Author Topic: Winged Creature  (Read 13240 times)

Offline RegalKain

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Winged Creature
« on: July 17, 2017, 12:46:13 AM »
Winged Creature




Prerequisites:
Any creature that has a CON Score. (There is an option for Constructs, as well as an option for Undead in wings of Fate.)

HD:d8
Level  Bab  Fort  Ref  Will  Feature
1        +0    +0    +2    +0     Wings of Fate, Aerial Grace +1
2        +1    +0    +3    +0     Aerial Grace +1, Made for the Sky
3        +2    +1    +3    +1     Aerial Grace +1, Winged Warrior

Skills: 2+Intelligence  Balance,Hide, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival
In addition a Winged Creature maintains all class skills from any class immediately preceding this one. (For instance if you were a Fighter first, you keep your Fighter Class Skills)

Proficiencies: The Winged Creature gains no new proficiencies. But is always considered proficient with any natural weapons it has.

Wings of Fate: At first level a Winged Creature chooses the types wings they receive. Once made this cannot be changed. In addition to each type of wings abilities you can also glide.

Gliding: A Winged Creature can use their wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Winged Creatures  glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability.A Winged Creature  can’t glide while carrying a medium or heavy load. If a Winged Creature becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, their wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The Winged Creature descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall.

Wings of Fate:
(click to show/hide)

Aerial Grace: The winged creature gains +1 Wisdom every level, you also gain +1 to whatever Attribute determines your Maneuverability each level. For a total of +3 Wisdom and +3 to your Maneuverability stat at level 3. In addition while in Flight a Winged Creature can elect to use their Maneuverability stat as their Attack and Damage modifier while using any wing attacks they possess. To determine what your Maneuverability stat will be for the purpose of this increase, read Wings of Fate and make your decision.

Maneuverability:   Attribute:
Perfect                  17
Good                     14
Average                11
Poor                      7
Clumsy                  6 Or Lower

Made for the Sky: While in flight, and having moved at least half of your fly speed in the current or previous round, you may add +1 per 3 HD to all attacks rolls and DCs of your abilities. At 10 HD you also add this bonus to all damage rolls, saving throws and physical skill checks you make so long as you fly half your speed in a straight line in the current or previous round. You must be at least 20 feet off the ground to use this.


Winged Warrior: A Winged creature learns new ways to fight in battle, the wings on their back unlock unnatural powers. It learns two of the following options that it may use as an immediate action unless otherwise noticed. After being used it must wait 2 turns before being able to use it again, but can use other option while waiting. Whenever the Winged creature gains a level it may trade one of those abilities for another. They all count as Ex abilities and can only be used while you’re flying and against opponents at the same height or lower than you.

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Comments:
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Pathfinder:
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« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 03:32:32 PM by RegalKain »

Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 04:17:47 AM »
images are not to hard, just get the link to the image and slap it between the following:

Code: [Select]
[img][/img]
Other then that it looks solid with a passing glance
Im really bad at what I do.
A+

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 10:10:26 AM »
The formatting is good, but I'll have to disagree with the solid.

First this is the winged creature template itself, and takes 4 levels to grant actual flight? Half-celestial and Half-fiendish granted it at 2nd level. Yes, as a rule of thumb monsters that are winged by default only gain flight around 4th level, but they're gaining other stuff in the meanwhile. End result being that if you want flight this makes for a really poor option. Thus flight should come at 2nd level latest, maybe with some HD cap where it only gives gliding that auto-upgrades to flight at 4 HD.

Second the raw damage is insane. Any quadruped gets an huge damage boost, but then winged monstrous spider? Winged Behir? And that's before you can turn movement straight into damage and you even made it stack with pounce in return for some non-lethal damage, aka the easiest type of damage to ignore. Why? Just why? This sucks at flying, and is instead screaming to make some abomination with a dozen talons.

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 01:02:48 PM »
Honestly I wanted to avoid a simple one-level dip and I have flight. If we're going for "Best ways to get flight" this is near the bottom of the list, as most other things give you far, far, far more then just flight. the Anaxim being near the top IMO as it gives you HD scaling perfect flight, as well as a metric ton of other absolutely insane things. I mostly didn't want to "break" tradition so to speak with giving it at less then 4HD though when I first started pondering it I had initially planned to do just that, however I changed it around a bit, you get gliding at level 1, and actual flight at level 3.

 I also changed it to state you only get a pair of talons, at the time of writing it (1 AM for me.) I hadn't actually thought of a winged spider getting 8 primary natural attacks (That each deal 1d8 if they are a Falcon) and I agree as that's absolutely insane, my apologies. I was more thinking a long the lines of humanoids and animals etc. Behirs aren't even eligible for it as they are Magical Beasts (Oddly the original Template in Savage Species excludes them, which is why I did though I'm not sure how much I agree with that reasoning.)  I changed the blowback damage to untyped (So it's lethal and can't be negated) Forgive me for that as When I wrote this up I was already struggling with converting things to 3.5 (I use Pathfinder) which has a lot more issues in the non-lethal department, where Pathfinder makes "Non lethal" much more dangerous to use in large amounts and it's somewhat harder to negate entirely. I personally think Dive Bomb makes it fairly worth sticking through the entire 4 levels, as it does infact give a rather hefty boost to damage (I wouldn't call it insane by any stretch seeing as you have to move at least half your fly speed before the attack, meaning most of the time you're only going to get 3-8d6 extra damage). Though with Pounce you'll be doing a great deal more I admit. So now that it if used with Pounce you deal yourself lethal damage do you think that's fair? Sure you're going to Alpha strike something for a metric ton of damage but, you'll also be taking a fairly hefty amount of damage yourself.

 Thoughts on the changes then?

Also switched up how your maneuverability is determined, leading more in line with the actual template.

Added another line into Aerial Grace as well.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 03:52:35 PM by RegalKain »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2017, 11:07:53 PM »
Really sleepy right now but random comments to this before hitting the bed:
-Limiting to two claws is good. But still 4 extra natural weapons over 2 levels and before you get actual flight.
-Right now this feels more like an half-bird template than actual winged creature. You pick the winged template and end up with two talon feet no matter what?
-What I feel it's really missing here are actually winged options. Your feet turn into claws, you gain sky mimetism, your eyes become super good in either day or night, but wings are virtually always the same. It really feels like a waste of the template's theme.

You could have stuff like different degrees of speed-maneverability. Like in one side big dragon wings that grant bigger speed with crappy maneuverability and in the other side insect wings with perfect maneuverability right away in return for really slow speed. Wings that can be used as shields, wings that can shoot razor-sharp feathers, wings that keep you warm, wings that can cause whirlwinds, wings with superior carrying capacity. Heck go loot pokemon's flying type for ideas like I did for celestial/fiendish creature. I may do it myself when I get the time.

Now Dive Bomb is actually wing-related. You could pust other aerial maneuver options. Barrel rolls, changing direction during charges, flying even in storms. But dive bomb still imba because the extra damage you're inflicting is bigger than the damage you're taking before taking in account you can multiply the extra damage you're inflicting, and this in a template that throws you 4 extra natural attacks.

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2017, 12:08:11 AM »
Hmmm I'll give it some thought to make it more wing related instead of bird related. Will try to come up with some interesting ideals as I can around work. :)

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2018, 11:43:19 PM »
Sorry to Necro, AND Double-Post, I finally found some time to re-visit this and hopefully make it not suck completely, I am dreadfully sorry that it took so long, I've had a lot of things happening IRL that have prevented me from taking the time to sit down and work on this. hopefully this does the template more justice, please let me know what you all think and if anything seems to strong/weak.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 02:17:31 PM »
Righto, definitely looking better than before but still some critiques:
-Wing damage should mention which size it is for.
-The maneuverability based in Dex kinda makes sense, however it's also clunky since several effects can change Dex not to mention quite non-standard, so I would strongly suggest just dropping it and assigning a  maneuverability to each type of wings (suggestion of poor for draconic, average for elemental, good for avian).
(click to show/hide)
-Finally the capstone feels kinda meh, just flat speed increase, so here's some pokemon-based options I talked about before:
(click to show/hide)

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 02:02:56 AM »
Righto, definitely looking better than before but still some critiques:
-Wing damage should mention which size it is for.
-The maneuverability based in Dex kinda makes sense, however it's also clunky since several effects can change Dex not to mention quite non-standard, so I would strongly suggest just dropping it and assigning a  maneuverability to each type of wings (suggestion of poor for draconic, average for elemental, good for avian).
(click to show/hide)
-Finally the capstone feels kinda meh, just flat speed increase, so here's some pokemon-based options I talked about before:
(click to show/hide)

Ok so, for what it's worth, I am rather attached to tying maneuverability to a stat mod. The reasoning behind tying it to a stat mod is because that's exactly how Winged Creature template does it, while admittedly it may be a bit wonky, that also means that being hit with ability drain/damage of some kind can make your flight screwy, which I think also helps balance the fact the template gives flight at such an early level compared to most other things. So I'd like to discuss the pros/cons further.

 I added Insect Wings and Leather wings, let me know what you think of the tweaks I made to them. As I tried to give them an ability in line with the type of wings they are, like I did with the others. May need some tweaking however.

I moved Made for the Sky to second level and tweaked what it did. Let me know what you think and if the wording is solid on that.

Winged Warrior: I quite like a lot of these, I currently have them so that they use Maneuverability mod instead of highest stat mod, going under the assumption that the template keeps the scaling maneuverability. I also tweaked a couple of the abilities, namely Fly Away, to exhaust you after you use it. The reasoning behind that is otherwise it makes you literally uncatchable as soon as you have it. As you move 10 miles a round and taking a full withdrawal action you're basically un touchable, while I understand it's at a later level when magic starts getting wonky I'd like the template to be considered "safe" even in a lower char-op campaign/setting. Let me know if you think that's ok or if you have issues with it. I was also a bit worried about the save or paralyzed but at 16HD you're either fine or dead in most cases anyway. Maybe make it a super high fort save to overcome or something, I'm not sure it just feels quite powerful right now.


Offline oslecamo

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 06:44:24 AM »
Righto, definitely looking better than before but still some critiques:
-Wing damage should mention which size it is for.
-The maneuverability based in Dex kinda makes sense, however it's also clunky since several effects can change Dex not to mention quite non-standard, so I would strongly suggest just dropping it and assigning a  maneuverability to each type of wings (suggestion of poor for draconic, average for elemental, good for avian).
(click to show/hide)
-Finally the capstone feels kinda meh, just flat speed increase, so here's some pokemon-based options I talked about before:
(click to show/hide)

Ok so, for what it's worth, I am rather attached to tying maneuverability to a stat mod. The reasoning behind tying it to a stat mod is because that's exactly how Winged Creature template does it, while admittedly it may be a bit wonky, that also means that being hit with ability drain/damage of some kind can make your flight screwy, which I think also helps balance the fact the template gives flight at such an early level compared to most other things. So I'd like to discuss the pros/cons further.
Ah, completely missed they're in the original monster too. Nevermind that then.

I added Insect Wings and Leather wings, let me know what you think of the tweaks I made to them. As I tried to give them an ability in line with the type of wings they are, like I did with the others. May need some tweaking however.
I don't know if your tweaks are the best ones. Echolocation is something that bats have indeed do have but not really tied to their wings.

Then having the insect wings have top damage feels weird since usually insect wings are quite fragile.

Here's some extra suggestions:
-Create a new type of wings, "mechanical" or "metal" or "crystal" wings for the high damage/anti-combat maneuver path.
-When thinking of special abilities insect wings have, "distracting" comes to mind. Be it the buzzing of flies and bees, or pretty butterfly wings, they distract those close, so inflict penalty on nearby enemy skill checks? Also another interesting fact is that some moths have evolved their wings to have special scales that are almost "invisible" to bat's echolocation, plus many insects have wings that camouphlage with their surroundings, so something to help with stealth would also fit better for insect wings I believe.
-As for leather wings, they're usually tied not only to bats but also demons and whatnot, so maybe some kind of lesser fear aura? Good for a scare?

I moved Made for the Sky to second level and tweaked what it did. Let me know what you think and if the wording is solid on that.
Bonus to attacks should be to attack rolls, bonus should have a type, you should need to fly in a straight line to gain it so you can't just gain it from flying in a small circle and probably at least 30 feet from the ground otherwise not very thematic to just hover a bit above the floor.

Winged Warrior: I quite like a lot of these, I currently have them so that they use Maneuverability mod instead of highest stat mod, going under the assumption that the template keeps the scaling maneuverability. I also tweaked a couple of the abilities, namely Fly Away, to exhaust you after you use it. The reasoning behind that is otherwise it makes you literally uncatchable as soon as you have it. As you move 10 miles a round and taking a full withdrawal action you're basically un touchable, while I understand it's at a later level when magic starts getting wonky I'd like the template to be considered "safe" even in a lower char-op campaign/setting. Let me know if you think that's ok or if you have issues with it. I was also a bit worried about the save or paralyzed but at 16HD you're either fine or dead in most cases anyway. Maybe make it a super high fort save to overcome or something, I'm not sure it just feels quite powerful right now.
Sounds good. Maybe add that you can't use Fly Away if you're already Exhausted and can only do basic movement while it's active.

Which reminds me, at several points you say "+Str" when it probably should be "+Str mod".
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 06:54:45 AM by oslecamo »

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2018, 08:13:13 AM »


I added Insect Wings and Leather wings, let me know what you think of the tweaks I made to them. As I tried to give them an ability in line with the type of wings they are, like I did with the others. May need some tweaking however.
I don't know if your tweaks are the best ones. Echolocation is something that bats have indeed do have but not really tied to their wings.

Then having the insect wings have top damage feels weird since usually insect wings are quite fragile.
Oddly, I agree. I gave them top damage because you listed them as 1d12, I thought it odd but was rather tired so didn't question it really. Swapped out echo location.
Here's some extra suggestions:
-Create a new type of wings, "mechanical" or "metal" or "crystal" wings for the high damage/anti-combat maneuver path.
-When thinking of special abilities insect wings have, "distracting" comes to mind. Be it the buzzing of flies and bees, or pretty butterfly wings, they distract those close, so inflict penalty on nearby enemy skill checks? Also another interesting fact is that some moths have evolved their wings to have special scales that are almost "invisible" to bat's echolocation, plus many insects have wings that camouphlage with their surroundings, so something to help with stealth would also fit better for insect wings I believe.
-As for leather wings, they're usually tied not only to bats but also demons and whatnot, so maybe some kind of lesser fear aura? Good for a scare?
Gave leathery wings a fear effect, changed insect wings, added Crystalline and Metal wings, will try to think of a way to add mechanical wings, drawing a blank presently however. Made Metal the high damage path.
I moved Made for the Sky to second level and tweaked what it did. Let me know what you think and if the wording is solid on that.
Bonus to attacks should be to attack rolls, bonus should have a type, you should need to fly in a straight line to gain it so you can't just gain it from flying in a small circle and probably at least 30 feet from the ground otherwise not very thematic to just hover a bit above the floor.
Fixed.
Winged Warrior: I quite like a lot of these, I currently have them so that they use Maneuverability mod instead of highest stat mod, going under the assumption that the template keeps the scaling maneuverability. I also tweaked a couple of the abilities, namely Fly Away, to exhaust you after you use it. The reasoning behind that is otherwise it makes you literally uncatchable as soon as you have it. As you move 10 miles a round and taking a full withdrawal action you're basically un touchable, while I understand it's at a later level when magic starts getting wonky I'd like the template to be considered "safe" even in a lower char-op campaign/setting. Let me know if you think that's ok or if you have issues with it. I was also a bit worried about the save or paralyzed but at 16HD you're either fine or dead in most cases anyway. Maybe make it a super high fort save to overcome or something, I'm not sure it just feels quite powerful right now.
Sounds good. Maybe add that you can't use Fly Away if you're already Exhausted and can only do basic movement while it's active.

Which reminds me, at several points you say "+Str" when it probably should be "+Str mod".
Fixed

Also added a Feat, not sure whether to keep it or not.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 09:06:09 AM by RegalKain »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 05:55:06 PM »
My bad, insect wingds was meant to be 1d2. :P

Also added a Feat, not sure whether to keep it or not.

The feat itself seems fine but needs better formating.

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 06:50:04 AM »
Tried to clean up the wording on the feat a little more to make it easier to understand, tell me if that reads ok, past that, any other issues that stand out?

Offline Archon

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2018, 02:26:34 AM »
Metal Wings seem to be missing a default ability score for manoeuvrability. Maybe str?

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2018, 01:29:32 PM »
Good catch thanks, tied it to Str as I intended.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2018, 06:26:33 AM »
For the formating I meant something that makes it stand out from the class itself like this:

(click to show/hide)

And the next bit should be spoilered too:

(click to show/hide)

Basically keep things that aren't actually class features distinct from the class features.

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2018, 02:47:10 AM »
Thank you for the clarification, done and done.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2018, 03:51:05 AM »
No further critiques, added!

Offline RegalKain

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2018, 07:54:51 PM »
Thought up something potential for Mechanical Wings.

Mechanical Wings: You gain a set of wings that are made of sprockets and gears and zipper doos. (The exacts are up to you.) In addition to letting you glide, you start with the ability to make wing attacks with them, these wing attacks deal 1d3+Str mod damage (for a medium creature.) But have a critical threat range of 19-20. At 2nd level your wings deal 1d3 19-20 x3, in addition they count as Masterwork (+2) tools for any profession, perform or craft check. At third level, you gain a flight speed equal to your base land speed, your Maneuverability is based on your Intelligence Modifier (Unlike other wings, you cannot change this with the feat listed below.) , you wings now deal 1d3+ str mod damage threat range of 18-20, with a x4 crit multiplier, in addition they count as Masterwork tools for any profession, perform or craft check, in addition to a single skill of your choosing. The bonus now scales, for +2 for every 5 HD. (For instance a level 5 character who has all three levels of Winged creature and Mechanical Wings, gains a +4 bonus to all associated checks.)

Thoughts?

Offline Versatility_Nut

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Re: Winged Creature
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2018, 09:09:23 PM »
I think Mechanical Wings is a bit too off-base, being that it's a mechanical augmentation instead of an anatomical feature. It'd be better under some prerequisite clause that a separate template-class meets easily by selecting something that grabs the heavy-duty tech stuff side to the Mechanical Wings. Then the Winged Creature option focuses on improving the flight characteristics rather than the skills, with the differences being to make use of the Weird Things like intelligence based instead of dexterity based, but still focusing mainly on flight rather than the utility stuff.