Winged Creature

[oslecamo]

I like the mechanical wings as a more utility option with boosted crits.

Don't see a problem with overlap with "mechanical augmentation" since well the original one already is a dog with feathery wings so clearly genetics were already thrown out of the window from the start. There's even already crystal and metal wings as new options too.

[Versatility_Nut]

I like the mechanical wings as a more utility option with boosted crits.

Don't see a problem with overlap with "mechanical augmentation" since well the original one already is a dog with feathery wings so clearly genetics were already thrown out of the window from the start. There's even already crystal and metal wings as new options too.

It's more that it makes the class increasingly less about flight, thus breaking the point of it as a flying class. As-is, it's already only one step away from just a list access mechanism, something I know you don't have a problem with, but I have a problem with it because it makes things into extremely breakable masses of options with very little, if not no, unifying themes.

[RegalKain]

I suppose I could see both sides of that. But as Oslec pointed out, with the addition of Metal Wings and Crystal wings etc. It's already a step removed from what it once was. I've actually been seriously considering changing the pre-reqs for it to anything with a Con score to sort of reflect that. As I'd like there to be an option for everyone.

In Winged Creature the unifying theme is literally Wings. It's not actually about flight (Though that's a side-effect), it is about the wings themselves. Which is kind of what we were going for with the various types of wing styles. If you feel the skill boosts are to potent, how would you suggest changing them?

[RegalKain]

Sorry about the double post.

Changed Pre-Reqs, added Mechanical wings (If there is an issue we can work on it and change it.) added stipulation that a Construct could take Mechanical Wings.

Edit: Now I kind of want to make a set of Incorporeal Wings. Maybe Energy Wings or something along those lines.


Energy Wings: You gain wings that are made of pure energy. (Their looks are up to you) They operate differently then other wings. In addition to letting you glide, at first level, you may make a single ranged touch attack. With a range of 15 feet, this attack deals 1d4 Force Damage (This damage does NOT scale for larger or smaller Winged creatures.), at second level you may make a Ranged Touch Attack with each wing as a standard action, in addition the Range is now 25 feet + 5 feet per 2 HD. At 3rd level you gain a flight speed equal to your base land speed, your maneuverability is tied to your Charisma, in addition as a standard action you may replicate the Magic Missile Spell, with the difference that you gain one missile per three caster levels, with no maximum amount of Missiles, and each missile also adds your Charisma Modifier to it's damage, if all missiles hit the same target, each subsequent magic missile only adds 0.5 Charisma Modifier instead. (Undead can take this set of wings, but no other sets of wings. Their Maneuverability is still tied to Charisma.)

[oslecamo]

I'm not a big fan of same spell spam, and I think that's where we're falling too far from the original concept. What do wings have to do with beam spam again? Plus it has horrible synergy with Winged Warrior as it is.

If you made them melee touch attacks that deal force damage that would be pretty interesting in my humble opinion, along with the Cha-based maneuverability, and Winged Warrior then offers options to make them ranged.

[RegalKain]

Hmmm I suppose that's fair. I also wanted to do something a bit different then "just another energy damage" type. I'll give them some thought, maybe figure out a way to better tie them into the undead/incorporeal theme of things. Lemme know if you have any good ideas along that route.

[oslecamo]

The energy wings don't hit as a touch attack but add Str mod to damage, the Force ones do hit as a Touch attack but don't add Str to damage.

You could also make the Force wings use Cha for attack rolls and later on add Cha to damage.

Force's also pretty special since basically nothing resists it and is also fully effective against ethereal enemies and whatnot.

[RegalKain]

On my phone so, I apologize for typos.

How about something like.

Energy Wings: You have tendrils of energy streaming from your back ( the exact are left up to you) in addition to letting you glide, you start with the ability to make two wing attacks these deal 1d4 force damage for a medium creature, however unlike normal wings you do not get your STR to damage and they target touch A.C.. At second level your wings natural reach is considered to be twice your reach ( so 10 feet for a medium creature) in addition you now have a fly speed equal to your base land speed, your maneuverability is tied to your Charisma modifier. At third level you may now add half your Charisma  modifier to the damage you deal with your wings and use the better of STR DEX or CHA  for  your attack rolls., in addition once per encounter per 4 HD as a full round action, you can make an attack against each creature within the reach of your wings at your full attack bonus. These attacks must be made with your wings.


Edit: these would also have the undead caveat

[oslecamo]

Looking much better, would just suggest swapping the 1/4 HD for a 1dX cooldown.

[RegalKain]

Looking much better, would just suggest swapping the 1/4 HD for a 1dX cooldown.

The per HD is tied.in line with the others. I worry about giving it a cool down because thus will scale rapidly with bigger creatures. Titanic/Winged for instance. I feel like limiting it per encounter helps alleviate it at early levels where raw damage is.more dangerous. If we nix  the per HD and make it a standard ability what would the cool down be? 1d4 seems a bit low but 1d6 on the high  end is most of a combat anyway.

[oslecamo]

I like 1d4+1, makes sure you need to wait one round doing something else but still caps at 5.

Speaking of which the draconic wings may be better with cooldown too.

"X/encounter" just feels weird since at start is 1/encounter and later on may as well be at-will, and "encounter" isn't even a precise time frame in 3.X.

[RegalKain]

I like 1d4+1, makes sure you need to wait one round doing something else but still caps at 5.

Speaking of which the draconic wings may be better with cooldown too.

"X/encounter" just feels weird since at start is 1/encounter and later on may as well be at-will, and "encounter" isn't even a precise time frame in 3.X.

When I get home I will change some of em tonround based. Maybe all of an. Maybe make a feat that lowers the cool down of wing abilities by 1 round or something this way there is a feat investment at least. Also I'm used to how Spheres of Might does it. Where an Encounter is any time the DM requires initiative to be done.

[RegalKain]

In retrospect the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to come to a better solution.

 How do you think the balance would be if anytime you used a Flourish ability (Such as the leather fear, the dragon spell deflect or the energy wing AoE attack.) it goes on a 1d3 cool down. It's number of times per encounter is still tied to HD however. I personally feel that strikes a good balance between the two. Then you know for sure you can only use it every other round at an absolute best end game. (You just keep rolling 1s) Otherwise it's up to 3.

[oslecamo]

I like 1d4+1, makes sure you need to wait one round doing something else but still caps at 5.

Speaking of which the draconic wings may be better with cooldown too.

"X/encounter" just feels weird since at start is 1/encounter and later on may as well be at-will, and "encounter" isn't even a precise time frame in 3.X.

When I get home I will change some of em tonround based. Maybe all of an. Maybe make a feat that lowers the cool down of wing abilities by 1 round or something this way there is a feat investment at least. Also I'm used to how Spheres of Might does it. Where an Encounter is any time the DM requires initiative to be done.

What if it's a surprise round and initiative hasn't been rolled yet? What if it's a quite long battle like a chase? What if the party wants to use it ouside of combat? Besides hoping players to refer to definitions from 3rd party products made for another system is really stretching it.

In retrospect the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to come to a better solution.

 How do you think the balance would be if anytime you used a Flourish ability (Such as the leather fear, the dragon spell deflect or the energy wing AoE attack.) it goes on a 1d3 cool down. It's number of times per encounter is still tied to HD however. I personally feel that strikes a good balance between the two. Then you know for sure you can only use it every other round at an absolute best end game. (You just keep rolling 1s) Otherwise it's up to 3.

Having two resource mechanics for the same ability just doesn't sound good at all.

I personally prefer the cooldown because it avoids spam. D&D (or any game really) is more fun when you can't just repeat the same trick non-stop (even if you eventually burn off) and instead need to cycle over stuff.

[Nanshork]

I feel the need to say that per encounter abilities are already in these monster classes in the form of maneuvers.

[oslecamo]

But maneuvers all have refresh mechanics that allow them to be potentially used with no limit during any encounter as long as you can keep refreshing.

[RegalKain]

I suppose this is where we just have played at different tables. As both myself and the other DMs in my group run an encounter as "Any time combat has ended, or a trap/puzzle has been disabled and your are safe.) Basically any time you could safely "Take 10" you're not in an encounter. The chase thing is a bit odd for some, for us as long as you have the trail you're in an encounter. For the sake of it's your rodeo, I'll make it a round based cool down, but I may discuss it with the other DMs and roll it either way.


Energy Wings: You have tendrils of energy streaming from your back ( the exact are left up to you) in addition to letting you glide, you start with the ability to make two wing attacks these deal 1d4 force damage for a medium creature, however unlike normal wings you do not get your STR to damage and they target touch A.C.. At second level your wings natural reach is considered to be twice your reach ( so 10 feet for a medium creature) in addition you now have a fly speed equal to your base land speed, your maneuverability is tied to your Charisma modifier. At third level you may now add half your Charisma  modifier to the damage you deal with your wings and use the better of STR DEX or CHA  for  your attack rolls., in addition once every 1d4+1 rounds, as a full round action, you can make an attack against each creature within the reach of your wings at your full attack bonus. These attacks must be made with your wings.

Does that look satisfactory?

[oslecamo]

It is satisfactory, thank you for your understanding. And how you play at your own table is your own business, but indeed I'll rather prefer the version present here is something I would allow at my table.

[Nanshork]

But maneuvers all have refresh mechanics that allow them to be potentially used with no limit during any encounter as long as you can keep refreshing.

Potentially yes, but it means that hopefully you have an idea of what defines an encounter (at least at your table).   

[RegalKain]

It is satisfactory, thank you for your understanding. And how you play at your own table is your own business, but indeed I'll rather prefer the version present here is something I would allow at my table.

Yup I understand completely. I did add a blurb about it in the Comments section if that's ok, I also added another feat (Hopefully with the proper formatting.) Let me know if the Feat is ok, I'm usually ok with Feats giving some what potent bonuses because they are a fairly limited resource, and I think I worded it in such a way as to make it not broken or over powering. I added Energy Wings as posted in my last post, in addition I changed the other Flourish effects to be a round cooldown system instead of a per encounter system. At this point I think it's mostly done. Unless in some made fever rambling at 5 AM I think of another interesting or awesome set of wings.