Author Topic: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood  (Read 301610 times)

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #580 on: December 06, 2012, 09:32:49 PM »
More to the point, stuff like Twilight somehow sells, and I think we're all in agreement that it's just fucking awful.

Commercial success isn't a measure of quality, only quantity.
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Offline brujon

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #581 on: December 06, 2012, 10:14:53 PM »
Ok. Bleach is now full on retarded. Holy shit, so many hoops and loops... So many retcons and re-explanations it feels like a superhero HQ. Sigh... This is why i'm now sticking to anime that's a set number of episodes. Ongoing ones lose themselves too easily. I'm baffled as to how One Piece managed to stay so relatively coherent all this time.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #582 on: December 07, 2012, 04:23:52 AM »
Indeed we may call him a "dumbfuck", but then he's a "dumbfuck" with a relatively stable good-paying job and plenty of fans out there, so I don't believe we're in the right position to critisize him. People buy his product like hotcakes, and that's what ultimately ends to the company.
With all due respect, that's dumb.  That means that the only person capable of engaging in literary or other artistic criticism are multi-millionaires.  Several hundred years of inciteful insight serves as a counterexample.  Also, it would imply that, e.g., the Transformers movies, are unimpeachably good.  Reductio ad absurdum.
With all due respect, I never said those works were actually good, just that they sell, and making piles of filthy money is still making piles of filthy money. Van Gogh may've been one of the greatest artists in history, but I would never want to be on his shoes of not selling anything on one's life. So if I was in Kubo's shoes, yes I would go for whatever puts food on my table.

And I did like the transformer movies quite a bit for the "shiny explosions overload" factor, sue me. :p

Offline brujon

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #583 on: December 07, 2012, 01:02:18 PM »
If you define good as a very popular movie, or if you define good as in profitability, then, yes, the Transformers movies are unimpeachably good. Because they made oceans of money.

The problem arises from the fact that whether a movie is actually good, as defined by a quality point of view (I.E: Coherent Script, No Plot Holes, Well Developed characters, good actors, etc...), or it's a good movie as defined by popularity and profitability, is poorly defined in the media. We see movies like Transformers getting good reviews, while other, much more well written movies get bashed on. The problem, is that there's no clear cut definition of a good or bad movie. It's subjective enough so that vastly different movies can be called good, for entirely different reasons.

And it applies to written media, as well. Twilight sucks ass. But it's popular, and profitable. So is 50 Shades of Grey (Or whatever it is called).

Game of Thrones is good, AND it's popular. But it took a LOT of time for it to be recognized by the public at large. Because it doesn't actually appealed to the collective public's tastes at the time it was launched, and it had to "wait" until the time was right for it to really get popular. After Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter made such huge successes on screen, the time came for game of thrones, a more realistic fantasy, to get the favor of the audience at large.

The simple fact is, most people are dumb, or at least have a respectable amount of willful disbelief. Enough so, that movies don't have to have a GOOD script, but only actually have to LOOK good and IMPRESSIVE. There's also the fact that many "Transformers" type movies are oriented towards the ages of 7-16 years, where most of the time, the child/adolescent doesn't go to the movie aloe, but brings his parent's/friends along. Which in turn brings "artificial" revenue, since at least *some* of the people going to watch the movie didn't actually WANT to see the movie, but got dragged along.

Now, when a more perceptive individual who doesn't have all that willing disbelief when watching a movie actually goes and watch it, his mind instantly recognizes the flaws the others either don't notice because they're dumb, or 'forgive' because, hey, explosions, it's fun.


Proof of Concept: Twilight.

For years, Hollywood was riding the Vampire train like there was no tomorrow. From actual quality movies like Interview with a Vampire to gag comedies like Dracula 2000, there was a neverending stream of vampire movies... Action ones like Blade and Ultraviolet & Underworld... Drama ones, etc... This embedded the collective youth mind with the fascination with the Vampire subculture, and made it mainstream.

That collective youth, dumb and fed hollywood bullshit by the handful from the cradle, had absolutely no criteria whatsoever, and thought Vampires were cool. Now comes Twilight, which introduces a NEW type of Vampire, one that was NEVER EVER seen before. And that appeals to the very same slash fanfic subculture of such dregs as to make anyone with half a brain sick. And it introduces a female protagonist which perfectly represents the stereotype of the angsty teen female. BAM! Instant hit.

Not minding the plot holes, bad writing, bad character developments, the collective youth embraced it and it was made popular, and by extension "good" as far as the media is concerned.

So yeah. Because youngsters don't actually read good fiction, they get impressed with whatever shit is tossed their way.

Of course, as the Game of Thrones example shows, this can work in a positive manner, too, introducing actually good fiction to people who otherwise wouldn't have ever heard of it.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #584 on: December 07, 2012, 01:34:29 PM »
It's worth noting, in the case of the vampire scene, that A) the public at large that consumes that kind of myth is much older than you think, and B) there was a schism in said public long before Twilight, with people who liked the notion of vampires as monsters (such as depicted in Bram Stoker's work as well as Nosferatu) versus the people who liked the notion of vampires as romantic, tragic individuals tormented by a supernatural element (such as depicted in Anne Rice's works).

Twilight arguably feeds on the second type to thrive. However, it does so in a different way than Anne Rice's work did. Case in point:

- The protagonist isn't JUST female. She is female and devoid of ANY quality, physically, mentally or socially, that would appeal to anyone. In other words, it takes every insecurity of the female mind and brings it together in a single protagonist, thus making her instantly identifiable with every single female teen and tween in existence.

- Edward is depicted as a "flawless" construct - attractive, popular, full of money, etc. - who falls head over heels in love with said protagonist. There isn't so much as a shred of reason for him to do so - enter the supernatural element, devoid of anything that would remotely bring fear to anyone. It is, in fact, one more element added to said construct to make it more "perfect". He's also a virgin, and thus innocent, which removes the last shred of potential fear a woman might fear from a man, namely the sexual predatism.

- The relationship described between the two is completely abusive, yet somehow the protagonist's mind is completely trapped with obsession over her "love interest", because he is "perfect" and thus, by being with him, she is automatically head and shoulders above her female peers - which is why she doesn't want to get out of it. It's not about love, it's about using a "perfect" man as a status symbol.

- When that gets boring, she identifies his being "perfect" with the supernatural status and thus seeks to be like him in that respect, because it is something attainable - very easily so.

So all told, Twilight could have worked just as well without the supernatural element mixed in. Which is why I'm so pissed every time it is brought up, because it defiled perfectly good monsters for NOTHING.

Excuse me, I need to clear my mind from pretend monsters by taking real monsters in.




Ahhh. Much better.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #585 on: December 07, 2012, 02:13:24 PM »
Indeed we may call him a "dumbfuck", but then he's a "dumbfuck" with a relatively stable good-paying job and plenty of fans out there, so I don't believe we're in the right position to critisize him. People buy his product like hotcakes, and that's what ultimately ends to the company.
With all due respect, that's dumb.  That means that the only person capable of engaging in literary or other artistic criticism are multi-millionaires.  Several hundred years of inciteful insight serves as a counterexample.  Also, it would imply that, e.g., the Transformers movies, are unimpeachably good.  Reductio ad absurdum.
With all due respect, I never said those works were actually good, just that they sell, and making piles of filthy money is still making piles of filthy money. Van Gogh may've been one of the greatest artists in history, but I would never want to be on his shoes of not selling anything on one's life. So if I was in Kubo's shoes, yes I would go for whatever puts food on my table.

And I did like the transformer movies quite a bit for the "shiny explosions overload" factor, sue me. :p
You said "I don't believe we're in the right position to criticize him."  That's what I took issue with.  That seems clear from my earlier comment.  We, the consumers and enjoyers of any artwork are in the position to criticize the artist.  Part and parcel of being one.  Although then we are subject to judgment on whether our criticisms are insightful and valid.

You also seem to want to have it both ways.  Either Tite Kubo is a giant success or he needs to desperately do "whatever puts food on the table."  There's the possibility that he could either work harder, hand off the IP, or hire some help, making a bit less money and maybe making better art.  I somehow think he'd be able to get by, and maybe not force us all to memorize 85 vapid characters to get through an arc (he, specifically, is on record as saying he invents characters whenever he gets stuck).  Not everyone needs to be Gauguin (i.e., suborn all other considerations) in order to create something.


P.S.:  I do wish they'd finish with that Hellsing OVA ...  as cheesy as the character is, he's fun.  Also, I think it was in reference to Hellsing that the whole "manga writer/director is god and cannot possibly be criticized" norm was described.  I think it specifically had to do with Alucard/Arucard's name.  But, you could say the same thing about public domain status, which is apparently a little lost upon that production company.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #586 on: December 07, 2012, 04:57:22 PM »
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I think Tite Kubo caved in under the pressure of having to produce increasingly better content. There's no denying Bleach was a cool story at SOME point, but that point was passed.

On a seemingly unrelated note, I just watched the Phoenix Wright movie.

I'm left with a mixed impression of "WTF did I just watch" and "That was really freakin' cool!".

You know, like I'd just played the game.
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #587 on: December 08, 2012, 02:33:45 AM »
Bleach died, came back from the dead to finish itself off, ended up Hollowfying itself, and is now trying to attain Gillian-rank by consuming the brains of people who've died from all the headdesking they've done while reading it.
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Offline Nicklance

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #588 on: December 08, 2012, 07:38:31 AM »
I read Bleach with the same perverse pleasure one gets watching a stroke in slow motion or a train wreck in high definition from the safety of somewhere else.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #589 on: December 09, 2012, 12:21:19 PM »
Fate/Kaleid 3rei
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« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 12:30:17 PM by veekie »
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #590 on: December 09, 2012, 02:43:26 PM »
Gotten up to episode 30 of One Piece and all I can say is: Boy do the villains piss me off.  And Nami is a bit of a bitch.

Offline Libertad

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #591 on: December 09, 2012, 03:08:01 PM »
Finished the first season of Sword Art Online.  Loved it, and plan on watching the second season.

In other news, I just watched the first two episodes of Black Lagoon.  Does Quentin Tarantino have a cousin in Japan?

Offline Prime32

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #592 on: December 09, 2012, 03:50:38 PM »
Finished the first season of Sword Art Online.  Loved it, and plan on watching the second season.
Have you seen Accel World as well? Same universe, a few decades later. The crossover chapter is being adapted into an OVA next year.
Then there's the original LNs, which are quite a bit further ahead.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 03:53:01 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Agita

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #593 on: December 09, 2012, 04:18:43 PM »
Finished the first season of Sword Art Online.  Loved it, and plan on watching the second season.

In other news, I just watched the first two episodes of Black Lagoon.  Does Quentin Tarantino have a cousin in Japan?
That's a fairly appropriate description of Black Lagoon. If you like it, consider looking into Jormungand, which is similar in general tone, if slightly more light-hearted. Slightly.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #594 on: December 09, 2012, 04:54:02 PM »
I am in need of laughs right now. What's the funniest manga/anime that you guys have ever read/watched?
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Offline Agita

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #595 on: December 09, 2012, 05:34:22 PM »
I am in need of laughs right now. What's the funniest manga/anime that you guys have ever read/watched?
I could probably come up with better if I actually thought about it, but I recently read this one and it had me in stitches. Occasionally NSFW.
Saint Young Men is also great if you don't mind (non-malicious) religion jokes.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #596 on: December 09, 2012, 06:22:24 PM »
I am in need of laughs right now. What's the funniest manga/anime that you guys have ever read/watched?
I could probably come up with better if I actually thought about it, but I recently read this one and it had me in stitches. Occasionally NSFW.
Saint Young Men is also great if you don't mind (non-malicious) religion jokes.

Many, many thanks  :lmao :clap.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #597 on: December 09, 2012, 06:24:10 PM »
I am in need of laughs right now. What's the funniest manga/anime that you guys have ever read/watched?

Ouran High School Host Club is a good one for laughs I've found, but I haven't seen a whole lot of anime to tell the truth.  It can be found on Youtube both with sub and dub I believe (and the sub is much better because of certain Japanese-language jokes and puns).  Search the FUNimation channel.  Most of the ones I've watched have action interspersed with humor like FMA.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 06:27:21 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #598 on: December 09, 2012, 06:43:11 PM »
I would also recommend Ninin ga Shinobuden and, to a MUCH lesser extent, Excel Saga.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #599 on: December 10, 2012, 05:53:09 PM »
On Twilight, watch the newer movie if you haven't (via pirating, vote with your wallet correctly) and
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« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 05:57:17 PM by SorO_Lost »