Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z

[oslecamo]

Bioweapons

Sensen Klingen (I) and Tentakel-dringt(VII) specify that they costs no energy but that seems to be the default.  A bunch make no mention of energy cost either way.

Good point, removed those mentions to avoid confusion.

A handful of bioweapons don't state their crit multiplier.

If no crit is stated then it's supposed to be standard x2 on a natural 20, added clause for that.

Verschlinger(III) has its range in feet, not mu.

Fixed.

Can you select multiple bioweapons that improve the built-in bite?

Yes.

Säure-Speichel(VI) should probably specify acid damage.

Vencom Kanone(IV) should specify that it does acid damage.

Despite the description, those are not supposed to deal actual acid damage since that would ignore all DR and would make Rending kinda pointless. Replaced the word "acid" from the description with "enzymes".

I have no idea how much ammo/energy cost mitigate things so I just made another table so that people better familiar with arsenal rules can easily see all of the math.  The table does not include suggested changes listed above.

(click to show/hide)

Level	Name	Attack Bonus	Damage	Crit Multiplier	Range	Ammo	Energy Cost	Special
1	Nadel Stacheln	4	1d4	x3	40 mu	8	0	Disarming
1	Klaue	3	1d6	x2	melee	N/A	0	Defensive
1	Sensen Klingen	2	1d4	x3	melee	N/A	0	Finesse, Downfall, Power
1	Selbstzerstorung	(best of other bioweapons)	(total of other bioweapons)	(best of other bioweapons)	all within 20 mu	N/A	0	Destroys the Einst
1	Anlage Beam	2	3d4	X4	25 mu	N/A	5	Area
1	Sucher Missiles	3	2d6	18-20 x2	50 mu	7	0	Power
1	Saure Backen	+2 to bite	+1d4 acid to bite	As bite	As bite	N/A	5	+Rending to bite
1	Blindes Gift	1	1d6	X2	melee	N/A	10	Target gets penalties
1	Schaufeln Krallen	2	1d8	19-20 x2	melee	11	0	Rending
Level	Name	Attack Bonus	Damage	Crit Multiplier	Range	Ammo	Energy Cost	Special
2	Nadel Klaue	5	2d6	19-20 x2	melee	N/A	5	Finesse
2	Stacheldraht Wurger	4	1d8	x2? (not stated)	30 mu	N/A	10	Area, Pinning
2	Fleisch-Bohrer	6	1d6	18-20 x2	25 mu	8	0	Rending, Concussive
2	Biologische Beam	3	5d4	X4	30 mu	N/A	20	Rending, Area
2	Zrstorer Missiles	4	2d10	18-20 x2	60mu	6	0	Power, Downfall
2	Schaufeln Krallen	4	1d12	x2	melee	N/A	10	Rending, Pinning, can grant flight
2	Knochen Schwerter	3	2d12	x3	melee	9	0	Power
2	Biostatische Rassel	6	1d8+1d8 electric	x2? (not stated)	melee	N/A	15	Target gets penalties
2	Giftige Nadel	5	4d6	x2	melee	13	0	Downfall, Disarming
Level	Name	Attack Bonus	Damage	Crit Multiplier	Range	Ammo	Energy Cost	Special
3	Mond Beam	4	5d6	x4	35 mu	N/A	30	Rending, Pinning
3	Hundin Missiles	5	3d10	18-20 x2	70 mu	5	0	Power, Pushing
3	Peitsche	6	2d6	18-20 x2	melee	N/A	0	Finesse, Disarming
3	Verschlinger	5	2d6	x2? (not stated)	25 ft	6	0	Power, Disarming
3	Fleisch-Haken	6	1d12	x2? (not stated)	35 mu	N/A	15	Brutal, Grabbing, Concussive, Downfall
3	Starke Gliedmaßen	4	3d6	x2	melee	N/A	10	Grabbing, Power, can increase non-flying speed
3	Zerreißende Krallen	7	2d10	x4	melee	N/A	15	Rending, Downfall
3	Giftige Wimpern	5	2d8	19-20 x3	melee	5	0	Defensive, Power, Rending
Level	Name	Attack Bonus	Damage	Crit Multiplier	Range	Ammo	Energy Cost	Special
4	Knochenschwert	7	2d8	x4	melee	N/A	10	Defensive, Rending
4	Vencom Kanone	6	2d12	x2? (not stated)	100 mu	N/A	15	Area, Brutal, Power, Rending
4	Sonne Beam	5	5d8	x4	40 mu	N/A	30	Rending, Concussive
4	Prinzessin Missiles	6	4d10	18-20 x2	80 mu	4	0	Power, Disarming
4	Greifzange Schwanz	5	6d8	19-20 x2	melee	7	0	Power, Disarming
4	Greifklauen	7	8d6	x3	melee	N/A	15	Grabbing, Pinning
4	Dreschmaschine Sichel	6	2d12	x2	melee	N/A	5	Downfall, Concussive
Level	Name	Attack Bonus	Damage	Crit Multiplier	Range	Ammo	Energy Cost	Special
5	Sterne Beam	6	12d6	x4	45 mu	N/A	50	Rending, Area, Concussive
5	Konigin Missiles	7	7d10	18-20 x2	90 mu	3	0	Power, Downfall, Pushing
5	Tod Werfer	7	3d10	19-20 x2	20 mu	5	0	Power, Brutal, Disarming
5	Reißend Klaue	7	3d12	19-20 x3	melee	N/A	20	Power, Finesse, Rending
5	Hellebarde Ei	7	6dd8	17-20 x2	75 mu	4	0	Area, Power, Pinning
5	Knochen Sabel	8	6d12	16-20 x2	melee	N/A	25	Rending, Disarming
5	Dehnbar Kiefer	+5 to bite	+3d12 + 3d12 acid to bite	As bite	As bite	N/A	10	+Power to bite
5	Große giftige Wimpern	6	11d8	x3	melee	5	0	Concussive, Defensive
Level	Name	Attack Bonus	Damage	Crit Multiplier	Range	Ammo	Energy Cost	Special
6	U-Bahn-Klaue	9	4d12	x3	55 mu	N/A	35	Brutal, Grabbing, Disarming
6	Saure-Speichel	10	6d10	19-20 x4	105 mu	3	0	Power, Rending, Downfall, Pinning
6	Faust Klaue	9	10d6	16-20 x2	melee	N/A	25	Disarming, Downfall, Pinning
6	Faust Beam	7	20d4	x4	50 mu	N/A	60	Rending, Area, Pinning
6	Kaiserin Missiles	8	8d10	18-20 x2	100 mu	2	0	Power, Concussive, Pushing
6	Knochen Keule	9	9d10	x2? (not stated)	melee	5	0	Concussive, Grabbing
6	Wirbelsaule-Backen	8	7d12	19-20 x4	melee	N/A	15	Pinning, Rending
6	Maht Krallen	7	11d6	18-20 x3	melee	3	0	Power, Pushing
6	Große Krallen	9	8d10	17-20 x2	melee	N/A	5	Finesse
Level	Name	Attack Bonus	Damage	Crit Multiplier	Range	Ammo	Energy Cost	Special
7	Liebe Beam	8	24d6	x4	55 mu	N/A	70	Rending, Area, Concussive, Pinning
7	Gottin Missile	9	12d12	18-20 x2	110 mu	1	0	Power, Disarming, Pushing, Downfall
7	Kaiser Klingen	9	7d12	17-20 x4	melee	N/A	40	Grabbing, Power, Rending
7	Tentakel-dringt	11	8d12	15-20 x2	185 mu	N/A	0	Brutal, Pinning, Concussive, Disarming, Downfall

Thanks!

With regards to ammo and bioweapons it's probably a "try by experience" thing because the only way to recharge it is consuming food and who knows how hard that's going to be?

That's fair, after reading the "reload" rules I decided that if I ever played an Einst Queen I would probably just avoid bioweapons with ammo so I didn't have to deal with it.

If you think the ammo restriction is too harsh, I can also allow for other mecha reloading methods to work, like a Support Staff Mechanic's Reload and Arsenal cartridges that can be used for allied mecha or a Ship Captain with Veteran mechanics.

[Nanshork]

From a playability perspective allowing class features that allow reloading mecha ammo affect einsts makes sense.

From a flavor perspective I feel like there should be something of a tradeoff since we're talking technology vs biology

Something like when you birth an einst you have to choose if it reloads by eating or by other classes reloading it and only mecha scale gets that choice (since support staff, etc are only used to working on mecha scale).

This is just spitballing while Netflix is paused so take that for what it's worth. I just think that a feat is too much and the anyone can reload any einst doesn't make sense to me from an in game perspective.

[oslecamo]

I can understand the "tech vs bio" point, but reloading already is pretty abstract in here since a Support Staff/cartridge can already reload any weapon in the run from energy pacs to assorted missiles to all kinds of bullets bullets to replacement blades to explosive stakes and whatnot.

A compromise at the top of my head is that einst could assimilate mecha ammo reloads (extract corrosive substances from batteries, explosives are also chemicals, metal can be used to reinforce claws, etc), but due to the difference of bio vs tech they'll only recover half of their weapon's ammo instead of the standard full refill per reload. How does that sound?

[Nanshork]

That makes sense, and also is arguable from a tech vs bio perspective when it comes to healing living constructs who get half healing from heal spells.

Also it doesn't have any negative impacts on out of combat which is a plus. And less bookkeeping than my suggestion which is good.

It would need to be half rounded up since you have a bioweapon with 1 ammo.

[oslecamo]

Ok, added the option with rounding up.

If there's no other pressing issues with the Einst Queen feel free to advance to another class.

[Nanshork]

Ideal Idol

Needs Sense Motive as a class skill.

Other than that it's a bard with a spaceship.  Everything looks fine.


Magitech Knight

Should probably also have Sense Motive since it has so many other social skills.

For Code of Conduct, does a LN Magitech Knight choose alignment separately for each ability or once for all?

How does "she make up for her mistake threefold" to remove penalties?

The fluff implies that you can only have magitechniques from one list, is that the case?

I'm assuming that Code Explode is a SoD and that exploding=death?

Wren’s Flare says the damage is half fire/half electricity twice in the text.

[oslecamo]

Ideal Idol

Needs Sense Motive as a class skill.

Done.

Other than that it's a bard with a spaceship.  Everything looks fine.

Yay!

Magitech Knight

Should probably also have Sense Motive since it has so many other social skills.

Done too.

For Code of Conduct, does a LN Magitech Knight choose alignment separately for each ability or once for all?

Each ability.

How does "she make up for her mistake threefold" to remove penalties?

Good point, added a list of penitences for each specific code of conduct.

The fluff implies that you can only have magitechniques from one list, is that the case?

Yes, clarified.

I'm assuming that Code Explode is a SoD and that exploding=death?

Correct, clarified too.

Wren’s Flare says the damage is half fire/half electricity twice in the text.

Fixed.

Thanks for the review!

[oslecamo]

Was thinking about pilot PRC, none of them seem to be choices for Real Pilots, or at least more pure ones.

Hahaha, yes, the prcs ended up being quite more on the Super side so far.

But as a coincidence I've been brainstorming some prcs which would fit more real concepts:

Veteran Pilot-Old grumpy person (literally needs to be Old to qualify), can take 10 on combat stuff X/round, Fearless, inspires allies or makes enemies afraid, can offer valuable advice, something 1x1 challenges.

Stealth Knight-Specialized in both stealthing around and protecting others and hitting hard even while remaining hard to find even when on a mecha.

Mecha Thief-Can temporally steal weapons/accessories/spirits/maneuvers, find secret passages even if there weren't supposed to be any.

Also still thinking about a Real Reporter specialized in collecting/manipulating information, but not sure if it should be a base class or prc.

If any of those interest you in particular I can work on finishing them first.

[Fzzr]

Was thinking about pilot PRC, none of them seem to be choices for Real Pilots, or at least more pure ones.

Why not Soul Soldier? You don't lose Real (or Super) advancement, just Arsenal. The additional hardpoints make one of the best things about Reals even better. The only thing you're completely giving up is bonus feats, which are more than made up for by the class features. The biggest downside I see is the Magitech Knight requirement, if you do mean an absolutely pure Real otherwise. Even Magitech Knight doesn't interrupt Real Robot/Arsenal advancement.

Edit: I was wrong, it still gets a bonus feat (getting one at level 5). Basically you give up a bit of arsenal for great stat boosts.

I actually have some issues with and questions about Soul Soldier. I should write those up soon, while they're still in my head.

Stealth Knight-Specialized in both stealthing around and protecting others and hitting hard even while remaining hard to find even when on a mecha.

Mecha Thief-Can temporally steal weapons/accessories/spirits/maneuvers, find secret passages even if there weren't supposed to be any.

It was only a matter of time until we got Mecha!Rogue after Ranger, Pally, Bard, Psychic Warrior, and Wilder all showed up

[YuweaCurtis]

Lol, the Soul Pilot's flavor is too sour and over powering. I did read over it, and is alright.

Real Reporter seems interesting, but that seems more like a none mecha class.

Mecha Thief seems cool, as does Veteran. I don't imagine me playing an old guy anytime soon though lol.

[Fzzr]

Lol, the Soul Pilot's flavor is too sour and over powering. I did read over it, and is alright.

How about now? I like it a lot more now that it has multiple entry points and leaves room for a bit more variety in playstyle since osclecamo added the various suggestions.

That said, I actually would like a rogue/thief base class. It's more or less the last missing RPG archetype (except monk? builtins being sorta like natural weapons makes that not quite as relevant, though).

On the more-like-reals PrC side, one thing I think could be cool would be something like Sniper - a hard range focus. For example, Yoko is all about ranged combat even as a super pilot, and it crosses over with her focus on firearms on foot. Something like that would certainly work for any combat-focused or hybrid combat class, but I think reals especially would appreciate the specialization. It would probably have "X maneuvers and stances from the gun maniac school" or certain ranged-weapons-related feats (even ones from outside the homebrew???) in the prereqs. Benefits could include things like giving Hybrid to weapons that don't have it, extending the range on things, better crits, higher accuracy at longer ranges but lower accuracy at short ones, called shots, etc. Downsides could include less access to things that benefit melee (like maneuvers), restrictions on Area in favor of single targets, reduced ammo clip sizes, etc.

[oslecamo]

Sniper sounds an interesting idea for prc.

Meanwhile posted what I have of the Techno Thief as base class, basics are all there now need to just finish the custom abilities, but feel free to comment on how it's looking so far.

[Nanshork]

I'm still waiting for your people vs mecha classes that might never get made.   

Ugh, that was an unpleasant amount of time being sick.

[Theseventh]

Would this be the place to ask?
Why the change from Arsenal space to Hard Points for accessories? It suddenly feels really limiting. 

[CKirk]

Would this be the place to ask?
Why the change from Arsenal space to Hard Points for accessories? It suddenly feels really limiting.

That'd be because of us (my playgroup. Fzzr, a few others, and me). Turns out that when you can trade 25 arsenal space for an accessory, there's absolutely no reason ever to take any more than the minimum number of guns to be effective, trading the rest for accessories, because accessories provide such huge boosts. This change not only lowers the absurdity that some reals can get to with their stats, but also encourages a variety of weapons, bringing the system more in line with its source material. Also, weapon space and part space are different in SRW (the source game), so it's nice to have this as a call-out to it.

[Fzzr]

Meanwhile posted what I have of the Techno Thief as base class, basics are all there now need to just finish the custom abilities, but feel free to comment on how it's looking so far.

Stolen System is just... really, really unappealing. It seems like it would be next to impossible to focus a build around a playstyle when you never know what your mecha will be next level. You can't know if eg. your random accessory will be Nackt System when you already picked Metal Marauder. On top of that, the flexible super/real cross-class in other classes that can change each level benefit from targeting appropriate breakpoint levels to get the best use of each level. Lack of control over that makes it sub-par by default, even considering the random (potential) bonus. I also wouldn't want to always need to stat a new mecha from scratch every level - at higher levels you're looking at rolling lots of super upgrades and applying them to different reals every time, with all the stat tweaks that result. That's a lot of character sheets!

Instead of the randomness, I suggest that mecha acquisition work the same as all the other hybrid real/super classes (eg. Magitech Knight), fluffed as "theft". Instead of the crying/praying whatever the thing about stealing another mecha is fine.

The rest of the special restrictions on Stolen System just feel like they arbitrarily make it a worse class than others without contributing to balance. CKirk put it as "If a party can have a paladin and a rogue, a thief can get new guns on the party battleship."

Everything else about it is fine so far, a bit on the strong side given that it gets most of Rogue, Bonus Feats, and then the Mechajack features as well. I would suggest removing the use of Rogue features directly (except sneak attack) and instead mix similar-feeling options into the Mechajack lists.

[Theseventh]

Would this be the place to ask?
Why the change from Arsenal space to Hard Points for accessories? It suddenly feels really limiting.

That'd be because of us (my playgroup. Fzzr, a few others, and me). Turns out that when you can trade 25 arsenal space for an accessory, there's absolutely no reason ever to take any more than the minimum number of guns to be effective, trading the rest for accessories, because accessories provide such huge boosts. This change not only lowers the absurdity that some reals can get to with their stats, but also encourages a variety of weapons, bringing the system more in line with its source material. Also, weapon space and part space are different in SRW (the source game), so it's nice to have this as a call-out to it.

Am I reading the tables right though? Seems most people won't get more then 1, maybe 2 hard points? Unless I missed some class feature that ups it or gives an extra. That seems so few. So restricting. I get why the change, I also wondered why I should bother with a bunch of weapons when I could just load 1 up and get a ton of toys to upgrade it. But these seems like it's cutting too far in the other direction.

[ketaro]

Super Robot has upgrades for more hardpoints I think. There's also some feats that could assist. I know H.A.R.O., off the top of my head, can get you a couple accessories. Some SRW races can also gain accessories as a racial feature.

[oslecamo]

I'm still waiting for your people vs mecha classes that might never get made.   

Ah thanks for the reminder, there's the first one.

Instead of the randomness, I suggest that mecha acquisition work the same as all the other hybrid real/super classes (eg. Magitech Knight), fluffed as "theft". Instead of the crying/praying whatever the thing about stealing another mecha is fine.

Fair point, but I still would like some custom trait to make it stand out a bit from properly supplied mechas.
 
If the 1d12-6 to stats doesn't sound that good to you either, I can work something more customized and less random.

The rest of the special restrictions on Stolen System just feel like they arbitrarily make it a worse class than others without contributing to balance. CKirk put it as "If a party can have a paladin and a rogue, a thief can get new guns on the party battleship."

I'm... Not really following that analogy.

In particular because well I can't really recall any mecha show where battleships are sporting stolen guns, if anything the whole battleship is stolen, point.

Everything else about it is fine so far, a bit on the strong side given that it gets most of Rogue, Bonus Feats, and then the Mechajack features as well. I would suggest removing the use of Rogue features directly (except sneak attack) and instead mix similar-feeling options into the Mechajack lists.

That sounds like a good suggestion and yeah was a bit lazy just slapping the rogue abilities in there, although seems the Techno Thief will have to wait bit while I finish the Monado classes that have been waiting for quite a bit.

Am I reading the tables right though? Seems most people won't get more then 1, maybe 2 hard points? Unless I missed some class feature that ups it or gives an extra. That seems so few. So restricting. I get why the change, I also wondered why I should bother with a bunch of weapons when I could just load 1 up and get a ton of toys to upgrade it. But these seems like it's cutting too far in the other direction.

Yes it's intended that you usually just get 1-2 accessories to spice up your mecha since those are supposed to be extras on top. The mecha itself is supposed to be the main star, and the more hardpoints then the less the actual mecha abilities matter.

If you really want more hardpoints there's the upgrade options Ketaro mentioned and some reals get more base too, in particular the generic ones in the Real Pilot class itself.

[ketaro]

New Stolen System doesn't say how to acquire the System Quirks or how many or few you can select.