multiple examples where not only can they be modified but, depending on the template, a score on the tables can be completely ignored all together. You have given no supporting information at all, just the page number of a table.

So, I am sorry. If you can't supply actual information that say otherwise, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree.


Edit: Friend just reminded me of the Multiheaded Template, where the different heads can also have different subtypes. So a Multiheaded Hengeyokai would still retain both heads in animal form and both subtypes.

[Chemus]

Template traits are part of your original form. If you assume another form, some of the template traits get 'covered up'. This often, but not always, includes stats, and almost always includes physical form. That is in fact what you're doing; changing your body's shape/composition.

[zook1shoe]

even if you are a two-headed tauric hegneyokai - wolf, you still only turn into a standard one-headed sparrow without any abnormal features.

why? because the ability turns you into a sparrow. period.

[SorO_Lost]

*Eats some popcorn* It's great being on the outside of this. It's like Silveron thinks the option to become a fluffybunny is modified by something that doesn't affect Special Abilities, or even if it did he illogically thinks he can apply X+2 to a later used set-to-Y ability, probably both even through you can't on either one of those.

In either case there are four, now five, people contributing to this thread.

Your Alternate Form turns you into, using your example, a sparrow, not a Draconic sparrow and thus you assume the physical ability scores of a sparrow.

The shapechange effect informs you what does and doesn't change. RAW, you'd only change into a sparrow with average sparrow range of features, like color, wing dimensions, etc. Fluffy stuff, like dragonblood sparrow is more or less up to the DM as to it's effects exceeding this.

Template traits are part of your original form. If you assume another form, some of the template traits get 'covered up'. This often, but not always, includes stats, and almost always includes physical form. That is in fact what you're doing; changing your body's shape/composition.

It's like Silveron thinks the option to become a fluffybunny is modified by something that doesn't affect Special Abilities, or even if it did he illogically thinks he can apply X+2 to a later used set-to-Y ability, probably both even through you can't on either one of those.

And some how this is a thing.

My question was do templates carry over into to different forms? I think the consensus is: Yes.

@Everyone else, I can feel your irritation. Let if flow through you, feel it's power.

[Tshern]

*Eats some popcorn* It's great being on the outside of this. It's like Silveron thinks the option to become a fluffybunny is modified by something that doesn't affect Special Abilities, or even if it did he illogically thinks he can apply X+2 to a later used set-to-Y ability, probably both even through you can't on either one of those.

In either case there are four, now five, people contributing to this thread.

Your Alternate Form turns you into, using your example, a sparrow, not a Draconic sparrow and thus you assume the physical ability scores of a sparrow.

The shapechange effect informs you what does and doesn't change. RAW, you'd only change into a sparrow with average sparrow range of features, like color, wing dimensions, etc. Fluffy stuff, like dragonblood sparrow is more or less up to the DM as to it's effects exceeding this.

Template traits are part of your original form. If you assume another form, some of the template traits get 'covered up'. This often, but not always, includes stats, and almost always includes physical form. That is in fact what you're doing; changing your body's shape/composition.

It's like Silveron thinks the option to become a fluffybunny is modified by something that doesn't affect Special Abilities, or even if it did he illogically thinks he can apply X+2 to a later used set-to-Y ability, probably both even through you can't on either one of those.

And some how this is a thing.

My question was do templates carry over into to different forms? I think the consensus is: Yes.

@Everyone else, I can feel your irritation. Let if flow through you, feel it's power.

Aye. After my second to last post I already figured I was done and after my last one I most certainly am. An interesting thread in some ways though. Now I know rules are still too stronk at least.