I want to optimize Elocator

[ataraxic]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elocater

I want to try to utilize all of his features as best as possible. His extra 5-foot step per turn is wonderful for initiating Skirmish damage, and his flanking bonuses + ability to teleport make Sneak Attack very viable. At the same time, he isn't getting ideal BAB and his teleportation won't allow full attacks in the same turn.

So, first I'd like some clarifications. What about Dimension Step is any different than simply manifesting the power Psionic Dimension Door?
I don't understand the specifics of what I'm allowed to do during a Dimension Spring Attack. Do I move 5 ft before teleporting? After? Do I need to return to the spot I was ported to in order to port back after the attack?
What exactly is Accelerated Action? What does it do? The effect uses two wordings: "while accelerated" and "use accelerated action". Do I get to manifest a power as a free action, then full attack with a bonus attack? Can I move an additional 30 ft as a free action?

Even though I don't fully get the exact effects of all of his abilities, I like the idea of a fast, flanking, teleporting, melee attacker. Because it seems he is supposed to utilize Spring Attack, it would appear his main strengths come from only making a single melee attack per round. I can't think of many feats/powers/abilities that utilize single melee attacks to the fullest, so I would also like some help brainstorming here. My best ideas are getting as much Sneak Attack damage as possible or dipping a Tome of Battle Prestige Class for single attack maneuvers.

All of that said, he requires some manifesting as well, which most likely means 2 or 3 levels of Psion. This leaves 7 levels of additional classes to help boost his effectiveness. Because multiclass penalties will probably be an issue, his race will most likely end up as Human, which is fine I guess. I'm just not entirely sure which classes would best compliment him.

[snakeman830]

Truthfully, it's best to not go deep at all into Elocator.  The benefits just don't outweigh the losses of three lousy feats and the lost manifester levels.  Yes, this does mean that you won't get the oddly hilarious dodge bonus to attack rolls.

Psionic Dimension Door does not allow you any actions until your next turn after you teleport.  You can't even make AoO's.  The Dimension Spring Attack lets you effectively teleport twice and make an attack in between.  You don't need to make any movement other than the teleportation, but you do need to return to your starting point.

As for using the granted ability over manifesting the power, the only real difference is that you don't spend any power points using the granted ability.

Accelerated Action nets you 5 rounds/day (split as you choose) of something akin to a 3.0 Haste spell.  Basically, each round you use it, you can choose one of three benefits:

*One extra attack in a full attack at your highest attack bonus
*+30ft enhancement bonus to your speed
*manifest a power with a manifesting time of 1 standard action or shorter, so long as you haven't already manifested a power that round.

During any round that you activate the ability, you get a +2 dodge bonus on attack rolls, reflex saves, and armor class.

Generally, Spring Attack is a trap.  You can't provide a meaningful offense with a single basic melee attack.    Since it's not a part of a charge (both Spring Attack and charging are full-round actions), nor is it a standard action (so you can't use strikes from ToB), you REALLY have a tough time making it work.

My suggestion:  Cut out Elocator in its entirety.  If you want psionics, I suggest either a Psychic Warrior or a Psion gish using Inconstant Location from Sandstorm.  Each round, it lets you teleport a distance equal to what you could cover in a move action as a swift action.

Now, each one has its advantages and disadvantages.  The Psychic Warrior buffs itself better and is built for melee combat, however, since Inconstant Location is a 6th level power, the earliest you could manage this is 16th level.  The Psion gish (most likely using Slayer) will nab it at level 11 or 12 and has far more powers to select from.

[Nachofan99]

Why can't you Spring Attack with Maneuvers?  ToB pg. 39-40 doesn't seem to me to conflict *at all* with PhB. pg. 139 "Standard Actions: Attack" and PhB pg. 100 Spring Attack feat "attack action." (Put all the page numbers down for ease of book reference".

A Standard Action with an attack roll, is an "attack action".  A Standard Action Maneuver with an attack roll is also an "attack action".  I don't see a conflict.

It's kind of funny to have the Elocator be able to "fight defensively" for profit.  I'm sure it's not suuuuper optimal but...there are some options. 

[snakeman830]

Why can't you Spring Attack with Maneuvers?  ToB pg. 39-40 doesn't seem to me to conflict *at all* with PhB. pg. 139 "Standard Actions: Attack" and PhB pg. 100 Spring Attack feat "attack action." (Put all the page numbers down for ease of book reference".

A Standard Action with an attack roll, is an "attack action".  A Standard Action Maneuver with an attack roll is also an "attack action".  I don't see a conflict.

Because an "attack action" is one of the things you can do with a standard action, but is not an action type in and of itself.  An attack of opportunity is an "attack action", but you can't use a strike on them either.  A Full Attack is an "attack action", but because it takes a full-round action to do, you can't use a strike with it.

Using Spring Attack is a full-round action, and all strikes are either Standard or Full-round actions.  You cannot combine them.

[Nachofan99]

Let me ask a quick question.  Did you even take a look at the pages I referenced for you?  Just curious.

Also, the OP said they want to optimize the Elocator.  Now, I get it.  Maybe they can get significantly better results with another mix/match of classes/feats/prc etc and that's fine.  But sometimes, people want to optimize something particular for whatever reason.  So telling some straight up "You're better off not using Elocator at all" is rarely helpful.

[snakeman830]

Didn't need to look.  An "attack action" is not the same as a strike (despite most of them requiring an attack).  Because Spring Attack only gives you an attack action and not a standard, you cannot combine it with a strike, just like Shot on the Run doesn't let you use Manyshot.

Flyby Attack, however, explicitly allows a Standard action, so it does work.

Now, what it seemed like what he was asking for to me was the concept of the Elocator, so I went off of that instead.

For optimizing Elocator itself, I suggest stopping after one level when its best and most unique ability is gained.  Scorn Earth doesn't look like much, but it really is a fantastic ability.  Moving along walls, ceilings, liquids, etc. is rather nice.  Ignoring terrain modifiers and falling?  Nicer still.

Now, there are two more break points for the PrC.  Those are 4 (for Flanker) and 7 (for the second 5-ft step).  Dimension Spring Attack is done far better by dipping Swordsage for Shadow Blink and Shadow Stride.  While it eats your Swift action and has a range of 10ft less, you have your standard action to do whatever you like with (including a strike maneuver, manifesting a power, or just auto-attacking).  Additionally, this is Extraordinary and, more importantly, isn't limited to 1/day and still lets you use immediate actions or take AoO's after you do it.  The manifester level you lose is nothing to be concerned over, since you would have lost it anyway to get Dimension Spring Attack.

Also, one final point to make, is that you can turn a 5ft step into a 10ft step by making a DC40 Tumble check, as per Oriental Adventures.

[Nachofan99]

So you're saying that the rules text on pg 39-40 of ToB is absolutely meaningless? Even though it is exactly saying you can do exactly what the OP was talking about.  Got it.  Glad you didn't even need to look 

[Fadier]

snakeman830 is right about this (spring attack would be far better if you could take a standard action rather than only an attack action) but I am wondering what text you are specifically talking about in ToB.

Just a bit of clarification:
The PhB says you can use a standard action to make an attack action.
ToB maneuvers let you use a Standard/Full/etc action to initiate a maneuver which may result in an attack action.

The attack action is a result of what you did and you cannot interchange attack actions.

[Prime32]

Truthfully, it's best to not go deep at all into Elocator.  The benefits just don't outweigh the losses of three lousy feats and the lost manifester levels.  Yes, this does mean that you won't get the oddly hilarious dodge bonus to attack rolls.

Now, DSP Elocater...

Also no, you can't take a standard action as part of a Spring Attack. You can as part of a Flyby Attack though.

[Nachofan99]

I am at a loss.  Normally I would react to this very snarkily and throw in a ton of sarcasm, but with the new boards I've made a promise to at least try and operate above that kind of "method."

I have given the page numbers twice, but I will do so again.  Tome of Battle page 39 and 40.

Specifically, "Resolving a Maneuver or Stance" the two sections "Attack Rolls" and "Actions during a Maneuver".

Let's go through this step by step.

Under NORMAL circumstances, a character cannot take an kind of action in the middle of taking any other kind of action; Spring Attack feat specifically allows an exception to this normal situation.

So, are Manuevers "attack actions"? Yes they are.  The "Attack Rolls" section on pg. 39 says no less than 3 times that Maneuver are "attacks".

Now, re-re-read (because you did actually open the book and look at the rules text I cited instead of just not considering what I said at all, right?) the section in ToB called "Actions during a Maneuver".  Consider for a moment what "during" means.  Now, let's think about this carefully. 

Pulling the text directly from the source (I am going to use a Standard Action Maneuver like Stone Bones for the new example), it *would* say this:  "For example, the initiation action of the Stone Bones maneuver is 1 Standard Action. Thus as part of your Standard Action, you bring about the effect in the maneuver description.  In this case, the maneuver allows you to make an attack action with a number of additional benefits."

What additional benefits?  Being subject to Spring Attack for 1.

Think about it.  When you Spring Attack, you had to use a Standard Action to "Attack", you just do not have to be within reach to do so.  On top of the little AoO protection, THAT is the ability that Spring Attack is granting - the ability for actions to happen inside of other actions.  Maneuvers say they are attacks.

I don't see how this could be any clearer.

[Prime32]

So, are Manuevers "attack actions"? Yes they are.  The "Attack Rolls" section on pg. 39 says no less than 3 times that Maneuver are "attacks".

Well, it says the offensive ones are considered attacks.

Pulling the text directly from the source (I am going to use a Standard Action Maneuver like Stone Bones for the new example), it *would* say this:  "For example, the initiation action of the Stone Bones maneuver is 1 Standard Action. Thus as part of your Standard Action, you bring about the effect in the maneuver description.  In this case, the maneuver allows you to make an attack action with a number of additional benefits."

Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
When you use this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this attack hits, you gain DR 5/adamantine for 1 round.

Attack action =/= attack.
An attack action is a type of standard action which lets you make one attack. A full attack action is a type of full-round action lets you make multiple attacks, and not multiple attack actions. An attack of opportunity lets you make one attack.
You might as well say that running is a move action because you move.

[Nachofan99]

The term "Attack Action" has tons of rules text behind it, right?

That's why "Attack Action" appears 0 times in Rules Compendium, upwards of 2 times in the printed PHB (once in Spring Attack itself!) and in the SRD I can only find "Full Attack Action" with NO MENTION of "Attack Action".  Attacks are Standard actions.  Maneuvers are Standard Action attacks.  A=B.

But it seems obvious that "attack actions" is a phrase DEVOID of rules worthy text.

[Mooncrow]

The term "Attack Action" has tons of rules text behind it, right?

That's why "Attack Action" appears 0 times in Rules Compendium, upwards of 2 times in the printed PHB (once in Spring Attack itself!) and in the SRD I can only find "Full Attack Action" with NO MENTION of "Attack Action".  Attacks are Standard actions.  Maneuvers are Standard Action attacks.  A=B.

But it seems obvious that "attack actions" is a phrase DEVOID of rules worthy text.

Including in ToB.  but what Spring Attack actually says is: "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack"

And what ToB says is: "All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents (such as disarm and bull rush), are considered attacks." (page 39)

It's pretty clear they're talking about two different things.  What you're trying to do is conflate the use of "attack", which in this context is "All offensive combat actions" and "the attack action", and the rules simply don't support that. 

[Nachofan99]

What action type (Standard, Move, Full Round, Swift, Immediate) is "Attack Action"?  Where is "Attack Action" in the SRD?  Does an "Attack Action" provoke AoO's?  Am I denied "Attack Action" when I am under different kinds of status effects?

There is no rules text, or where there is ONE line of rules text, it is incomplete. 

[Mooncrow]

Hmm, let's go over to Table 8-2 for a list of Actions in Combat:

Standard Actions:
Attack(melee)
Attack(unarmed)
Attack(ranged)

Seems like it's listed there to me.

edit: also found in identical format in the Rules Compendium, page 8.

[snakeman830]

To refresh your memory:

An Attack Action is not an action type in and of itself, it's a particular thing that you can do with your Standard action and in certain other circumstances.

However, no maneuver has an initiation action of "1 attack action".  As such, they (strikes now, not all maneuvers) cannot be combined with spring attack, which in and of itself demands "1 full-round action" and only allows "1 attack action", not "1 standard action".  (Boosts are Swift actions and can be combined, but that is not what is being argued).

In other words, you NEED to have a standard (or full-round, depending) action to use strikes, but Spring Attack does not grant that, just like you can't cast a Harm spell during Spring Attack.

[weenog]

Nachofan99: You would be just as reasonable and correct saying that move action == standard action, because a move action is one of the things you can spend your standard action on.  Is that the kind of argument you feel comfortable getting behind?

[phaedrusxy]

Ignoring the whole ToB argument/derailment... here is a post from the old boards where I advocated combining Ardent and Elocater with a Cobra Strike monk dip to help meet the prereqs. Spring Attack is a defensive ability, not offensive. So you're not going to do well optimizing for offense with it in most circumstances. For a defensively optimized character, it could work OK, though.

[rot42]

There should be a decent Tashalatora build in this. Elocater loses so many manifester levels that you you might as well just focus on making manifesting a secondary feature of the character. Cobra Strike Monk (Unearthed Arcana 52) gives Dodge and Mobility as first and second level bonus feats, easing the feat tax a bit, improving saves, and granting Evasion. Two five foot steps in a round lets you set up for a charge every other round (Round 1: charge foe; Round 2: full attack, then step back 10'; Round 3: repeat; bonus points if you can make the standing jump for Leap Attack), which synergizes with the 1/round Opportunistic Strike. Psychic Warrior with Expansion + reach weapon gives you some wiggle room if they move. Ardent + Dimension Hop + Linked Power lets you do all that and buff on the fly while staying on-theme.

edit: oops, sorry phaedrusxy - I saw ToB in your post and stopped reading.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I'll vote Ardent too , to take care of all those lost MLs.
Rogue 1 /  Ardent 10 / Elocator X ... is juicy enough.

Carnivore's original Psion guide (and the old BG port of it) has a few Elocator builds.
Rogue 1 / Psion 18 / Elocator 1 ... probably at level 9 after a psyref.