Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood

[Raineh Daze]

I also wish him luck dealing with Alucard.

[Kuroimaken]

Alucard doesn't count. The man is a huge plot device, pretty much an Invincible Boring Hero whose schtick is to allow his opponents to think he's dead.

[Raineh Daze]

He is not someone who's interesting for a 'will he win or not' thing, no.

However, said schtick is why he's relevant. Go on, try and kill him in one hit.

[Kuroimaken]

Or a quadrillion hits.

THEORETICALLY, he can still be flung into the sun, I guess. But chances are he'll just take over the sun and ram it into his opponent or something.

[Raineh Daze]

Well, if you destroy a body with every hit, you just have to kill as many people as he's ever drank!

(click to show/hide)

Which takes him 20 years or something (I forgot the exact number) to do. At which point he gets Schrodinger's ability to not die if killed so that one definitely won't die.

[oslecamo]

Getter Emperor apparently  has big-bang level blasts.

Wait, Getter Emperor eagle module has big-bang level blasts. And killing the pilots is kinda useless since it's a maniac half-sentient machine that can and will get replacements.

[Raineh Daze]

I object to the person saying the picture's not 'to scale'. I don't think they get what 'to scale' means.

[SorO_Lost]

He's going to need some luck finding the pilot's seat.

Maybe.

During the Buu Saga Goku cannot use Instant Transmission to go to Namek because he cannot sense their Ki (sic life energy) from the Sacred Kai's Planet. And while Goku can teleport through dimensions we have no idea on the full range of his sensory limitations or how Other World affects it. At the very least he can teleport to King Kai who is weaker than some Namekians from Earth and that comes out to 1/4 galaxy range with a cross-dimension limiter, at most it's senseing Buu form the Sacred Kai's Planet meaning the more powerful the opponent the further away Goku can pin point them. You'd think the spiral energy (sic life energy) of STTGL's pilot would betray him but it then again spiral energy of the user doesn't appear that powerful.

Dark Schneider would definitely still be in, especially after he obtains the Judas Pain.

Oh, I only know about him being punched so hard he lost his head and survived which doesn't count for much. Through with Judas Pain he becomes a regenerater which I already mentioned. Ghosts, Walls of Force, and things that can Regenerate don't so much as tank a hit as recover or shout rules of immunity against being punched to death.

All through being able to punch the big bang to death would kill the mech stuff (who all share the universal weakness of destroying their power supply makes them blow up ). Hmm...

[Raineh Daze]

I don't think you can destroy the power supply of Getter Emperor without killing every living thing, but I am not an expert on 80's super robots.

During the Buu Saga Goku cannot use Instant Transmission to go to Namek because he cannot sense their Ki (sic life energy) from the Sacred Kai's Planet. And while Goku can teleport through dimensions we have no idea on the full range of his sensory limitations or how Other World affects it. At the very least he can teleport to King Kai who is weaker than some Namekians from Earth and that comes out to 1/4 galaxy range with a cross-dimension limiter, at most it's senseing Buu form the Sacred Kai's Planet meaning the more powerful the opponent the further away Goku can pin point them. You'd think the spiral energy (sic life energy) of STTGL's pilot would betray him but it then again spiral energy of the user doesn't appear that powerful.

Given that it creates large amounts of matter from nothing more than sheer willpower, I think it qualifies as 'powerful' (the universe basically runs on the rule of 'if you are determined enough, it is possible'). However, being able to detect it would be no use at all: what the hell do you think those last two are made of?


So... you're basically saying that Goku can kill anything in one punch, provided that the thing being hit:
1) Can't no sell it for some reason.
2) Won't undo the damage.
3) Is human sized.
4) And stands still to be hit?

... that... is not a very impressive achievement.

[SorO_Lost]

So... you're basically saying that Goku can kill anything in one punch

What I said was, and try to pay attention the second time around.

So I sat down today and figured I'd try to figure out roughly who [movies/gt included] Goku could punch to death.
<snip>
So basically everyone but Wolverine and his copycats.

People like Alucard don't count because I already mentioned them. Yeah, already addressed people that are immune to being punched, no winning points for making boring references to stuff already accounted for and already addressed. Try harder.

[Raineh Daze]

So that's #2. But not #1, #3, or #4.

1) Fate/Stay Night Berserker because of the nature of his defences. (Saber w/ Avalon, too)

3) The really, really big Super Robots.

4) Absolutely anybody with timestop abilities. Or Reimu, probably.

[SorO_Lost]

So that's #2. But not #1, #3, or #4.

1. Hasn't come up.
3. Did I discount the robots or mention robots are useless without a pilot?
4. Probably falls under immunity to being punched to death, see also regeneration or the one million times better example of "a ghost".

Edit - Actually, wasn't Berserker's ability to turn objects into legacy weapons or w/e? That doesn't seem all that helpful.

[Raineh Daze]

So you're basically claiming that you worked out Goku can punch anyone to death who is A) weaker than he is, and B) would let him do this? No, really? What the fuck is this meant to prove, that punching people hard kills them?

Edit - Actually, wasn't Berserker's ability to turn objects into legacy weapons or w/e? That doesn't seem all that helpful.

Wrong Berserker. I was talking about Heracles.

[oslecamo]

3. Did I discount the robots or mention robots are useless without a pilot?

Silly Soro, Getter Emperor produces its own pilots during combat.

Edit - Actually, wasn't Berserker's ability to turn objects into legacy weapons or w/e? That doesn't seem all that helpful.

Fate/Stay Night Berseker, that has a bunch of extra lives and combat stats,  not Berseker(serie)'s Berseker.

However, Fate Berseker gets beaten by a school kid with hardly any combat training and second-grade weapons. In two alternate dimensions, so should not be much of a challenge for Goku. EDIT:Ninjae'd.

[Raineh Daze]

However, Fate Berseker gets beaten by a school kid with hardly any combat training and second-grade weapons. In two alternate dimensions, so should not be much of a challenge for Goku. EDIT:Ninjae'd.

Only if Goku's punch is an A-or-above ranked attack (literally, not power wise). Otherwise, Berserker won't so much as flinch.

God Hand is weird: you can hit it with an ancient Indian nuke (B rank, Vajra) and it does nothing. Caliburn, which is basically 'bright light', is fine. Though Archer cut through most of his lives in that scenario...

Second one doesn't count 'cause Black Berserker doesn't have God Hand and isn't relevant.

[oslecamo]

However, Fate Berseker gets beaten by a school kid with hardly any combat training and second-grade weapons. In two alternate dimensions, so should not be much of a challenge for Goku. EDIT:Ninjae'd.

Only if Goku's punch is an A-or-above ranked attack (literally, not power wise). Otherwise, Berserker won't so much as flinch.

God Hand is weird: you can hit it with an ancient Indian nuke (B rank, Vajra) and it does nothing. Caliburn, which is basically 'bright light', is fine. Though Archer cut through most of his lives in that scenario...

The black-haired lesbian bisexual magician gem-witch could punch trough god-hand as well. And last time I checked her lazors aren't anywhere near planet-busting like Goku has. She can't even nuke a city, at her best time she could destroy some giants. So if she going nova can remove one life from Berseker, Goku most certainly can take care of all of them.

EDIT: Archer used Gae-Bolg to finish off Berseker in yet another alternate reality, and that one was explicitly a rank B weapon.

[Raineh Daze]

However, Fate Berseker gets beaten by a school kid with hardly any combat training and second-grade weapons. In two alternate dimensions, so should not be much of a challenge for Goku. EDIT:Ninjae'd.

Only if Goku's punch is an A-or-above ranked attack (literally, not power wise). Otherwise, Berserker won't so much as flinch.

God Hand is weird: you can hit it with an ancient Indian nuke (B rank, Vajra) and it does nothing. Caliburn, which is basically 'bright light', is fine. Though Archer cut through most of his lives in that scenario...

The black-haired lesbian bisexual magician gem-witch could punch trough god-hand as well. And last time I checked her lazors aren't anywhere near planet-busting like Goku has. She can't even nuke a city, at her best time she could destroy some giants. So if she going nova can remove one life from Berseker, Goku most certainly can take care of all of them.

EDIT: Archer used Gae-Bolg to finish off Berseker in yet another alternate reality, and that one was explicitly a rank B weapon.

Rin's gems, used in concert like that, are A-Ranked magecraft. Hence why she could do something.

It would be Lancer using Gae Bolg (not Archer), and he used rune magic to buff it to A-Rank.

The bottom line is that it's not a question of power (A++ is a beam cannon sword, flying lightning chariot, and self-buffing sword--yet B+ gets the 'kills you, then it stabs you' spear, and the nuke, and the area-of-effect temple that turns people into blood then magic) but whether it has a rank.

It's from a magazine, but this is the scenario you're referring to:

Q. Lancer, Caster, Assassin, and True Assassins; all with normal attack and Noble Phantasms of B or lower. If they fought against Berserker, wouldn't it be a one-sided fight? Or are there any of them that can match up against him?

A: Assassin and True Assassin by themselves wouldn't even be a fight. Lancer can use his runes and Noble Phantasm together to temporarily raise the rank to A, but it'd still be a very disadvantageous fight but "one with some chances". Caster has two front-line Saber-class defenders, so if she uses her high sorcery then she'd be able to deal damage, but that would be limited to 2 to 3 times. Also, in the game, Assassin was able to push Berserker back because of the terrain advantage and support from Caster (weighing down Berserker's body). ...Well, since the compatibility of Assassin and Berserker is horrible, the fact that Berserker was even pushed back is enough to say "whoah, Kojirou's amazing".

God Hand text, from an encyclopaedia/side book thing:

Immortality obtained from a blessing (curse) of the gods.
The body is transformed into strong armor, and all attacks of rank B and below are nullified.
Additionally, there is the extra effect where revival (Raise) is automatically cast upon death.
There is a stock of eleven revivals.

On a side note, Goku couldn't actually work his way through all 12 lives, even if the punch is A-rank, unless he somehow manages to do that in one attack. Because otherwise Herc would be immune afterwards. Strange, really.

[oslecamo]

It would be Lancer using Gae Bolg (not Archer), and he used rune magic to buff it to A-Rank.

Eeerr, Lancer never faced against Berseker as far as I remember. I'm talking about the second route, where Gilgamesh Archer is the one that kills Berseker. A lance similar to Gae Bolg is used for the finishing blow. Ok, it doesn't explicitly say it's Gae Bolg, but we know that Gilgamesh's weapons are a bit different from their later versions, being pimped during the ages and whatnot.

And worst comes to worst, Goku isn't shy about going out there and collecting artifacts if it's actually needed. You know, that's how he started and ended his adventures and whatnot.

The bottom line is that it's not a question of power (A++ is a beam cannon sword, flying lightning chariot, and self-buffing sword--yet B+ gets the 'kills you, then it stabs you' spear, and the nuke, and the area-of-effect temple that turns people into blood then magic) but whether it has a rank.

That's the thing, everything has a rank as if we're using nasuverse rules. Even the wood shinai from the tiger teacher.

[Raineh Daze]

It would be Lancer using Gae Bolg (not Archer), and he used rune magic to buff it to A-Rank.

Eeerr, Lancer never faced against Berseker as far as I remember. I'm talking about the second route, where Gilgamesh Archer is the one that kills Berseker. A lance similar to Gae Bolg is used for the finishing blow. Ok, it doesn't explicitly say it's Gae Bolg, but we know that Gilgamesh's weapons are a bit different from their later versions, being pimped during the ages and whatnot.

And worst comes to worst, Goku isn't shy about going out there and collecting artifacts if it's actually needed. You know, that's how he started and ended his adventures and whatnot.

The other thing about the Gate of Babylon's contents is that they're all better than the later versions, so even if it was Gae Bolg it's not necessarily B+ ranked (especially when used as magic railgun ammo). Though that's probably not Gae Bolg itself, since Shirou gets really confused when he produces that thing in one route, since it looks exactly like Gae Bolg--but feels better than it. Also why would he shoot Berserker with something that might not work? He has almost all the things.

Go, Goku, collect miscellanea! And try not to enrage Goldy to the point he blows up the planet!

The bottom line is that it's not a question of power (A++ is a beam cannon sword, flying lightning chariot, and self-buffing sword--yet B+ gets the 'kills you, then it stabs you' spear, and the nuke, and the area-of-effect temple that turns people into blood then magic) but whether it has a rank.

That's the thing, everything has a rank as if we're using nasuverse rules. Even the wood shinai from the tiger teacher.

But is the rank good enough? Now there's the thing.

Torashinai is probably able to pierce God Hand. It is a truly terrifying weapon.

[SorO_Lost]

Oooh a Fate discussion, I love shattering concepts of power in those.

Abilities will often base the effectiveness of the attack or effect directly on rank, such as God Hand, Cybele, and those that have "Strength checks" or "Luck checks." Being ranked at 1 under the system identifies the ability of a normal human, so the E Rank, classified as 10, indicates someone ten times above normal human ability.

A rank is classified as 50. As in 50 times your average human, or about 4,000psi (based on average human punch strength) breaks God-Hand's defense.

Yep, Fate is behind most Shonin Mangas.