Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z

[Sweetiebot]

1: Hey, should a Lenz be a BOW, or is it too 'splodey for that?.

2: Can Martial Machine be used to take Ships Full Of Hope?

3: Can a moon vanguard use the Heats feat to Gattai with a mech?

[oslecamo]

Going by G-Gundam's standard, the ultimate authority on giant robots using martial arts, basic kicking/punching on foot deals about the same damage as doing it on a mecha.

Does it? I mean, I don't recall the Rose Gundam or the Dragon Gundam doing more damage than anyone else in the show (well, excluding Domon, but he actually broke out the beam sabers sometimes), and those guys had actual weapons. The Maxter Gundam had "gloves" but that didn't seem to make its punches that much more effective...

The idea is that the pilot's personal skill is what matters most for unarmed combat, mecha or not. Domon can kick mechas even on foot, and applies his superior unarmed skillz in the God Gundam.

I mean what is this based on though? Everything else on mecha scale seems to do more damage (excluding certain special arsenal options). A super robot's initial weapon deals D10, and the example is a fist, though the fact it could be a blade means something too.

A quite reinforced fist like the Mazinger has.

But unarmed combat aren't just reinforced fists. Like Sekai (and his sister) can use any mecha's whole body for unarmed strikes even if they were not  designed for that.

If you try to use unarmed strike without the pilot knowing some great martial arts themselves, it's just not going to be very effective. Refer to Wing Gundam when a Leo breaks its fist trying to punch one of the protagonist mechas that doesn't even bother to react.

1: Hey, should a Lenz be a BOW, or is it too 'splodey for that?.

2: Can Martial Machine be used to take Ships Full Of Hope?

3: Can a moon vanguard use the Heats feat to Gattai with a mech?

1: Too splodey.
2: Yes.
3: Sure, why not.

[Sweetiebot]

1: Does a nanoarmour possess the standard extras?

2: What happens if someone who Martial Machined Ships Full of Hope uses a maneuver that relys on something their Mecha doesn't have?

 (I assume: they are embarrassed and wonder why they even took that)

3: If I gattai my large Nano-Armour with a small Mecha, is the result Small, Medium or Huge?

4: If I TOUHOU'd Crystalized Silver, can my Mecha make an Icicle Weapon of anything in the Arsenal list, such as, for (incredibly stupid) example, an incendiary bomb?

5: If I'm a Mecha Mook, is my "GUNDAM" secretly a disguised (or not) Zaku?

6: Can a battleship fall prone?

[Kuroimaken]

Going by G-Gundam's standard, the ultimate authority on giant robots using martial arts, basic kicking/punching on foot deals about the same damage as doing it on a mecha.

Does it? I mean, I don't recall the Rose Gundam or the Dragon Gundam doing more damage than anyone else in the show (well, excluding Domon, but he actually broke out the beam sabers sometimes), and those guys had actual weapons. The Maxter Gundam had "gloves" but that didn't seem to make its punches that much more effective...

The idea is that the pilot's personal skill is what matters most for unarmed combat, mecha or not. Domon can kick mechas even on foot, and applies his superior unarmed skillz in the God Gundam.

I mean what is this based on though? Everything else on mecha scale seems to do more damage (excluding certain special arsenal options). A super robot's initial weapon deals D10, and the example is a fist, though the fact it could be a blade means something too.

A quite reinforced fist like the Mazinger has.

But unarmed combat aren't just reinforced fists. Like Sekai (and his sister) can use any mecha's whole body for unarmed strikes even if they were not  designed for that.

If you try to use unarmed strike without the pilot knowing some great martial arts themselves, it's just not going to be very effective. Refer to Wing Gundam when a Leo breaks its fist trying to punch one of the protagonist mechas that doesn't even bother to react.

Not the best comparison, really. In Wing, Gundanium is such a ludicrously strong alloy that each of the Gundams can, and do, take on entire military bases by themselves, pretty much by dint of not taking damage from anything. I honestly can only remember Deathscythe being destroyed by enemy fire, and even then it was execution style...

[oslecamo]

1: Does a nanoarmour possess the standard extras?

2: What happens if someone who Martial Machined Ships Full of Hope uses a maneuver that relys on something their Mecha doesn't have?

 (I assume: they are embarrassed and wonder why they even took that)

3: If I gattai my large Nano-Armour with a small Mecha, is the result Small, Medium or Huge?

4: If I TOUHOU'd Crystalized Silver, can my Mecha make an Icicle Weapon of anything in the Arsenal list, such as, for (incredibly stupid) example, an incendiary bomb?

5: If I'm a Mecha Mook, is my "GUNDAM" secretly a disguised (or not) Zaku?

6: Can a battleship fall prone?

1: Yes.

2: Error message shows up in the screen and nothing else happens.

3: Medium. A large nano-armor would still count as a diminutive mecha.

4: "incredibly stupid" is how Cirno rolls so yes. 

5: A Mass-produced GUNDAM is known as a GM.

In related news, there's also a Zero Assault Kabal Unity generic real.

6: Yes.

Going by G-Gundam's standard, the ultimate authority on giant robots using martial arts, basic kicking/punching on foot deals about the same damage as doing it on a mecha.

Does it? I mean, I don't recall the Rose Gundam or the Dragon Gundam doing more damage than anyone else in the show (well, excluding Domon, but he actually broke out the beam sabers sometimes), and those guys had actual weapons. The Maxter Gundam had "gloves" but that didn't seem to make its punches that much more effective...

The idea is that the pilot's personal skill is what matters most for unarmed combat, mecha or not. Domon can kick mechas even on foot, and applies his superior unarmed skillz in the God Gundam.

I mean what is this based on though? Everything else on mecha scale seems to do more damage (excluding certain special arsenal options). A super robot's initial weapon deals D10, and the example is a fist, though the fact it could be a blade means something too.

A quite reinforced fist like the Mazinger has.

But unarmed combat aren't just reinforced fists. Like Sekai (and his sister) can use any mecha's whole body for unarmed strikes even if they were not  designed for that.

If you try to use unarmed strike without the pilot knowing some great martial arts themselves, it's just not going to be very effective. Refer to Wing Gundam when a Leo breaks its fist trying to punch one of the protagonist mechas that doesn't even bother to react.

Not the best comparison, really. In Wing, Gundanium is such a ludicrously strong alloy that each of the Gundams can, and do, take on entire military bases by themselves, pretty much by dint of not taking damage from anything. I honestly can only remember Deathscythe being destroyed by enemy fire, and even then it was execution style...

Sandrock would've also went down if not ordered to self-destruct, and was ordered to self-destruct precisely because it was about to go down. And the new Taurus heavy beams posed a threat to the gundams, "executing" the Deathscythe was the way to show their power. And then there were the Virgos with even more firepower. Early story the gundams can tank lots of basic fire (even then they're being worn down, the protagonists, always running maintenance between battles), but when the Taurus and Virgos enter the scene the Gundams need to start doging to stay in one piece.

But the bigger point is, stone and metal are ludicrously strong compared to skin and meat, yet when the martial artists punches steel/rock, it's the steel/rock that breaks, not the martial artist's fist. Having the right skillz makes all the difference about what breaks on a hit.

[Sweetiebot]

1: More to the point, how exactly would it work? Does it...roll over onto its side?

2: At this point, I would probably change that Tactical Option in Gat to Nowhere to say, that you can summon any Generic Real so that you don't have To keep going back like FUCK I FORGOT TO ADD ZAKUS or whatever.

3: Tangentially, what would a Qubley be?

4: I guess the parts to make it medium just...comes out of nowhere? (The Nano-Mecha Gattai)

5: Can custom funnel be take note multiple times, or do funnels only have a limited amount of space for modification?

6: If my Nano-Armour is in overdrive, are my bits Mecha-Size, normal size, or normal size, but also in overdrive. What happens if I run out of overdrive but my bits are still out?

6.5: What if I use Young Demon Lord? Am I summoning demonic Kaiju or normal demons, and if normal, do the demons still work on the usual scale, or do they get really pumped up by my energetic spirit?

7: Does putting my (still large) Nano-Armour in overdrive do anything for the gattai?

[Raineh Daze]

Falls over and engines stall?

[oslecamo]

1: More to the point, how exactly would it work? Does it...roll over onto its side?

2: At this point, I would probably change that Tactical Option in Gat to Nowhere to say, that you can summon any Generic Real so that you don't have To keep going back like FUCK I FORGOT TO ADD ZAKUS or whatever.

3: Tangentially, what would a Qubley be?

4: I guess the parts to make it medium just...comes out of nowhere? (The Nano-Mecha Gattai)

5: Can custom funnel be take note multiple times, or do funnels only have a limited amount of space for modification?

6: If my Nano-Armour is in overdrive, are my bits Mecha-Size, normal size, or normal size, but also in overdrive. What happens if I run out of overdrive but my bits are still out?

6.5: What if I use Young Demon Lord? Am I summoning demonic Kaiju or normal demons, and if normal, do the demons still work on the usual scale, or do they get really pumped up by my energetic spirit?

7: Does putting my (still large) Nano-Armour in overdrive do anything for the gattai?

1: Like Raineh said.

2: Good point.

3: A Z.A.K.U. with funnels?

4: Volume change doesn't imply mass change.

5: Unless the feat says otherwise, can only be taken once each.

6: Bits mecha-size while in overdrive, return to normal once overdrive ends.

6,5: Demonic Kaiju pumped up by your energetic spirit (note to self, finish that kaiju dimensional dinossaur class/prc).

7: No, only the base stats of the nano-armor would count.

[Sweetiebot]

1: I was talking about volume change too.

2: I meant does the Nano-Armour being in overdrive during a gattai do anything size-wise.

3: "Pumped up" was meant to indicate that the demons would be the same size, but working on mecha scale, but this way's fine.

4: Can it be assumed that if a martial discipline has entered a pilot's known Disciplines, such as taking the Shanghai Teahouse feat, that it works like a pilot discipline, even if such a line isn't featured on the method of gaining the new maneuvers?

[Nanshork]

Okay, I'm recovered (enough) from a severe allergy attack and I said that I would get more reviewing done before tomorrow so it's time to look at the Super Pilot!

Your skills aren't in alphabetical order, this threw me off.  It isn't a big deal but I wanted to point it out because I was wondering why Intimidate wasn't a class skill until I found it.

So it looks like a Real Robot is equivalent to a Super Robot that already spent upgrade points.  Can you change upgrades when you change arsenal or are they permanent? 

Also, looking around it looks like information about when Arsenal can be changed is only in the Real Pilot class entry.  I'd suggest moving it to the Arsenal section, Paradox Prototype talks about changing arsenal.

I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

Super Robot Upgrades

Alien Alloy says that you get Reinforced +1.  What is that?

Transform is missing a picture (not that you don't have enough pictures....)

Great Agility feels meh (unless you have natural armor bypassing stuff).

Cutting Plasma Field is also missing a picture.

The last sentence of King Frame confuses me.

Berserk button doesn't say it is mutually exclusive with hyperdimensional storage.  Is this intentional?

[Raineh Daze]

I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

It keeps changing, but supers seem to tend to be really good at specialising but aren't so versatile once actually built as the general gist of it. Haven't looked hard at how Reals are balanced right now.

[oslecamo]

1: I was talking about volume change too.

2: I meant does the Nano-Armour being in overdrive during a gattai do anything size-wise.

3: "Pumped up" was meant to indicate that the demons would be the same size, but working on mecha scale, but this way's fine.

4: Can it be assumed that if a martial discipline has entered a pilot's known Disciplines, such as taking the Shanghai Teahouse feat, that it works like a pilot discipline, even if such a line isn't featured on the method of gaining the new maneuvers?

1: The idea is more that both mecha and nano-armor split and the pieces re-organize themselves in something that fills a bigger volume with lower density.

2: No, a nano-armor and mecha in Heat(s) do not benefit from overdrive.

3: To clarify, a normal large demon would come out mecha large.

4: I can't make a full general clause since if you're gaining maneuvers from taking actual non-pilot initiator levels then they're limited by the recovery mechanism of that class instead. So added a clause with that exception to the intro thread mecha maneuvers section.

Okay, I'm recovered (enough) from a severe allergy attack and I said that I would get more reviewing done before tomorrow so it's time to look at the Super Pilot!

Your skills aren't in alphabetical order, this threw me off.  It isn't a big deal but I wanted to point it out because I was wondering why Intimidate wasn't a class skill until I found it.

They're by alphabetical order by the Earth Federation's standard of mecha century 178 Re-organized.

So it looks like a Real Robot is equivalent to a Super Robot that already spent upgrade points.  Can you change upgrades when you change arsenal or are they permanent? 

They can't change by themselves but a Ship Captain can pick up a feat to do it.

Also, looking around it looks like information about when Arsenal can be changed is only in the Real Pilot class entry.  I'd suggest moving it to the Arsenal section, Paradox Prototype talks about changing arsenal.

Hmmm, the Super Pilot's arsenal says "At 4th level, the super robot gains some kind of patronage which supplies an array of basic swappable weapons and accessories to further customize his mecha, although not as good as those of a Real Pilot. He may only choose weapons of up to the level indicated on the Super Pilot table (I at level 4, II at level 7, ect). Those weapons can be reloaded and/or swapped whenever the patronage entity is contacted. "


Idea being that a real swaps their arsenal at allied military bases and a super swaps their arsenal contacting the crazy scientist or the shady organization with their own agenda.

I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

As Raineh said, it fluctuated quite a bit but the current version didn't get any big complains. Supers can get superior base stats, but the reals get higher arsenal access and more hardpoints/arsenal space which gives them plenty of toys to pimp their rides.

Super Robot Upgrades

Alien Alloy says that you get Reinforced +1.  What is that?

One of the mecha base special properties from the intro, gives chance to ignore pilot damage from crits to the mecha.

Transform is missing a picture (not that you don't have enough pictures....)

No such thing as enough pictures!

Great Agility feels meh (unless you have natural armor bypassing stuff).

There's still touch spells around and some maneuvers making touch attacks.

Cutting Plasma Field is also missing a picture.

Replacement in place.

The last sentence of King Frame confuses me.

You can only have one of Great One/Tek Knight/Zero Pattern to pick King Frame, and the last sentence is to stop the pilot from picking up the others after picking King Frame.

Berserk button doesn't say it is mutually exclusive with hyperdimensional storage.  Is this intentional?

Yes, E(arth) V(ector) A(rtificial)s are known to carry quite a bit of guns after all.

Thanks for continuing the review!

[Sweetiebot]

1: Yeah, I got that, don't worry

2: What would even be the point of taking love-coloured magic with TOUHOU?

[CKirk]

I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

My group has commented on this before. Thanks to accessories, Real Robots massively beat out Super Robots in basically every stat. I've got spreadsheets that show, for example, AC and To-Hit bonus, and the difference  (specifically for AC, though To-hit is also consistently higher) is laughable. As an example, if we look at level 12, a super robot will have AC 35 and To-Hit bonus of +19. Most tier 3 real robots (unlocked at level 9!) with relevant accessories have 41 AC and ~+19 To-Hit. The DR on the reals is lower (topping out at 24 at that level vs the 37 of a super), but this is on a level just before a grade improvement, which makes it one of the least efficient levels possible for a real. If we look at the next level, when Reals gain grade 4, the Supers will only improve their To-Hit bonus by one (to +20), and have the same AC (35), while the reals go up to ~+21 To-Hit, and have AC ranging from 35 at the lowest (Huckbein mk3 Boxer) to as much as *52* (Randgriz).

The issue that I have with the whole thing is that some of the named real robots (not the generics, those are fine) have superior stats to everything else in the system, even among reals. As an example, if we look at the top tier of real robots, we get the Astrangant and the Alegrias. If you select accessories for them to maximize their AC/To-Hit, you end up with +33 To-Hit and 79 AC on the former vs +35 To-Hit and 53 AC on the latter. That's more than a full d20 of difference between their ACs for only 2 points of To-Hit.

As a side note, this leads to a gripe I have with the spirit Strike where it's a Real Robot spirit, but all pilots can only hit Reals on a 20 without it, thus making Supers the inferior choice because they have to pay more to be able to reasonably do damage.

[Raineh Daze]

I made a spreadsheet like that at one point but at some levels it balanced out, though I can't remember if that was factoring in the various great X upgrades.

[YuweaCurtis]

2: What would even be the point of taking love-coloured magic with TOUHOU?

Arcane Pilot who wants bottomless magic.

[Fzzr]

On Supers vs Reals, Reals also get damage growth on weapons that's comparable to or better than Supers, with far fewer compromises/relative investment in resources.

For example, at level 16 a real pilot gains access to Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles (VI), which does 22d12 base damage for an average of 149.5 with Heavy, Disarming, Downfall, Brutal, Pushing, and range 75mu.

To match that weapon a Super must take: Combined paired weapon (2 points), growth x4 to Colossal (4 points), Great Power (4 points), King Frame (4 points), Emperor Frame (4 points), Dynamic (1 point), Versatile x2 (2 points), and Mighty x2 (2 points). That's a total of 23 upgrade points, or 5 and 3/4 levels worth.

Total: 2d10+16d6+76 damage base, spending 10EN for +12dmg more, averaging 149.5. It has Heavy, Disarming, Pushing, and Brutal (can't get Downfall). It's better in some ways - EN cost 10 instead of only two ammo, and 100 mu range instead of 75mu. On the downside it lacks the +11 to-hit bonus of the Sledgehammer.

The thing is, the Super used more than 1/3 of all its upgrade points. It now has a base speed of 5mu due to Great Power, King, and Emperor. It also no longer has access to some of the options described by CKirk to have reasonable AC, and it lost even more to-hit and AC due to Growth.

Compare AshSaber, which has enough Arsenal space to equip the Sledgehammer and speed 65mu, without using any of its 5 hardpoints.

Edit: Also, at level 19 the Real can twin-link the Sledgehammer and upgrade to the Alteisen Riese, which has better defensive stats than the Super in every way and speed 125mu.

[oslecamo]

I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

My group has commented on this before. Thanks to accessories, Real Robots massively beat out Super Robots in basically every stat. I've got spreadsheets that show, for example, AC and To-Hit bonus, and the difference  (specifically for AC, though To-hit is also consistently higher) is laughable. As an example, if we look at level 12, a super robot will have AC 35 and To-Hit bonus of +19. Most tier 3 real robots (unlocked at level 9!) with relevant accessories have 41 AC and ~+19 To-Hit. The DR on the reals is lower (topping out at 24 at that level vs the 37 of a super), but this is on a level just before a grade improvement, which makes it one of the least efficient levels possible for a real. If we look at the next level, when Reals gain grade 4, the Supers will only improve their To-Hit bonus by one (to +20), and have the same AC (35), while the reals go up to ~+21 To-Hit, and have AC ranging from 35 at the lowest (Huckbein mk3 Boxer) to as much as *52* (Randgriz).

The issue that I have with the whole thing is that some of the named real robots (not the generics, those are fine) have superior stats to everything else in the system, even among reals. As an example, if we look at the top tier of real robots, we get the Astrangant and the Alegrias. If you select accessories for them to maximize their AC/To-Hit, you end up with +33 To-Hit and 79 AC on the former vs +35 To-Hit and 53 AC on the latter. That's more than a full d20 of difference between their ACs for only 2 points of To-Hit.

Are you using the top armor/shields for the reals max values with AC? Seems like so since the Astrangant starts at +20 and you claim it caps at +79, the difference is covered by Fortress Z.O. Armor (+21), Artificial Aegis (+21) and Advanced AI (+7) for the extra +49.

But thing is, Fortress armors don't allow you to to benefit from any Dex or Dodge bonus. So right there the Astragant loses 18 AC between its base Dodge and AI not doing anything to AC plus can't add Dex. Then there's all the other penalties of the top armor/shields. Halved movement speed and only one weapon/maneuver per round in particular means you may be hard to hit but you're not going anywhere very fast and tactical possibilities are severly limited (like if you use a Strike maneuver, you won't be able to use any Counter maneuver, and if you use a big weapon can't use any Defensive weapons and so on).

As a side note, this leads to a gripe I have with the spirit Strike where it's a Real Robot spirit, but all pilots can only hit Reals on a 20 without it, thus making Supers the inferior choice because they have to pay more to be able to reasonably do damage.

Besides super maneuvers that work as Touch attacks, the Super Pilot also gets more spirit points and have upgrades for even higher spirit regen.

2: What would even be the point of taking love-coloured magic with TOUHOU?

Arcane Pilot who wants bottomless magic.

My idea was more for a multiclass character.

On Supers vs Reals, Reals also get damage growth on weapons that's comparable to or better than Supers, with far fewer compromises/relative investment in resources.

For example, at level 16 a real pilot gains access to Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles (VI), which does 22d12 base damage for an average of 149.5 with Disarming, Downfall, Brutal, Pushing, and range 75mu.

To match that weapon a Super must take: Combined paired weapon (2 points), growth x4 to Colossal (4 points), Great Power (4 points), King Frame (4 points), Emperor Frame (4 points), Dynamic (1 point), Versatile x2 (2 points), and Mighty x2 (2 points). That's a total of 23 upgrade points, or 5 and 3/4 levels worth.

Total: 2d10+16d6+76 damage base, spending 10EN for +12dmg more, averaging 149.5. It has Disarming, Pushing, and Brutal (can't get Downfall). It's better in some ways - EN cost 10 instead of only two ammo, and 100 mu range instead of 75mu. On the downside it lacks the +11 to-hit bonus of the Sledgehammer.

The thing is, the Super used more than 1/3 of all its upgrade points. It now has a base speed of 5mu due to Great Power, King, and Emperor. It also no longer has access to some of the options described by CKirk to have reasonable AC, and it lost even more to-hit and AC due to Growth.

Compare AshSaber, which has enough Arsenal space to equip the Sledgehammer and speed 65mu, without using any of its 5 hardpoints.

Or the Super Pilot could just take the Missile Body stance that at PL 16 grants 32d12 Heavy Missiles and grant the properties with a fraction of the upgrades. And the Super Pilot does get more stances/maneuvers than the Real, then can further buff them through Favored Maneuver.

[Nanshork]

I guess I decided that I didn't need to read the Super Pilot class features since they didn't have any and missed arsenal swapping.  That's fine then.

Referencing stuff in the intro post is fine too, I forgot to look there.

On King Frame, do you want people to not get other options in general or just not have King Frame apply to additional choices?

I'm glad I started the super vs real robot conversation with the math geeks.  I fail at math geeking, it's just soooo much work and I hate statistics so much...

[Fzzr]

On Supers vs Reals, Reals also get damage growth on weapons that's comparable to or better than Supers, with far fewer compromises/relative investment in resources.

For example, at level 16 a real pilot gains access to Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles (VI), which does 22d12 base damage for an average of 149.5 with Disarming, Downfall, Brutal, Pushing, and range 75mu.

To match that weapon a Super must take: Combined paired weapon (2 points), growth x4 to Colossal (4 points), Great Power (4 points), King Frame (4 points), Emperor Frame (4 points), Dynamic (1 point), Versatile x2 (2 points), and Mighty x2 (2 points). That's a total of 23 upgrade points, or 5 and 3/4 levels worth.

Total: 2d10+16d6+76 damage base, spending 10EN for +12dmg more, averaging 149.5. It has Disarming, Pushing, and Brutal (can't get Downfall). It's better in some ways - EN cost 10 instead of only two ammo, and 100 mu range instead of 75mu. On the downside it lacks the +11 to-hit bonus of the Sledgehammer.

The thing is, the Super used more than 1/3 of all its upgrade points. It now has a base speed of 5mu due to Great Power, King, and Emperor. It also no longer has access to some of the options described by CKirk to have reasonable AC, and it lost even more to-hit and AC due to Growth.

Compare AshSaber, which has enough Arsenal space to equip the Sledgehammer and speed 65mu, without using any of its 5 hardpoints.

Or the Super Pilot could just take the Missile Body stance that at PL 16 grants 32d12 Heavy Missiles and grant the properties with a fraction of the upgrades. And the Super Pilot does get more stances/maneuvers than the Real, then can further buff them through Favored Maneuver.

I left out maneuvers since those end up pretty much comparable at the end. The Super gets only one maneuver and stance more than the Real, which doesn't help if we're comparing "best options". I couldn't find a maneuver that benefits enough from Favored Maneuver to outright beat things a Real can do. For example, the Real has equal access to Missile Massacre, and that's a stance so Favored Maneuver doesn't apply. Combine that with Careful Aim (ignore DR) and now at level 19 anyone can do more damage on average than the base HP of anything in the system (even alt!) other than maybe a hilariously minmaxed Machinery Warrior.