Author Topic: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood  (Read 301762 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #880 on: July 18, 2014, 01:16:07 PM »
Oooh a Fate discussion, I love shattering concepts of power in those.
Abilities will often base the effectiveness of the attack or effect directly on rank, such as God Hand, Cybele, and those that have "Strength checks" or "Luck checks." Being ranked at 1 under the system identifies the ability of a normal human, so the E Rank, classified as 10, indicates someone ten times above normal human ability.
A rank is classified as 50. As in 50 times your average human, or about 4,000psi (based on average human punch strength) breaks God-Hand's defense.

Yep, Fate is behind most Shonin Mangas.

... you mean the numbers that don't make any sense in context at all, even from the citations used? Let's follow it to where the 'A = 50' thing shows up.

Quote
For sake of argument, let's assume that a normal value is 1. In that case, E would be 10. And, every rank after that adds another 10, all the way up to A, which is 50.

'A normal value is 1'. Normal for what? It doesn't say. It's just a value of 1. How does that even begin to apply to the weird shit that it does? It doesn't. Does mean you can compare between them, but even then the comparisons don't make sense. Also trying to apply it rigorously somehow leads to conclusions like 'a normal person has a tenth of a Noble Phantasm'. What does that even begin to mean?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:23:06 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #881 on: July 18, 2014, 01:23:46 PM »
You get that a lot in Manga. Also Rank C Nobles Phantasms are considered Rank A. Inherent boost of being a Noble Phantasm rather than "a sword" really.

Still, citation 2 is the Fate/side material book which I'll take over silly anima drawings. And honestly, nothing in Zero contradicts this either. Whats-his-name successfully hunts mages using guns Gilgamesh is one of the strongest kings but he barely could match a single rank increased F16 fighter jet.

Naruto could kick all their asses.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #882 on: July 18, 2014, 01:25:58 PM »
That somehow reminds me of the UQ holder blind swordman... That can somehow detect people's eye and hair colors! Yeah, "blind" my ass, wouldn't be the first manga character that can see just fine despite walking around with his eyes closed all the time.


'A normal value is 1'. Normal for what? It doesn't say. It's just a value of 1. How does that even begin to apply to the weird shit that it does? It doesn't. Does mean you can compare between them, but even then the comparisons don't make sense. Also trying to apply it rigorously somehow leads to conclusions like 'a normal person has a tenth of a Noble Phantasm'. What does that even begin to mean?
I just know that Gilgamesh has all stats above E rank, yet Shirou manages to both overpower and outspeed him in a straight fight. :p

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #883 on: July 18, 2014, 01:30:52 PM »
He's going to need some luck finding the pilot's seat.
Maybe.

During the Buu Saga Goku cannot use Instant Transmission to go to Namek because he cannot sense their Ki (sic life energy) from the Sacred Kai's Planet. And while Goku can teleport through dimensions we have no idea on the full range of his sensory limitations or how Other World affects it. At the very least he can teleport to King Kai who is weaker than some Namekians from Earth and that comes out to 1/4 galaxy range with a cross-dimension limiter, at most it's senseing Buu form the Sacred Kai's Planet meaning the more powerful the opponent the further away Goku can pin point them. You'd think the spiral energy (sic life energy) of STTGL's pilot would betray him but it then again spiral energy of the user doesn't appear that powerful.

Dark Schneider would definitely still be in, especially after he obtains the Judas Pain.
Oh, I only know about him being punched so hard he lost his head and survived which doesn't count for much. Through with Judas Pain he becomes a regenerater which I already mentioned. Ghosts, Walls of Force, and things that can Regenerate don't so much as tank a hit as recover or shout rules of immunity against being punched to death.

All through being able to punch the big bang to death would kill the mech stuff (who all share the universal weakness of destroying their power supply makes them blow up :p). Hmm...

Your point about regeneration is moot. Both Cell and Buu had the ability to regenerate from practically nothing. Cell actually had his top half blown off entirely during the whole Cell Tournament dealie, remember?

Goku's destructive power is impressive, of course, but it is more impressive by dint of the fact that it completely obliterates nonliving matter. Otherwise it's mostly flashy.

Incidentally, none of the iterations of the Gurren Lagann has a combustible power source, it's all powered by spiral energy. Which comes from the pilots. And, later, the crew as well. So Goku's best bet would be to kill the pilots, but given that the Spiral Energy IS their ki as well, he wouldn't be able to pinpoint the source.

Here are a couple more interesting examples to consider: Kenshiro and Joutaro Kujo.

- Kenshiro has Musou Tensei. Which is basically played up as "you can't touch me and I massacre you unless you know this too". Musou Tensei cannot be learned by those who don't practice Hokuto Shinken, therefore Goku is screwed. On the upswing, Goku is arguably faster, teleport or not (different scales, really), so Kenshiro can't poke him to death unless he stands still for whatever reason. If he does, though, then he can make Goku die from all manners of nasty shit. Kenshiro is also stealth-capable, and although Goku can sense lifeforces, it could be argued that Kenshiro can conceal his due to his in-universe nemesis being able to sense the presence of others with supernatural martial arts training too.

- 3rd generation Jojo can stop time. That alone gives him a fuckton of advantage, but there's one more thing about his powerset that's worrying. Star Platinum can interact with physical space, but physical space can't necessarily do the same thing BACK. And only a Stand can injure another Stand, which means that if he uses Star Platinum to block Goku's attacks, Goku can't do shit. (Unlike Kenshiro's situation, Star Platinum is fast and precise enough, even before stopping time, to actually intercept Goku, in addition to having extremely keen senses.)

Another relatively low-powered example: Kill la Kill's Gamagoori Ira and his Shackle Regalia. No attack has been shown to actually injure that shell - Ryuuko won that one by forcefully spreading it open without attacking, by getting wrapped up into it from the inside. Flow goes: Goku attacks, regardless of method, Shackle Regalia bulks up and retaliates.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:35:51 PM by Kuroimaken »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #884 on: July 18, 2014, 01:32:21 PM »
You get that a lot in Manga. Also Rank C Nobles Phantasms are considered Rank A. Inherent boost of being a Noble Phantasm rather than "a sword" really.

Still, citation 2 is the Fate/side material book which I'll take over silly anima drawings. And honestly, nothing in Zero contradicts this either. Whats-his-name successfully hunts mages using guns Gilgamesh is one of the strongest kings but he barely could match a single rank increased F16 fighter jet.

Naruto could kick all their asses.

Citation 1 is a picture from the VN itself. It... kind of trumps the vague-and-confusing Side Material.

And yet Rank C Phantasms cannot do a thing to God Hand. So much for logic.

Yes, because the fact it's an F-16 is clearly why that was any difficulty. Not because it was being piloted by someone with the explicit ability to be a master with anything they happen to touch. And for some reason the flares became incendiary bombs so he ended up losing due to... overconfidence.*

Naruto. Right, sure, Naruto is going to have such luck when one character can be made literally invincible (Avalon). ... I think he also needs to breathe, so Gilgamesh can win that one by default.

*Also if you think Gilgamesh shooting weapons at something is indicative of trying, then you don't understand his personality at all.

'A normal value is 1'. Normal for what? It doesn't say. It's just a value of 1. How does that even begin to apply to the weird shit that it does? It doesn't. Does mean you can compare between them, but even then the comparisons don't make sense. Also trying to apply it rigorously somehow leads to conclusions like 'a normal person has a tenth of a Noble Phantasm'. What does that even begin to mean?
I just know that Gilgamesh has all stats above E rank, yet Shirou manages to both overpower and outspeed him in a straight fight.

Reinforcement is an amazing thing. Gil being weaker than he should've been due to being in a flesh-and-blood body is another. Shirou realising he'd still lose if Gil got chance to catch his breath after losing an arm is a third.

Shirou is the worst human example in all of F/SN. He has Avalon in his chest. And is Archer.

EDIT: Also, trying to use Gil's actions as evidence for power is meaningless. It's canon that he never tries as hard as he can; part of the /Zero stuff is that if he went all out the story would be over in one night. At least use Saber or something as a comparison. :eh

This has all gotten rather off-topic from the whole 'God Hand is a defence against being punched hard' thing.

I still suggest Reimu. Go on, try and punch something technically not there, Goku.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:39:38 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #885 on: July 18, 2014, 01:40:24 PM »
Shirou is the worst human example in all of F/SN. He has Avalon in his chest. And is Archer.
Shirou's the worst human example in F/S? What would you call Sakura then? :P
(click to show/hide)
And she  murdered Goldy by tearing him apart with her bare hands!

And also Berseker now that I think about it. What, now you're gonna claim that Sakura's whole body is A-rank? :p

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #886 on: July 18, 2014, 01:45:55 PM »
Shirou is the worst human example in all of F/SN. He has Avalon in his chest. And is Archer.
Shirou's the worst human example in F/S? What would you call Sakura then? :P
(click to show/hide)
And she  murdered Goldy by tearing him apart with her bare hands!

And also Berseker now that I think about it. What, now you're gonna claim that Sakura's whole body is A-rank? :p

Actually, she didn't tear him apart, Angra Mainyu converted him back into mana before he took it over from the inside, and absorbed so much that Sakura became more unstable, leading to the whole evil!Sakura thing at the end of HF. Berserker and Saber were possible to control, thus got corrupted and regurgitated.

So let's see, All the World's Evil and the Holy Grail system itself can kill Servants. :p

If you want to use humans for stuff, go dig around outside of F/SN. :lmao

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #887 on: July 18, 2014, 01:58:16 PM »
Your point about regeneration is moot. Both Cell and Buu had the ability to regenerate from practically nothing. Cell actually had his top half blown off entirely during the whole Cell Tournament dealie, remember?
Different deal. RD was complaining Alucard being splattered on the moon after coming within snore range totally beats "death by punching" just because he can regenerate from it. I already mentioned and don't care about immunities.

Highschool DxD may have another good candidate. X2 power per ten seconds limited only by it's users stamina. Nothing solar system busting by any means it's self but but the Longious can transfer the power boost to anyone. Imagine I guess Berserker at x64 power (one minute), x4096 (two minutes) or even x1,073,741,824 (5 minutes).

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #888 on: July 18, 2014, 02:04:30 PM »
I think the Book of Darkness (Nanoha) might be immune to punching. I don't think anything so much as scratched Reinforce, and the initial plan seems to have been 'fire cannon that distorts reality to destroy', then 'freeze the master so the Book of Darkness stays gone'. Anyway, the fact that their only recourse appears to have been literally 'remove this section of reality from existence' probably means that punching isn't going to work.

Though probably not a sensible thing. :lmao

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #889 on: July 18, 2014, 04:02:09 PM »
Hmmm another interesting thought. D&D Super Saiyens.

Under the CR system, +2 levels is "double" what you had before. SSj1 is worth x50 or about +11 levels, about the same LA for Paragon I think, through that's a +15 CR Template.
Dun-dun-dunnnnnn!


Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #890 on: July 18, 2014, 04:06:01 PM »
So you'd get to be an epic, unoptimised monk with a flight SLA. Yay.

Offline brujon

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #891 on: July 18, 2014, 04:18:55 PM »
So, i watched Kill La Kill, and it's weird. I can't decide if i disliked it or if i liked it a little bit.

Currently needing more recommendations, what can you guys offer me?
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #892 on: July 18, 2014, 04:28:47 PM »
So, i watched Kill La Kill, and it's weird. I can't decide if i disliked it or if i liked it a little bit.

Currently needing more recommendations, what can you guys offer me?

This depends. What have you already watched? :p

Offline brujon

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #893 on: July 18, 2014, 04:42:48 PM »
So, i watched Kill La Kill, and it's weird. I can't decide if i disliked it or if i liked it a little bit.

Currently needing more recommendations, what can you guys offer me?

This depends. What have you already watched? :p

I haven't watched anything new... Except for Kill la Kill
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #894 on: July 18, 2014, 04:44:01 PM »
So, i watched Kill La Kill, and it's weird. I can't decide if i disliked it or if i liked it a little bit.

Currently needing more recommendations, what can you guys offer me?

This depends. What have you already watched? :p

I haven't watched anything new... Except for Kill la Kill

Neither have I. What I was wondering was what you've watched in general. Can't even consider making recommendations if I don't know what you like. :lmao

Offline brujon

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #895 on: July 18, 2014, 04:53:47 PM »
So, i watched Kill La Kill, and it's weird. I can't decide if i disliked it or if i liked it a little bit.

Currently needing more recommendations, what can you guys offer me?

This depends. What have you already watched? :p

I haven't watched anything new... Except for Kill la Kill

Neither have I. What I was wondering was what you've watched in general. Can't even consider making recommendations if I don't know what you like. :lmao

Uhhh... A lot of stuff, actually. I guess it'd be easier to say i haven't watched anything recent...

Edit: Didn't see as i was typing under the quotes, uhhh...

I'll try and do a top 10 if you guys really think it's a necessity, but it'll be really hard ._.

EDIT2:

MUSHISHI IS BACK

OH YES!

NOW I MUST GET MY MUSHISHI AVATAR BACK!

Also, i'll start on Irregular Magic School and Black Bullet since google recommended those two for me to watch. Probably will also watch Knights of Sidonia, since i hear it's bretty good despite being CG animated.

Awaiting eagerly for more recommendations. But please, not stuff like Girls und Panzer >>
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 01:37:31 AM by brujon »
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #896 on: July 25, 2014, 07:44:24 PM »
CLAMP has announced a sequel for TRC, to be called Tsubasa World Chronicle! :D

Here's me crossing my fingers for more CCS cameos, if not more. Damn you CLAMP for teasing me with all your "just an alternate reality-just kidding, it's actually a sequel for your favorite series-or is it?". :shakefist

Offline ketaro

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #897 on: July 25, 2014, 08:06:30 PM »
Aaaaah maaaan I love CLAMP's animes :D
I'm sloooooooooooooooowly reading the TRC manga too, so some more of that in anime form would be sweet too~

Tho last one I remember watching was Kobato. Freakin love Kobato!

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #898 on: July 26, 2014, 12:06:43 PM »
Have they finally decided to finish X-1999?
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Offline brujon

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Re: Anime & Manga 4: Brotherhood
« Reply #899 on: July 26, 2014, 10:46:05 PM »
So, finished Irregular at Magic High School (16 episodes so far) - the series is looking fairly promising, i must say i'm quite hooked by now. Was less than impressed by Black Bullet, even more so after i saw so many praising it... But was not disappointed by either the first half of the second season of Mushishi or Knights of Sidonia.

That last one renewed my faith on CG anime. REALLY good first season.


EDIT: So now i'm all out. Anyone has any recommendations they can point this way because i have free time and i want to kill it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 10:48:00 PM by brujon »
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life