Our Town is Under Attack!

[skydragonknight]

Yeah, but due to having no ranks in Knowledge Local, they don't even know that they're human.  So... yeah.

JaronK

To be fair, knowing your race is probably a DC 10 (common knowledge), so 55% would know. The others would have to be told. ^^

[X-Codes]

But a proper metropolis has people with 8th level spells living there.  And if that's the capitol of an area, I wouldn't be surprised if they're asked by the king to build up defenses in the border towns once in a while. 

JaronK

Of course, they're probably asked to do so often.  Doesn't mean they're actually going to go through with it, especially if they're not paid, and especially if they're not good-aligned.

[JaronK]

Lawful aligned would be more relevant than good.  They're subjects to the government, after all.  Perhaps they do this in return for the right to live on the most desirable land in the capitol.  Certainly they have an incentive to make the area they live in safe... and fortifying the outlying areas has its advantages (less so in a world with teleporters, of course). 

But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they live in that metropolis because they like that country, and are charged in a few days of castings instead of normal taxation.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Wizards loved making such defenses.  They sure seem to enjoy making wacky dungeons with improbable defenses for fun... especially the evil ones, if published campaigns are a good representation.

Heck, in my games the wacky dungeons with pointless traps exist as experiments done by architect Wizards who wanted to try out their plans.  This makes the random dungeons in the middle of the wilderness make sense... they're just experiments that other monsters moved in to for safety.

JaronK

[caelic]

]Average level of spellcasters in a village of 200:
Adept: 1 1st-level
Bard: 1 1st-level
Cleric: 1 1st-level
Druid: 1 1st-level
There may or may not be *any* Paladins, Rangers, Wizards, or Sorcerers (the average roll is negative or zero, and the table doesn't say what to do in that case).

...which sort of shoots down the idea that, in the default D&D universe, magic is so rare that many communities don't have spellcasters.  As we see, even assuming that you didn't roll ANY paladins, rangers, wizards, or sorcerers, a small village is going to have (on average) MULTIPLE spellcasters.  No, they're not world-shakers, but the notion that magic is so rare that the typical inhabitant isn't even aware that it exists simply is not supported by the rules.

On the other hand, in a city of 10,000:
Adept: 2 9th-level, 4 4th-level, 8 2nd-level, 16 1st-level
Bard: as above
Cleric: as above
Druid: as above
Paladin: 2 8th-level, 4 4th-level, no others capable of casting spells
Ranger: as above
Sorcerer: 2 8th-level, 4 4th-level, 8 2nd-level, 16 1st-level
Wizard: as above

So, no casters above 9th-level (meaning 5th-level spells are incredibly rare, and 6th+ are unheard of), and less than 2% of the population is made up of anyone that can cast spells at all.

...of course, that small city COULD have a cleric of as high as 12th level.  Bump up the population a mere 2,000, and all of a sudden, that city could have a cleric of 15th level.

And we're not even TALKING about the big metropolises here--we're talking about cities on the border between "small city" and "large city."

Plenty of spellcasters to make the population well aware that magic exists--and the sorts of spells we've been talking about (flight and fireball) are likely to turn up, on average, even in a large town.

As I said: you may think that magic should be extremely rare in D&D, to the point of being unknown to most of the population, and that's fine--but that's not the default assumption they used when designing the game, and it's certainly not the default assumption for the published settings.

[caelic]

Heck, in my games the wacky dungeons with pointless traps exist as experiments done by architect Wizards who wanted to try out their plans.  This makes the random dungeons in the middle of the wilderness make sense... they're just experiments that other monsters moved in to for safety.

JaronK

In my games, the dungeon complexes are fortifications that people built because they were more defensible than an aboveground fortress, and they wanted to have somewhere to retreat to.

I try not to put in pointless traps, personally, and I try to make sure the layout of the dungeon makes at least some sense.

[X-Codes]

As I said: you may think that magic should be extremely rare in D&D, to the point of being unknown to most of the population, and that's fine--but that's not the default assumption they used when designing the game, and it's certainly not the default assumption for the published settings.

The average commoner really wouldn't know a magic missile if it hit them in the face.  They might know that stuff like magic missile exists.  Also, I'm not saying that magic, in general, is extremely rare, I'm saying that the kind of magic you're talking about, with wizards leveling entire cities, is extremely rare.  Again, the number of spellcasters in a small city capable of casting 5th-level or higher spells can be counted on your fingers, if there are any at all.  Also, if we look at an example of a highly magical society like, say... Thay.  The country itself has a population just shy of 5M people, but there are about a half-dozen metropolises and large cities among the lot of them.  So, in a population of 5M people, you probably won't even have 100 capable of 5th-level or higher spells.

[caelic]

The country itself has a population just shy of 5M people, but there are about a half-dozen metropolises and large cities among the lot of them.  So, in a population of 5M people, you probably won't even have 100 capable of 5th-level or higher spells.

...and yet, every city outside Thay seems to have enclaves with wizards of this power level.  Heck, if we go through and count 'em up, I'd be willing to bet we have close to that many just in terms of named NPCs in various supplements.

And who needs spells capable of destroying an entire city?  The magic I was talking about was stuff on the level of fly and fireball.  Even the existence of relatively low-level magic changes the tactical landscape significantly.

[veekie]

Fly and Fireball aren't exactly low level magic on the national scheme of things though. The wizard capable of them are one in thousands, and the wizard who actually know all the right spells are fewer still. You wouldn't be seeing whole fleets of wizards flying around, they tend to be more individual or operate as key parts of specialized squads. Additionally, most of them won't have PC gear, which kinda puts a spanner in the works regarding solo reigns of terror.

Put it this way:
High level spellcasters are like aircraft carriers and nukes. Most countries won't be able to defend themselves against those effectively at all, and so do not bother(incidentally these countries are generally not common targets of such). When they are present, they tend to be available in small numbers or even alone, so strategically they'd be used more like snipers and less like tanks.
Cities are thus designed to deal with threats they might actually manage to hold out against, you have the odd fortified tower to give your PC classed archers and spellcasters a clear line of fire to help rule the battlefield, and walls/moats to fend off the much more common invasions of various small tribes and wild animals. In the citadel areas of larger nations, you might have actual bunkers capable of holding off magically powered assassins, but that is for leaders, who might see themselves being targeted by individual madmen.

[X-Codes]

Fly and Fireball aren't exactly low level magic on the national scheme of things though. The wizard capable of them are one in thousands, and the wizard who actually know all the right spells are fewer still. You wouldn't be seeing whole fleets of wizards flying around, they tend to be more individual or operate as key parts of specialized squads. Additionally, most of them won't have PC gear, which kinda puts a spanner in the works regarding solo reigns of terror.

Further, if you're a 5th-level Wizard and attack a city with Fly and Fireball, you're going to kill about a dozen people and then be summarily executed as the entire town guard comes down on your ass, since you have no method of escape until Teleport (5th-level).

[veekie]

That too. Though anyone flying should be sorely aware that you could get hundreds of archers with perfectly good line of sight to you, and unless you are done with your assault before enough of them turn up to pierce your defenses with sheer volume(at that level, not hard), you're easily dead. In either case, spellcaster capabilities are too varied for any fixed emplacement defenses to deal with easily, any setting where you have the problem(spellcasting or near casting foes being a sufficiently common threat to require extremely costly defense measures that apply only to them), also contains the natural solution(spellcasting residents of the city not at all pleased about the intrusion).

Had one of those once, when I worked out the consequences of a significantly more magical city(being sited on a magically mutagenic area). A population of 5-10% sorcerors(and mostly level 1 sorcs at that, capping out at level 8 or so on the high end) basically makes the complex defenses much less necessary, as when push comes to shove they've be shoving back with a massive volume of magic, and you need to be much more powerful to shrug off massed minor magics. If you have a large resident caster population, an open layout settlement is in fact, much more useful, due to counterfire capability and line of sight.

[JaronK]

But the flying thing isn't just Wizards.  The Desmoderu use Hunting Bats and War Bats... these are domesticated flying creatures, probably about as common among that culture as war horses and such.  Raptorians can mount flying raiding parties too.  The first culture to domesticate and breed a significant number of fliers is going to take out anyone who can't defend against this.

Plus, Races of Stone established that Gnomes often ride Dire Badgers and even have burrowing saddles to allow troops to ride them for underground attacks.  So you've got to secure against that. 

As such, I'd imagine any serious fortification needs to be stone underneath and have some kind of defense against arial attack, including basic things like flying troops just going high above and dropping rocks.  So I'd guess that fortifications built into rocky mountains would be pretty standard.  Also, towers make a good bit of sense... with hardening and iron clad exteriors, they could resist most siege attacks, and yet they don't have a huge area to attack from below.  Also, they are secure against the air.

JaronK

[X-Codes]

But the flying thing isn't just Wizards.  The Desmoderu use Hunting Bats and War Bats... these are domesticated flying creatures, probably about as common among that culture as war horses and such.  Raptorians can mount flying raiding parties too.  The first culture to domesticate and breed a significant number of fliers is going to take out anyone who can't defend against this.

Bow and arrow.  In the hands of a Warrior 1, it's really not that much less effective than a longsword.  Also, Hunting/War bats are at least as expensive as heavy warhorses, so they're less common than heavy cavalry, and if they over-expose themselves by flying over the wall while the ground troops are still trying to breach, then they're going to die fast.

Plus, Races of Stone established that Gnomes often ride Dire Badgers and even have burrowing saddles to allow troops to ride them for underground attacks.  So you've got to secure against that.

  Build walls on bedrock (like they should be built, anyway).  They're suddenly relevant, again.

[JaronK]

But the flying thing isn't just Wizards.  The Desmoderu use Hunting Bats and War Bats... these are domesticated flying creatures, probably about as common among that culture as war horses and such.  Raptorians can mount flying raiding parties too.  The first culture to domesticate and breed a significant number of fliers is going to take out anyone who can't defend against this.

Bow and arrow.  In the hands of a Warrior 1, it's really not that much less effective than a longsword.  Also, Hunting/War bats are at least as expensive as heavy warhorses, so they're less common than heavy cavalry, and if they over-expose themselves by flying over the wall while the ground troops are still trying to breach, then they're going to die fast.

Hence my comment about flying high and dropping rocks.  Nothing stops them from simply getting above the range of enemy bows and dropping rocks like siege weapons.  I mean, I absolutely expect troops with Greatbows and Greatcrossbows specifically for the range benefits, but regardless of the range a War Bat or Dire Eagle or whatever can simply fly higher.  Somehow, you need to defend against that.  In some areas, that might mean having your own air cavalry.  In others, this might be mountain forts.  I could even see building a fort somewhere with high winds or unusual thermal currents above it specifically because it would make dropping rocks really hard.

[

  Build walls on bedrock (like they should be built, anyway).  They're suddenly relevant, again.

Yes, this becomes important.  In some areas, it might not be possible (requiring other solutions).  But I'd also expect burrowing troops to have some kind of sapping abilities (like a few martial adepts with Mountain Hammer maneuvers).  They could burrow up to the walls, punch throw, and continue on.  This might make it a good idea to have a moat that goes all the way down to the bedrock.  That way you'd need creatures that both burrow and swim to actually get to the walls and breach from below.

JaronK

[Halinn]

If they're flying up to over 1000 feet, they can't see the ground. That's a quite simple defense against them flying up high.

[JaronK]

That's getting rapidly into "no one can see the Sun because the Spot check is too high" territory.  I always figured the size modifier for a town (and the sun!) would be much higher than the Colossal modifier.  But yes, by RAW you can't see the ground.  If we're doing that there's a simpler solution... the cavalry has a spotter up there with a spyglass, and gets just to the edge of where they can see the major buildings (which should be Colossal in size, and thus pretty easy to see).  Then when they're on target the spotter orders them to all drop rocks.  The archers on the ground can't see them.

JaronK

[sirpercival]

You can see the Sun despite the massive Spot check DC because of gravitational lensing.

Take it from me -- I'm an astrophysicist.

[caelic]

Jaron's pretty much covering my points.  This whole "Anything that deviates from Earth history is too rare to have an effect on the evolution of the society" schtick is a crutch that bad fantasy has been leaning on for decades; sorry if I'm going on about it, but it's one of my biggest pet peeves as a writer.  If you're going to introduce an element into a setting, you should explore the logical consequences.

[JaronK]

It works better when you remember that the game was really planned out at the low levels... they just didn't test what happens when you put high level casters in the world in significant numbers.  So really, the game world makes perfect sense if you just don't do that.  This is why E6 ends up making so much more logical sense if you wanted the usual "castles and knights" setting.  Fireball is nasty, but at that level you could mostly respond with archery fire (the presence of fliers and burrowers still does alter things of course, but not as much).  Having people who could just build a city when they get bored found in every metropolis just stretches credulity.

JaronK

[veekie]

Don't forget also, for extreme height, you have the problem of altitude sickness, carrying capacity limitations(unless you're using dragons or other massive fliers, or using high level magic), and also the problem of your dropped objects taking multiple rounds to hit(inflicting 20d6 when they do), giving the defenders plenty of time to clear out or intercept it.

[Sjappo]

Don't forget also, for extreme height, you have the problem of altitude sickness, carrying capacity limitations(unless you're using dragons or other massive fliers, or using high level magic), and also the problem of your dropped objects taking multiple rounds to hit(inflicting 20d6 when they do), giving the defenders plenty of time to clear out or intercept it.

Altitude sickness occurs commonly from above 8000 ft (2400 m) which is easily out of enemy bowshot. Flyers are immune, or should be.

Seige weaponry targets buildings and fortifications, not people. And they invented carpetbombing to counter the low hit probability. I'm sure a Gnomish inventor could fix up some bombsight as used in WW2 that accounts for forward travel etc. Napalm and Zyclon-B and anti-personal clusterbombs will also counter low hit probability and target soft targets and have DnD counterparts. (Explosive Runes for instance)

So, yeah.

I think we should be looking at WW1 and WW2 (and maybe Korea or Vietnam) for how aerial combat changed how fortification and warfare worked. It basically ended seige warfare. The treat of airplanes obsoleted most traditional war machinery like fortresses, big guns, battleships. I'd imagine the same would happen in a High Fantasy world with flight readily available.

More WW2 style combat with casters taking the role of fire support, medic and heavy weapon teams. A very diffuse battlefield, not 2 big armies clashing on a field. That would be suicide.

And this would even happen in pretty small skirmishes. If one side made a pact with a clan of gargoyles, raptorians or some other flier the other side would be screwed. Air superiority is king. Sure, you loose some flyers, but the losses to they other guy are far greater.