Uchiha and Rinnegan Bloodlines as... Bloodlines [P.E.A.C.H]

[YuweaCurtis]

So yea, I'm a nerd...

Uchiha Bloodline

Level	Major Bloodline Abilities
1	Move Silently +2
2	Pool
3	Dexterity +1
4	First Tomoe (Taijutsu)
5	Influence Affinity +2
6	Second Tomoe (Ninjutsu)
7	Jump +2
8	Third Tomoe (Genjutsu)
9	Wisdom +1
10	Mangekyou Sharingan
11	Influence Affinity +4
12	Amaterasu
13	Climb +2
14	Susanoo (Skeletal)
15	Constitution +1
16	Susanoo (Musclebound)
17	Influence Affinity +6
18	Susanoo (Armored)
19	Bluff +2
20	Eternal Mangekyou, Susanoo (Perfected)

Pool: In order to support the powers and abilities of their bloodline, they naturally have a bigger pool of metaphysical energy than average. For the purposes of determining spell slots and/or power points you are considered to have +2 to your key ability score. If you have an essentia pool, add an additonal 2 to it.
 
First Tomoe [Taijutsu] (Ex): The first stage of the Sharingan activates, given you an increased ability to perceive movements. You gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC and competence bonus to attack, +1 for each five character levels.

Influence Affinity: Uchiha are skilled manipulators, especially of those already under the influence of their abilities. They gain this bonus on interaction checks with anyone who has failed a saving throw to one of their abilities within two rounds or are currently under the influence of them.
 
Second Tomoe [Ninjutsu] (Su): The Sharingan has the ability to perceive the flows of energies which gives you a better understanding elements. Pick a single element. For that purpose of for the purposes of using that element your caster/manifester/initiator (or the like) level is considered one higher.
 
Third Tomoe [Genjutsu] (Su): You can use any of your mind affecting effects such as special abilities and spells as Gaze attacks. However, action to use, number of targets, range and DC are based off the original ability. None costly material components aren’t needed, but you must have any expensive materials on your person (not extra dimensional space). In the latter case, they don’t need to have it in hand.
 
Mangekyou Sharingan (Sp): By either pushing their powers to the limits or going through extreme stress, the Uchiha has unlocked the highest tier of their doujutsu. Albeit a unstable form. It is able to be activated for a number of rounds per day equal to character level that need not be continuous, past that they take 2 Constitution damage a round. Choose a spell, power, or maneuver of 4th level. You can use it once every other round while Mangekyou is active, using your character level as caster/manifestor/iniator level and Charisma for DC.

Amaterasu (Sp): While Mangekyou is active the user can now use Produce Flame and Control Flame, using their character level as caster/manifester level. The range of Produce Flame becomes that of Control Flame. When using it against a creature they can make a Reflex save. If successful they take no damage and can take a 5 foot step. In this case the next thing within range is hit. Either way, things hit with it are sent on fire as well.
                                                       
Susanoo [Skeletal] (Su): Bring their energy to the peak and willing it to take on a physical form, they begin to be able to form a giant know as Susanoo. At this stage then can only form the ribs and a single skeletal arm, which forms around you. It has and provides an Armor Bonus equal to ½ your HD, DR equal to ¼ HD, and 10 HP per HD. Its size is equal to the user’s and it has Powerful Build. It has a single martial melee weapon sized for a creature larger. It uses your base stats to attack, as well as your actions. Mangekyou must be activated for this to be used and each round it’s being use counts as a round against the total time Mangekyou can be active.
 
Susanoo [Musclebound] (Su): The Susanoo grows further defined, the skeletal structure of the torso completely and being grown over with muscle. At this stage it can either share your square or be adjacent to you. It loses Powerful Build, and becomes Large. It also has a head and both arms as well, though it only perceives what you do. It has a +2 bonus to Strength. You may allow other to stand within it, otherwise it counts as occupied space. If you are a larger size, adjust the Susanoo's size accordingly.
 
Susanoo [Armored] (Su): Finally, it is properly ready for combat, becoming armored and regaining Powerful Build . It is still only the torso however. It blocks line of effect to anything within it unless they want to be effected. It also gets another weapon of your choice, one which you must be proficient in. The initial weapon is considered to have a +1 enhancement bonus, while the second one has a +1 enhancement bonus +1 for each five character levels.
                                         
Eternal Mangekyou (Su): If the Uchiha has managed not to die by now, the peak of their power stabilizes. Mangekyou Sharingan has no limitation on activation, but the SLA gained from it gains a cooldown of 1d4+1 rounds. Susanoo now can be maintain for a round per character level, though these rounds need not be continuous. 2 Constitution damage can be taken to extend this by a round.

Susanoo [Perfected] (Su): Finally, the completed form! It loses Powerful Build for good and becomes Huge. At this point it has a full body and the user and anyone they allow (within carrying limits, of course) can travel around in its helmet. Also, you can cause it to “Clad” itself to other creatures and constructs. In this state it manifests as armor around the chosen target, which must be willing. The target gains half its Armor bonuses, it’s full DR, and half its ability scores on top of their own as well as Susanoo’s weapons. Said target has to be Huge or smaller, and of course similar bonus don’t stack with one another.
 

Rinnegan Bloodline

Level	Major Bloodline Abilities
1	Knowledge (The Planes) +2
2	Rinnegan
3	Wisdom +1
4	Six Paths
5	-
6	Six Paths
7	Knowledge (Arcana) +2
8	Six Paths
9	Dexterity +1
10	Six Paths
11	-
12	Six Paths
13	Diplomacy +2
14	Six Paths
15	Charisma +1
16	Six Paths
17	-
18	Six Paths
19	Intimidate +2
20	Six Paths

Rinnegan (Ex): The namesake of the power, this directly refers to the doujutsu itself. Whenever you would have some sort of duplicate, summon, familiar, or some other creature with a similar connection you can perceive things from their eyes as well as your own.

Six Paths (Su): The core powers of a user of Rinnegan, they are based off six paths of reincarnation, the Samsara. At each level this is marked they can choose one ability from the list below.

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Animal Path - Obtaining this path allows you to summon augmented creatures designed to help one in combat. Once per day they can cast Summon Monster of a level equal to half their character level (minimum 1st). Caster level is equal to character as well. If they have the ability to cast Summon Monster of any level, they can choose for the durations of any Summon Monster spells to become 1 minute per level instead of gaining it as an SLA.

Asura Path (Weaponry) - The path of war, one of the best ways to have the advantage in battle is to have the best weapons. And why not have said weapons be pretty much at the tips of your hands? This gives access to Arsenal Weapons of a rank 1/5 your charcter level (minimum 1). They also have 5 energy per level, and Reactor equal to 1/5 character level. They can form these weapons from sections of their body as a move action, up to two at a time. These weapons can be put away as a free action. If you would have access to higher level Arsenal from another ability, you can access one level higher of Arsenal for this ability. This cannot exceed that other Arsenal.
If Arsenal isn't used, you can merely recreate an simple or martial weapon. Two handed weapons are reoutfitted to be able to be wielded in one hand and they autofill any ammunition.

Asura Path (Equipment) - Furthering the path of war, one must have the proper equipment to support them in battle. This allow them to internaly create and use one Accessorie of an Arsenal level avaiable to them from Asura Path (Weaponry). This takes a standard action.

Deva (Repel) - The highest path a human can hope to be born into, the Rinnegan's access to it give the ability to control the forces of attraction. Require 10th level, this ability allows you to fling objects away. Treat this as a special ranged Bullrush Attack except instead of physically overpowering your opponent you move them out of sheer repulsive force. You do not gain bonuses for size or moving, and you use Charisma instead of Strength. You gain a +8 bonus to this check. If you push an opponent into a wall or other unmovable object, it takes 1d6 damage per 5ft of remaining movement. A creature moved this way falls prone provided they moved at least five feet. This can be use at a range of 10 feet per character level on a single target,  a 5 feet per level burst, or a 5 foot per level cone. In the two later cases you make a single check against opposed check of any creatures and unattended objects.

Deva Path (Attract) - The highest path a human can hope to be born into, the Rinnegan's access to it give the ability to control the forces of attraction. Require 10th level, this pull things towards you. Treat this as a special ranged Bullrush Attack except instead of physically overpowering your opponent and pushing them, you bring them towards you out of sheer attractive force. You do not gain bonuses for size or moving, and you use Charisma instead of Strength. You gain a +8 bonus to this check. If you pulled an opponent into a wall or other unmovable object, it takes 1d6 damage per 5ft of remaining movement. A creature moved this way falls prone provided they moved at least five feet. This can be use at a range of 10 feet per character level on a single target,  a 5 feet per level burst, or a 5 foot per level cone. In the two later cases you make a single check against opposed check of any creatures and unattended objects.

Deva Path (Shinra Tensei): This requires Deva Path (Repel) and (Attract). It takes the control of the force of attraction and turns it into a weaponized blast centering on you. This aggresively forces everything away from you, dealing 1D6 force damage per character level in a radius of 10 feet per character level. Anything not sufficiently rooted down will be moved to the extreme of this range. Creatures can attempt a Reflex save for halve damage. This deals full damage to objects. Afterwards you will be dazed for a round and be unable to use Deva Path abilities for a minute.

Deva Path (Chibaku Tensei) - ???
This requires Deva Path (Repel) and (Attract).
This requires a standard action and has a cooldown of 2 minutes...

Human Path - The path of being human, it gives the ability to have some insight into the thoughts of others. You can use Detect Thoughts at will, though with some changes. You can only target one person, and you must maintain physical contact. However, you skip right to the 3rd round of benefits (reading surface thoughts).

Naraka Path (Punishment) - This path allows you to summon a form of one of the judges of hell which takes the appearance of a head which is a gate. This allows you to pass judgement on creature 1 per day for each 5 character levels, but requires 10th level. As a standard action the Outer Path can grab a creature within 20 feet. You can ask it a question, at which point two things can happen. If it answers honestly it will have to make a Will (using character level and Charisma) or become exhausted. If it lies, it must make a Fortitude save or die. It is unaware of the outcome, save for an inkling it really shouldn't lie. Only one creature can be affected by this use of the Naraka Path at once and the Path itself must be summoned as a move action. It can be dismissed as a swift or move action.

Naraka Path (Restoration) - This path allows you to summon a form of one of the judges of hell which takes the appearance of a head which is a gate. Doing this allows you to bring back the souls of the dead, but this is only a part of their energy and not the whole thing unfortunately. However you can use this to restore almost any damage a creature may have taken. Either by allowing a creature into "Outer Path" or placing one into it, they can gain 1D6 HP per character level. It must stay inside for one full round. At level 15 this can be used to replicate the effects of a Regenerate spell instead, in which case the target must remain in it for 5 rounds. Only one creature can be affected by this use of the Naraka Path at once and the Path itself must be summoned as a move action. It can be dismissed as a swift or move action.

Preta Path - The path of those cursed to spend the afterlife as a ever hungry ghost. This allows you to absorb magic and use it for yourself. As at standard action you can make a touch attack against someone capable of casting magic or with spell like abilities. If they cast spells an fail a Will save they lose their lowest leveled spell slot, while if a spell like ability they will lose the lowest from those. You gain 5 HP per level of spell lost, if at max this will be gained instead as temporary HP. The cap on this is five times your level. If you instead maintain grip for a full round, you instead remove the highest level available to them.

[YuweaCurtis]

Okay it should be done now. I misclicked while testing charts earlier.

[SorO_Lost]

I see hints of those PMs in there but first thought, Uchiha is massively OP and needs some clarifications.

Uchiha Bloodline

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* Pool's +25% Slots is pretty excessive on it's own and shows up as a minor benefit for a single level trade off if you use it as a Minor Bloodline.
* Blue-style spell cloning is a really hard thing to balance, the StP Erudite delay progression by an entire Spell Level and requires you to nonlethally beat the target first and it's still consider to be even more powerful than the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. Yours just keeps going and it doesn't even require a 17~20 level investment, plus it provides extra Known Slots too.
* "None costly material components aren’t needed, but you must have any expensive materials on your person (not extra dimensional space)" Typo fix.
* Ironically, Amaterasu is pretty weak. Take 2 Constitution damage every turn to deal 1d6+5 damage, I'd rather just spam the 4th level Spell/Power instead.
* Is Susanoo supposed to be a separate entity and if so what benefit is there to even attacking it?
* Susanoo's Perfected Form, I clad my self to double my Str bonus which is quite a jump from the earlier +2 increase or the Bloodline standard of a grand total of +1 Str.
* Clarifications, what if a Large Character takes this? Are Mangekyou's replicated Spell/Powers SLAs/PLAs? Third Tomoe affect Spells?

Rinnegan Bloodline

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* Deva, same problem as any freebie Telekinesis.
* Asura, Ols's mecha content is horrendously unbalanced, consider the best blasting spells deal 1d6 per CL and maybe offer a save for half damage or a secondary effect. At level 5 Asura gives you a ranged attack that hits an area for 21d4 (52.5 avg dmg) that also halves their Dex/Dodge bonuses to AC and imposes a -4 penalty to Fort/Will and still attempts to Trip them and it gives a +6 unnamed bonus to the Opposed Check. No one can actually use this Bloodline without a massive campaign overhaul or the proper balance fixes. And the Accessory choice has much of the same problem except it's also confusing, can I get an escape pod for my body?
* Preta, it has the same problem of freebie Spells.
* Naraka Path?

Overall the content is a little better scaled, it's just you thought to outsource weapons.

[oslecamo]

* Asura, Ols's mecha content is horrendously unbalanced, consider the best blasting spells deal 1d6 per CL and maybe offer a save for half damage or a secondary effect. At level 5 Asura gives you a ranged attack that hits an area for 21d4 (52.5 avg dmg) that also halves their Dex/Dodge bonuses to AC and imposes a -4 penalty to Fort/Will and still attempts to Trip them and it gives a +6 unnamed bonus to the Opposed Check. No one can actually use this Bloodline without a massive campaign overhaul or the proper balance fixes. And the Accessory choice has much of the same problem except it's also confusing, can I get an escape pod for my body?

First, the arsenal is unlocked at 1/5 level, meaning something like the 21-tube missile launcher only becomes available at level 10.  And casters don't dominate with damage spells in 3.X, they dominate with spells that beat you regardless of what your HP actually is.

Second:

  And do you know what the irony is? It's not that you can steal a lv7 gun, but no one is going to run around stealing guns in the first place like you imagine them to because your guns suck so bad the only thing PCs are going to steal is a melee weapon, if it's better, and keep it forever.

By your own words my ranged arsenal weapons sssuuuccckkkk, you went on pretty long tirades about it not so long ago.

[SorO_Lost]

By your own words my ranged arsenal weapons sssuuuccckkkk, you went on pretty long tirades about it not so long ago.

Yep, over a year ago I compared your horrendously overpowered melee weapons to your simply overpowered ranged weapons and so I suppose there might be a lesson here: Don't over compensate.
(besides, I just picked the one with the most dice out of lv2 arsenal which simply happened to be a ranged area weapon and you created a lv5 wire hack that spams slow/daze/dominate every round too and the save dc is based off str)

He's better off simply using Modern's weapons.

[YuweaCurtis]

Uchiha

• Made it 10%
• Keep going? I suppose I should put an upper limit to level? Also they still have to have access to the level in the first place. Made the extra slots 10%, though I may just bork that part all together.
• Thanks
• At this point I knew I was already doing too much. Also I guess I didn't want to think about it too hard for ease and so it wouldn't get bad. Also I'll point out that the SLA can only be used every other turn as I noticed you would be exceeding the uses of a dedicated caster.
• It's technically a seperate entity, but it still takes your action to do anything. You have to get through it to get to the one using it (unless they aren't standing in it, of course).
• Eh ya, I'll just make you unable to Clad yourself, which was actually my original thought (Susanoo armor though...).
• I'll add a clause to the first part of Susanoo about size. Clarifed Mangekyou. Um, I meant any sort of abilites, but what's the best way to say that?

Rinnegan

• I could use suggestions on Deva in general.
• Eh, I prefer to use Osl's but I put something in there as a variation.
• Well, it's supposed to be able to drain... Not sure how to handle that honestly.
• Yea, realized I forgot that when I got offline yesterday. It wasn't in my list and I miscounted. I'll add that in after I take care of the other issues. It's gonna be healing that requires the target to sit in the "Outer Path" for at least a round.

Added types to the abilities.

[SorO_Lost]

Probably just bork all the %s, go for something like +1 CL to [Fire] Spells or something. Remember, CL bumps not only make something more powerful, and longer lasting, and more likely to ignore SR , but over time they improve efficiency as well. Like a CL2 often deals twice as much damage as compared to CL1 which means you need half the Slots to deal the same. As for the wording on the Gaze, idk maybe "all effects such as special abilities and spells"

An ideas on Deva? Here is the original you asked about, no lv12 bonus through because like I said it is incomplete work.

Shinra Tensei (deva path)
Range: Short. Target: One creature or several (see text). Save: No, see text.
The caster violently shoves a single creature or object away from him. Treat this as a special ranged Bullrush Attack except instead of psychically overpowering your opponent you move them out of sheer magical ability. You do not gain bonuses for size or moving, and you use your primary caster ability (wisdom for dojutsu users) instead of strength. You gain a +8 bonus to this check and Dojutsu Users receive additional class related bonuses (see ninja training). If you push an opponent into a wall or other unmovable object, it takes 1d6 damage per 5ft of remaining movement. A creature moved this way falls prone provided they moved at least five feet.
Scalable 4th: Shinra Tensei can be used as an Cone shaped area attack with the range of 5ft per caster level. You make a single bull rush check and any creatures and unattended objects in the area make their opposed checks against this value.
Scalable 8th: Shinra Tensei can be used as an aura burst attack center on the caster with the range of 5ft per caster level. Like the cone shaped ability, you make a single bull rush check against multiple targets.
Scalable 16th: You can use Shinra Tensei's single target effect as an Immediate Action.
Special: Instead of pushing creatures and objects away you can instead pull them towards you. Creatures and objects immediately stop in an adjacent square even if they should move further. Creatures moved this way provoke an attack of opportunity from you for their movement when they stop or leave a threatened square as normal. This ability is referred to as Bansho Tenin.

And you could always create adaptions, like scale Asura's weapons to Modern's PL5 and note that in SWR games they can instead select Arsenal or something.

And it's nice you came back in and patched some stuff so fast.

[oslecamo]

Eh, I prefer to use Osl's but I put something in there as a variation.

The option to take regular D&D weapons instead looks good.

Well, it's supposed to be able to drain... Not sure how to handle that honestly.

Recover HP and maybe gain some temp HP with cap if already full healed?

By your own words my ranged arsenal weapons sssuuuccckkkk, you went on pretty long tirades about it not so long ago.

Yep, over a year ago I compared your horrendously overpowered melee weapons to your simply overpowered ranged weapons

Really?

Using Gargantuan, 30 Str/Dex, for the opposing DR without Arsenal you can reach 35 so let's go with that.

A) A Greatsword deals 24d6+10 (94 avg), it costs 6,400gp but while Enhancement costs don't rescale making a Masterwork version costs 44,800 so let's just stick to that normal figure. Assuming three attacks per round because maybe you're looking at taking lv14 that's 118 after DR.
B) Focusing on Mech weapons, you can take Mightyx8, Pairedx1, & Rending. This gives you a double 4d8+26 (44 avg) per attack action, or 156 post DR after six attacks. More attacks, more damage, but costs several upgrade points.
C) For Heavy let's look at the Antiship Beam Sword which is one of the most powerful weapons and as lv3 can be Linked and assuming Mightyx8, you get two attacks of 9d12+36 (94.5) for 119 which comes out pretty close to the cheap Greatsword but has Power/Concussive/Disarming making it a better choice unless you need to trade those Mech properties away for gear-related Arsenal.

Seems fair right? Well let's look at Ranged. A +10 Longbow costs 140,800gp so instead let's just go with a Heavy Repeater for 16d8 (72 avg) which is three attacks and 111 after DR. Built-Ins via Tank become 3d8+26 (39.5 avg) or 129 after DR. And for Arsenal we have two choices, Linked lv3 comes to 3d6+26 (36.5 avg) or 9 after DR and none-Linked comes to 4d6+26 (40 avg) or 15 post DR. Even moving back to a Heavy Railgun for 12d10+36 (102 avg) even after post Rending DR that's only 84. Ranged Arsenal just isn't worth using.

By your own words, ranged arsenal's more worthless than plain crossbows, and melee weapons were "fair". That is not the meaning of overpowered.

And indeed you directly proposed to greatly buff the damage of all arsenal weapons. You wanted stuff like 3d6 steel knife and 8d4 M13 shotgun, yet now complain that SRWd20's 1d8 steel knife and 1d10 M13 shotgun are the OP ones.

and so I suppose there might be a lesson here: Don't over compensate.

Everybody else was pretty happy with the new ranged arsenal.

[SorO_Lost]

Well, it's supposed to be able to drain... Not sure how to handle that honestly.

Recover HP and maybe gain some temp HP with cap if already full healed?

Maybe, I used the Spell-Warp Template (SR blocked spells turned into buffs) for ideas on mine and simple added Touch Attacks.

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Really?

Yeah really, thanks for quoting that too. I mean, a "Gargantuan" Greatsword actually deals 6d6 and that post was about the the repercussions of your extended mecha-scale (sic "mecha gargantuan") allowed larger weapons to be used and how imbalanced the choices were since you pulled the numbers out of thin air. And I recall that's when Size bonuses were added to Arsenal too, because your fix was to add another +4d6 to that Anti-Ship Sword example. But you still quoted the post as support and demonstrated how oblivious you are to the scale of things and how little attention you spare towards the context of the things you even reach out to support for.

Sort of like how you quoted my examples of how you can create variances of rescaling Arsenal to 3d6 plus 1d6 per level by trading dice for weapon properties or bonuses to attack rolls and tried to claim it buffed everything. So for example the proposed 1st level deals 3d6 instead of your Chest Missile's 3d10+Bullrush+Disarm, or the proposed 6th level Tkiv deals about 18% of your Sledgehammer Missiles with reduced range, usage, attack bonus, and no control effects. I don't know what's wrong with you to even make you think the proposal is some kind of buff but sure enough that's how you perceive things which I guess explains quite a bit.

[YuweaCurtis]

Probably just bork all the %s, go for something like +1 CL to [Fire] Spells or something. Remember, CL bumps not only make something more powerful, and longer lasting, and more likely to ignore SR , but over time they improve efficiency as well. Like a CL2 often deals twice as much damage as compared to CL1 which means you need half the Slots to deal the same. As for the wording on the Gaze, idk maybe "all effects such as special abilities and spells"

An ideas on Deva? Here is the original you asked about, no lv12 bonus through because like I said it is incomplete work.

Shinra Tensei (deva path)
Range: Short. Target: One creature or several (see text). Save: No, see text.
The caster violently shoves a single creature or object away from him. Treat this as a special ranged Bullrush Attack except instead of psychically overpowering your opponent you move them out of sheer magical ability. You do not gain bonuses for size or moving, and you use your primary caster ability (wisdom for dojutsu users) instead of strength. You gain a +8 bonus to this check and Dojutsu Users receive additional class related bonuses (see ninja training). If you push an opponent into a wall or other unmovable object, it takes 1d6 damage per 5ft of remaining movement. A creature moved this way falls prone provided they moved at least five feet.
Scalable 4th: Shinra Tensei can be used as an Cone shaped area attack with the range of 5ft per caster level. You make a single bull rush check and any creatures and unattended objects in the area make their opposed checks against this value.
Scalable 8th: Shinra Tensei can be used as an aura burst attack center on the caster with the range of 5ft per caster level. Like the cone shaped ability, you make a single bull rush check against multiple targets.
Scalable 16th: You can use Shinra Tensei's single target effect as an Immediate Action.
Special: Instead of pushing creatures and objects away you can instead pull them towards you. Creatures and objects immediately stop in an adjacent square even if they should move further. Creatures moved this way provoke an attack of opportunity from you for their movement when they stop or leave a threatened square as normal. This ability is referred to as Bansho Tenin.

And you could always create adaptions, like scale Asura's weapons to Modern's PL5 and note that in SWR games they can instead select Arsenal or something.

And it's nice you came back in and patched some stuff so fast.

Ninjtusu: I suppose if I can't figure out a good copy system I will do the +1 to spells with Fire descriptor... I mean I was original going to do that and make Enton Empower them.

Shinra Tensei: It looks interesting, I'll look over it more closly somethime in the next day.

Asura: I'm not really familar with D20 Modern and it's not really what I'm going to use. So it's on the backburner but I will eventually change it. And didn't I technically make an adaption already?

Eh, I usually do stuff pretty fast unless I just can't get online or I have a brain fart.

Eh, I prefer to use Osl's but I put something in there as a variation.

The option to take regular D&D weapons instead looks good.

Well, it's supposed to be able to drain... Not sure how to handle that honestly.

Recover HP and maybe gain some temp HP with cap if already full healed?

By your own words my ranged arsenal weapons sssuuuccckkkk, you went on pretty long tirades about it not so long ago.

Yep, over a year ago I compared your horrendously overpowered melee weapons to your simply overpowered ranged weapons

Really?

Using Gargantuan, 30 Str/Dex, for the opposing DR without Arsenal you can reach 35 so let's go with that.

A) A Greatsword deals 24d6+10 (94 avg), it costs 6,400gp but while Enhancement costs don't rescale making a Masterwork version costs 44,800 so let's just stick to that normal figure. Assuming three attacks per round because maybe you're looking at taking lv14 that's 118 after DR.
B) Focusing on Mech weapons, you can take Mightyx8, Pairedx1, & Rending. This gives you a double 4d8+26 (44 avg) per attack action, or 156 post DR after six attacks. More attacks, more damage, but costs several upgrade points.
C) For Heavy let's look at the Antiship Beam Sword which is one of the most powerful weapons and as lv3 can be Linked and assuming Mightyx8, you get two attacks of 9d12+36 (94.5) for 119 which comes out pretty close to the cheap Greatsword but has Power/Concussive/Disarming making it a better choice unless you need to trade those Mech properties away for gear-related Arsenal.

Seems fair right? Well let's look at Ranged. A +10 Longbow costs 140,800gp so instead let's just go with a Heavy Repeater for 16d8 (72 avg) which is three attacks and 111 after DR. Built-Ins via Tank become 3d8+26 (39.5 avg) or 129 after DR. And for Arsenal we have two choices, Linked lv3 comes to 3d6+26 (36.5 avg) or 9 after DR and none-Linked comes to 4d6+26 (40 avg) or 15 post DR. Even moving back to a Heavy Railgun for 12d10+36 (102 avg) even after post Rending DR that's only 84. Ranged Arsenal just isn't worth using.

By your own words, ranged arsenal's more worthless than plain crossbows, and melee weapons were "fair". That is not the meaning of overpowered.

And indeed you directly proposed to greatly buff the damage of all arsenal weapons. You wanted stuff like 3d6 steel knife and 8d4 M13 shotgun, yet now complain that SRWd20's 1d8 steel knife and 1d10 M13 shotgun are the OP ones.

and so I suppose there might be a lesson here: Don't over compensate.

Everybody else was pretty happy with the new ranged arsenal.

Naraku: As much as I wanted actual absorption, the HP thing may be the simplest course. I'll think it over as the Path I forgot to add is one of health restoration.

Well, it's supposed to be able to drain... Not sure how to handle that honestly.

Recover HP and maybe gain some temp HP with cap if already full healed?

Maybe, I used the Spell-Warp Template (SR blocked spells turned into buffs) for ideas on mine and simple added Touch Attacks.

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Really?

Yeah really, thanks for quoting that too. I mean, a "Gargantuan" Greatsword actually deals 6d6 and that post was about the the repercussions of your extended mecha-scale (sic "mecha gargantuan") allowed larger weapons to be used and how imbalanced the choices were since you pulled the numbers out of thin air. And I recall that's when Size bonuses were added to Arsenal too, because your fix was to add another +4d6 to that Anti-Ship Sword example. But you still quoted the post as support and demonstrated how oblivious you are to the scale of things and how little attention you spare towards the context of the things you even reach out to support for.

Sort of like how you quoted my examples of how you can create variances of rescaling Arsenal to 3d6 plus 1d6 per level by trading dice for weapon properties or bonuses to attack rolls and tried to claim it buffed everything. So for example the proposed 1st level deals 3d6 instead of your Chest Missile's 3d10+Bullrush+Disarm, or the proposed 6th level Tkiv deals about 18% of your Sledgehammer Missiles with reduced range, usage, attack bonus, and no control effects. I don't know what's wrong with you to even make you think the proposal is some kind of buff but sure enough that's how you perceive things which I guess explains quite a bit.

Spell Warped?

Pool: As it seems the base concept isn't a problem, how about a none scaling bonus. Like extra points or an additional slot of your highest? Perhaps a bonus based off Charisma or something.

[SorO_Lost]

Ninjtusu: I suppose if I can't figure out a good copy system I will do the +1 to spells with Fire descriptor... I mean I was original going to do that and make Enton Empower them.

Well consider this, the Sharingan cannot copy bloodline elements or hidden arts, also no Uchiha has actually been shown to use all five elements. Like in the manga Kakashi never used any air or water techniques (those are anime only), Sasuke only used fire/electricity, Itachi only used fire/water, Madara only used fire, and I can't even think of an example of Obito using any of the basic elements. You can toss Danzo in there too and all he used was air. They mostly relied on their eye-powers, Yin-Yang, or the stolen Wood Release. And if you go back to when the Rinnegan was released, or even when the Six Sage mode came out, it was still considered a big deal to be able to use all of the elements.

Asura: I'm not really familar with D20 Modern

It's built off the same system, officially compatible with D&D and everything, and has a free SRD online. Think of it as a D&D supplement, but unlike Frostburn expanding on winter or Eberron expanding on steampunk, Urban Arcana expands on how to play a Wizard in the 90s and Future/Future-Tech expands on how to play mechwizards in space. It's worth looking into if you like futuristic stuff.

Spell Warped?

The actual Template is out of Complete Arcane I think. Among other things you become an Aberration, gain a +2 bonus to Natural Armor, +4 Str/Con/Int, +2 Dex, and +3 LA. The main deal through is you gain SR 11+HD and if a spell fails to bypass your SR you gain one buff for a minute. +4 Enhancement to one physical score, or resistance 10 to one energy type, or 5 times the spell level as either temp HP or as an increase to speed.

I used it for mechanical guidelines on adaption, but I don't have a full type up just notes that boil down to wondering if SR 10+HD with 1/4 your level for the base bonuses and leveling increases options & SR would work out ok.

Pool: As it seems the base concept isn't a problem, how about a none scaling bonus. Like extra points or an additional slot of your highest? Perhaps a bonus based off Charisma or something.

+2 to an Ability Score for certain purposes, including Bonus Slots, is the equivalent of a Feat which is something Bloodlines can grant. So something like that would work too.

[oslecamo]

Pool: As it seems the base concept isn't a problem, how about a none scaling bonus. Like extra points or an additional slot of your highest? Perhaps a bonus based off Charisma or something.

One extra slot of your highest level sounds quite reasonable.

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Really?

Yeah really, thanks for quoting that too. I mean, a "Gargantuan" Greatsword actually deals 6d6 and that post was about the the repercussions of your extended mecha-scale (sic "mecha gargantuan") allowed larger weapons to be used and how imbalanced the choices were since you pulled the numbers out of thin air. And I recall that's when Size bonuses were added to Arsenal too, because your fix was to add another +4d6 to that Anti-Ship Sword example. But you still quoted the post as support and demonstrated how oblivious you are to the scale of things and how little attention you spare towards the context of the things you even reach out to support for.

Sort of like how you quoted my examples of how you can create variances of rescaling Arsenal to 3d6 plus 1d6 per level by trading dice for weapon properties or bonuses to attack rolls and tried to claim it buffed everything. So for example the proposed 1st level deals 3d6 instead of your Chest Missile's 3d10+Bullrush+Disarm, or the proposed 6th level Tkiv deals about 18% of your Sledgehammer Missiles with reduced range, usage, attack bonus, and no control effects. I don't know what's wrong with you to even make you think the proposal is some kind of buff but sure enough that's how you perceive things which I guess explains quite a bit.

Your quoted posts had no mention whatsoever to new weapon levels or trading damage dice for other stuff.

What your old posts did have was wanting M13 shotguns (an Arsenal I weapon) to deal 8d4 damage, which would indeed be overpowered for this bloodline. Alas I kept the M13 shotgun at 1d10 damage, which makes it a balanced choice when gained at low level for this bloodline. But now you just ignore your own proposal for a starter weapon's damage increasing to 20 damage before any other bonus, even more than the chest missile you claim to worry so much about while having no Heavy restriction.

I'll repeat it for good measure, your proposal was the M13 shotgun dealing almost x4 damage than it did before. Going from 5.5 average damage to average 20. There was no mention on trading d6 for other stuff on the posts I pointed. If you came up with a new overhaul system you're free to bring it to the SWR general discussion, but what you proposed last time was increasing Arsenal I weapon damage and some random new level-less weapons that were grouped together with the Arsenal I weapons, so I have no idea how you expected anyone to figure out one was supposed to be  level 187i^19 instead of being the same level as Steel Knife or M13 Shotgun.

[SorO_Lost]

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Your quoted posts had no mention whatsoever to new weapon levels or trading damage dice for other stuff.

Oddly specific rebuttal there, if you're trying to claim the post you quoted doesn't explain things well enough you could just try reading the rest. Like this one from three days before that.

I've never played d20 modern, don't have the books, don't know where the srd is, and don't even know what PLX is about (please don't try to explain, if I wanted to know I would search it myself).

Which tells us why things might be a bit vague to you.

If you want, we can take this Arsenal-specific discussion to the SWR thread where it belongs so you can stop hijacking YuweaCurtis's thread to post ad hominem attacks at someone who suggested an adaption for wider appeal rather than being a fistfuls of dice specific option.

[oslecamo]

YuweaCurtis is using SRW d20 Arsenal in a Bloodline. You claim it's overpowered, yet all your arguments so far have been self-contradictory at best and nothing but thin smoke at worst.

For example the post you quoted has this bit:

The problem isn't Melee>Range and don't be confused with Ketaro's thinking it is. But Ranged Arsenal didn't (past tense since you altered a few things so a new crunch needs made) keep up with anything. You could make pretty viable ranged Built-Ins or increasing the size of basic weapons, just not if you were using Arsenal.

Here you are once more claiming that ranged arsenal sucks compared to anything, and that the problem wasn't melee being superior. And you weren't satisfied three days later either since you wanted M13 shotguns buffed to do 8d4 damage.

More in particular, you still refuse to reply to the simple question already asked three times about why do you claim M13 shotguns would be balanced if they dealt 8d4 damage instead of 1d10 yet claim the 1d10 is overpowered.

This is relevant for this thread because YuweaCurtis risks making a seriously overpowered bloodline if your "balance" point is that weapons gained at 4th level should be dealing 8d4 damage per attack while still being able to pull multiple attacks per round with rapid shot and whatnot.

[SorO_Lost]

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More in particular, you still refuse to reply to the simple question already asked three times about why do you claim M13 shotguns would be balanced if they dealt 8d4 damage instead of 1d10 yet claim the 1d10 is overpowered.

So it's safe to say you're not reading these posts either?

Well, I'm not in the habit of publishing errata for old posts outside of updating Handbooks but I suppose I can make a second pass given that it can be useful to YuweaCurtis. So let's keep this in mind since it was forgotten before.

Mecha Melee weapons add 1,5 the Str mod of the user if they don't use any other weapon for that round. If it is a [Main] weapon, 2x Str mod. If it's a Heavy melee weapon, 2,5 Str mod. If it is a Heavy [Main] melee weapon, 3x Str mod. The same thing with ranged weapons and Dex.

So, let's talk about Osl's M13 Shotgun in context of the Bloodlines for a moment. At the 5th level (technically 6th I suppose given bloodlines consume a level) Asura gains a weapon that has a +3 bonus to Attack rolls (which is above par), deals 1d10+(DexMod x1.5) (only one ranged weapon in D&D even has an ability modifier to damage), to an area (something most D&D weapons can't do), halves the speed of everyone hit (no save), and can be used ten times per Encounter (a wizard just got slow and can only use it once per day).

Under my purposed scale over a year ago, using the intended official rules instead of 3rd party campaign content, at the 15th level the Asura gains a ranged weapon that has +0 to Attack rolls (below par), 8d4 damage (no ability modifier btw), to a single target (as normal), no added effects (as normal), and can be used twice per Encounter (about 1/5th of the arsenal), oh and it's range is 12ft less (try not to think too hard on that one).

Putting them in a game and let's say you planned for taking this Bloodline and have 20 Dex at two attacks for a level up or being combined with a full-caster or martial adept. Against a melee target mine caps at 40 damage because it can only be fired twice, but his deals 25 damage per round and reduces a Human-like target's speed down to 5ft thanks to his homebrew debuff stacking. Since their Full-Round Run is now only as fast as a Dwarf's Move Action you can easily kite them and take advantage of that larger limit of usage. So Osl's ends up coming out to an almost triple the maximum damage of mine of 125 damage excluding the rest of the party also shooting at it from a distance since unlike say Solid Fog the impaired target(s) do not benefit from Concealment.

So with that I can now semi-understand how Osl would forget there is a ten level gap in between the two, mine has nothing but the niche use of fire & forget on round one for a damage burst while in all other aspects his is better. So if Oslecamo calls mine overpowered, try to imagine the proper term for what his Arsenal should be called. But, we can all see that you capped Arsenal access at 4th level instead of 7th so you already inherently agree to a certain point. It's just a matter of where to draw the line, I think further in and Osl thinks anything close to an average of 20 per hit is to much too.

[YuweaCurtis]

Lol, I didn't realize the off topic was aimed at me in any way, so I hadn't read it. I capped Arsenal cause bloodlines should be weaker than what normally grants access, not do to the inherit power of Arsenal itself. Though thinking about it and reading your examples, yea it is overpowered in normal circumstances. So I will make a none Arsenal one that is better than this at one point.

Hell if you don't mind SorO, just like throw something at me that uses Modern and I'll probs use that.

Edit: Modified Repel using SorO's idea. Let me know if you want me to change it so it would be so close to the original.

[SorO_Lost]

Hell if you don't mind SorO, just like throw something at me that uses Modern and I'll probs use that.

Ummm... I rarely pay attention to homebrew, how about the Magitech Knight?

It actually uses that 3d6+(1d6/4lvls) pattern for it's ballistic weapons but it ended up finalizing on 4d6 (avg 14) since there no ability modifiers to damage (18str/greatsword avg 13.5) and usage per day is limited. I simply recycled my mechanical suggestions and used them to rescale Modern's equipment into D&D Class Features. And eventually I'll do the same for ships but as a PrC and I plan to spin the For Solider stuff into a second base class but I'm not exactly a prolific homebrew creator. I get hung up in mechanics too much I suppose.

[YuweaCurtis]

Eh, so nothing I can do to make copying balanced but yet not trash?

Took out the skill bonus for Rinnegan. Added other things.

Attract is reverted Repel.

Made Naraka Paths, tempted to add some sort of Raise Dead or make it another choice.

Made Preta Path drain spells in return for HP.

[SorO_Lost]

Eh, so nothing I can do to make copying balanced but yet not trash?

Yeah and no.

The problem is cost. Like a Wizard/Cleric/Erudite needs to invest 17 levels to copy 8th level Spells, the Illthid Savant needs to invest 8RHD/7LA before even taking the PrC to obtain something, the Spelltheif needs multiple levels of suck and a play partner, the Chameleon gets spell levels behind everyone else and cannot take spellcasting feats, the Factotum's mimicry is limited to predetermined choices of limited level of limited uses over multiple levels, and so on. You choose Bloodlines, which by default hand out everything and stack with existing options in three levels.

So yes there are things you could do, but with Bloodline's price what you should do may not be the same answer.

[YuweaCurtis]

Changed Ninjutsu to an elemental buff.

Erm, are the skills I choose to buff in Rinnegan seem appropriate?