Author Topic: Our Town is Under Attack!  (Read 30348 times)

Offline caelic

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2011, 01:53:20 PM »
This sort of goes back to what I see as one of the major problems with fantasy RPGs in general: "The wizard lives in that castle over there!"

Simply put: in a high-magic setting, castles, as they existed in the real world, probably wouldn't exist.

Defenses evolve to meet the types of threats one can reasonably expect.  A real-world castle evolved to meet the threat of ground troops with weapons that couldn't quickly and effectively destroy wooden or stone fortifications.

As the weapons improved, so did the defenses, and castles evolved from wooden hill forts to buttressed stone structures.

And then aerial combat and high-powered artillery came along, and now, castles are tourist traps.

If the defenders had to deal with highly mobile heavy artillery right from the start, I doubt castles would ever have evolved in their present form--and if you want to defend a town or castle in D&D, you need to think in those terms. 

Cover is your friend.  Remember that total cover negates area of effect spells.  Think bunkers.  As much as possible of the essential infrastructure of your town should be underground.  Oh, you can have houses on the surface--it makes things more comfortable, and gives the baddies something to attack--but the important stuff should be down in the reinforced basement, and there should be underground corridors connecting those buildings to one another, to permit for mobility while the town aboveground is being bombarded.

Offline Allisade

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2011, 02:56:56 PM »
This sort of goes back to what I see as one of the major problems with fantasy RPGs in general: "The wizard lives in that castle over there!"

Simply put: in a high-magic setting, castles, as they existed in the real world, probably wouldn't exist.

Defenses evolve to meet the types of threats one can reasonably expect.  A real-world castle evolved to meet the threat of ground troops with weapons that couldn't quickly and effectively destroy wooden or stone fortifications.

As the weapons improved, so did the defenses, and castles evolved from wooden hill forts to buttressed stone structures.

And then aerial combat and high-powered artillery came along, and now, castles are tourist traps.

If the defenders had to deal with highly mobile heavy artillery right from the start, I doubt castles would ever have evolved in their present form--and if you want to defend a town or castle in D&D, you need to think in those terms. 

Cover is your friend.  Remember that total cover negates area of effect spells.  Think bunkers.  As much as possible of the essential infrastructure of your town should be underground.  Oh, you can have houses on the surface--it makes things more comfortable, and gives the baddies something to attack--but the important stuff should be down in the reinforced basement, and there should be underground corridors connecting those buildings to one another, to permit for mobility while the town aboveground is being bombarded.


I'm the dwarven cleric who's suddenly exploring his heritage... by creating an undercity with the help of a hired corps of dwarven stone workers, miners and engineers, (and some summoned celestial badgers with custom made claw sheathes of "Soften Earth and Stone" - they leave 5' stable tunnels behind and can burrow at a decent speed - now through solid stone as well - which is helping the dwarves do their thing a bit faster than they might normally)  - other / alternate / better suggestions on quickly creating a underground city in a mountain are welcome =)

In a small way the wizard might have actually helped us - convincing the town to take advantage of the undercity being built had some resistance (everyone appreciated the reinforced cellars / living areas added to their stores / houses - but most still used above ground routes instead of the underground passages) I think they'll be happier to have the under routes now ...

But I agree - as soon as I started thinking about flying fireball throwers... towers seemed less useful than caverns. Then again the DM and I haven't discussed yet how much it'll cost to properly earthquak proof the undercity ... I'm assuming dwarven engineering is ready for such things, but a persisted earthquake could be an issue =/


Offline Halinn

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2011, 02:57:14 PM »
There is the issue that digging out a huge cave involves a lot of effort, while stone walls and ballistae that can be aimed skywards is quite simple. When you consider that several dragon types can burrow, you have to try to match effort to defend versus predicted opponents. Enemies mainly consisting of ground troops are still fairly common, as are wild animals.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2011, 02:59:36 PM »
And so... the first dungeon was born. :D

This sort of goes back to what I see as one of the major problems with fantasy RPGs in general: "The wizard lives in that castle over there!"

Simply put: in a high-magic setting, castles, as they existed in the real world, probably wouldn't exist.

Defenses evolve to meet the types of threats one can reasonably expect.  A real-world castle evolved to meet the threat of ground troops with weapons that couldn't quickly and effectively destroy wooden or stone fortifications.

As the weapons improved, so did the defenses, and castles evolved from wooden hill forts to buttressed stone structures.

And then aerial combat and high-powered artillery came along, and now, castles are tourist traps.

If the defenders had to deal with highly mobile heavy artillery right from the start, I doubt castles would ever have evolved in their present form--and if you want to defend a town or castle in D&D, you need to think in those terms. 

Cover is your friend.  Remember that total cover negates area of effect spells.  Think bunkers.  As much as possible of the essential infrastructure of your town should be underground.  Oh, you can have houses on the surface--it makes things more comfortable, and gives the baddies something to attack--but the important stuff should be down in the reinforced basement, and there should be underground corridors connecting those buildings to one another, to permit for mobility while the town aboveground is being bombarded.
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Offline caelic

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2011, 03:39:26 PM »
And so... the first dungeon was born. :D


EXACTLY!  Someone got where I was going. ;)

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2011, 04:01:01 PM »
And so... the first dungeon was born. :D


EXACTLY!  Someone got where I was going. ;)
I would suggest that you're right with regards to high-level Wizards and such.  In settings like Dark Sun, where the world is literally ruled by Wizards, then you probably shouldn't have Castles, either.  On the other hand, there are plenty of mundane dangers that a Castle works well against, and it's less effort to build a castle than it is to dig out a castle-sized labyrinth.

So... Castles exist, it's just that the heroes stop caring about castles starting at level 10 or so. :p

Offline caelic

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2011, 04:34:36 PM »
And so... the first dungeon was born. :D


EXACTLY!  Someone got where I was going. ;)
I would suggest that you're right with regards to high-level Wizards and such.  In settings like Dark Sun, where the world is literally ruled by Wizards, then you probably shouldn't have Castles, either.  On the other hand, there are plenty of mundane dangers that a Castle works well against, and it's less effort to build a castle than it is to dig out a castle-sized labyrinth.

So... Castles exist, it's just that the heroes stop caring about castles starting at level 10 or so. :p


It's not so much that they wouldn't exist--it's that they wouldn't look much like real-world castles.  Who would leave a walled city open to the sky with so many flying dangers?  (Keep in mind that we're not just talking about wizards here--there are harpies and griffons and rocs and all sorts of big, nasty flying critters that real-world cities didn't have to contend with.)  Who would allow thatch for roofing in a world where a single fireball could wipe out a flammable city?  (Sure, the peasants might have no choice, but the merchants who actually have the money and the influence would object to those miserable poor people endangering THEIR city!)


Now, back on subject: as far as rendering the town earthquake-proof, how about Greater Stone Metamorphosis?  It'd take a while, but you could shift the entire complex into the strongest possible stone.  Layer that with Hardening, and you're going to have walls that are darned near indestructible.   That wouldn't TOTALLY nullify the damage an earthquake would do, but it should go a LONG way towards cutting it down.  I'll also mention one of my favorite spells, Stone Trap.  Supporting your complex with magically-levitating blocks capable of supporting significant weight is going to cut way down on the possibility of collapse. 

Genius Loci could also help, depending on your DM--it seems logical that an elder Earth Elemental could focus on stabilizing the area as its task, although that's a judgment call.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 04:50:06 PM by caelic »

Offline littha

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2011, 04:50:08 PM »
As far as thatch roofing goes see real life events like the fire of London or consider certain medieval weapons like naphtha pots that would cause a huge amount of fire damage. People would probably still build with flammable materials just because its easier and cheaper, in a small area like a castle its probably avoidable but when you get to the walled cities stage it would be near impossible to avoid.

Offline Halinn

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2011, 05:52:57 PM »
Basically, inside your walls, you use half-slabs of wood instead of wood blocks (minecraft reference).

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2011, 06:33:07 PM »
And so... the first dungeon was born. :D


EXACTLY!  Someone got where I was going. ;)
I would suggest that you're right with regards to high-level Wizards and such.  In settings like Dark Sun, where the world is literally ruled by Wizards, then you probably shouldn't have Castles, either.  On the other hand, there are plenty of mundane dangers that a Castle works well against, and it's less effort to build a castle than it is to dig out a castle-sized labyrinth.

So... Castles exist, it's just that the heroes stop caring about castles starting at level 10 or so. :p


It's not so much that they wouldn't exist--it's that they wouldn't look much like real-world castles.  Who would leave a walled city open to the sky with so many flying dangers?  (Keep in mind that we're not just talking about wizards here--there are harpies and griffons and rocs and all sorts of big, nasty flying critters that real-world cities didn't have to contend with.)  Who would allow thatch for roofing in a world where a single fireball could wipe out a flammable city?  (Sure, the peasants might have no choice, but the merchants who actually have the money and the influence would object to those miserable poor people endangering THEIR city!)


Now, back on subject: as far as rendering the town earthquake-proof, how about Greater Stone Metamorphosis?  It'd take a while, but you could shift the entire complex into the strongest possible stone.  Layer that with Hardening, and you're going to have walls that are darned near indestructible.   That wouldn't TOTALLY nullify the damage an earthquake would do, but it should go a LONG way towards cutting it down.  I'll also mention one of my favorite spells, Stone Trap.  Supporting your complex with magically-levitating blocks capable of supporting significant weight is going to cut way down on the possibility of collapse. 

Genius Loci could also help, depending on your DM--it seems logical that an elder Earth Elemental could focus on stabilizing the area as its task, although that's a judgment call.

I think you've got the wrong idea here.  Air power and artillery exist in the d&d world, but the mere existence of air power doesn't automatically mean "castles" are obsolete.  If you think about it, artillery was around for a long time before forts and castles stopped being used.  even now in iraq/afghanistan there are walled out/blockaded areas there that do a good job of protecting the inner areas(re: "green zone").  in modern warfare, even units on the move have command posts that are protected by concertina fences-mobile walls...  Sure going underground is one way to go, but its not the only means of defending yourself from air power.  Sponsoring a mages guild is one way, by getting some air power of your own. 

And there is also the fact that enemy air power is also relatively rare.  most high level wizards aren't going to personally join the battle, they are too intelligent for that since if they fail they are dead, most wizards would send proxies to fight thier war for them..

Your logic that "castles" in a medival fantasy setting are useless is somewhat flawed I think.. there's a host of reasons why its a good idea.  Greyhawk itself is a walled city...   


Offline X-Codes

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2011, 06:47:34 PM »
As far as thatch roofing goes see real life events like the fire of London or consider certain medieval weapons like naphtha pots that would cause a huge amount of fire damage. People would probably still build with flammable materials just because its easier and cheaper, in a small area like a castle its probably avoidable but when you get to the walled cities stage it would be near impossible to avoid.
Further, I expect that Caelic is grossly over-stating how fantastic this fantasy world is.

If there was any significant aerial threat to a city, then the wealthy merchants would hire adventurers to take it out.  It would be far more cost-effective than building a giant dome, especially considering how limited the engineering capabilities of the era are.  Sure, you can just Wall of Stone, but that would likely be even more expensive than getting manual labor to do it if the Wizard casting it charged a typical rate.

Likewise, nobody would take into account high-level spells like Earthquake in basic city design, unless high-level spellcasters are just that common (like in Silverymoon, Myth Drannor, Sigil, etc.).  In that case, there's really no mundane protection, you just protect the city with some combination of even stronger magic and/or Mutually Assured Destruction should a high-level Wizard ever get out of line.

Remember, anything higher than level 1 makes up a tiny, tiny portion of the population.  Wizards are probably 1/16th of that, at most.  Also, Wizards that are high-enough level to be of significant threat to a major city are a tiny, tiny portion of all Wizards there are.  I know someone threw up a chart on the premise that 2x level = 1/2 as common, but that's not really how it works.  Certain communities just don't have high level wizards, and at least as many people living in those communities as there are living in Metropolises or major Cities, so it's not even half of what that table suggests.

So yeah, when building these cities, these people almost certainly don't even know that there are Wizards powerful enough to burn down entire cities as a free action every turn.

Offline JaronK

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2011, 07:45:56 PM »
Note that a single Lyre of Building combined with a performer who can go endlessly (Warforged, Dread Warrior, Necropolitan, etc) can do INSANE amounts of labor quickly and effectively.  Use this to your advantage.  Note that this can also be used to make a single structure invincible while reinforcements (you) arrive. 

So consider using this labor to hollow out a nearby mountain, and use that area as the living quarters/downtown district/administrative area.  Only the farming and other things that specifically require people to be outside are out there.  Have a small number of entrances into this mountain, which you can guard against invisibility and stealth (you have a Bard... can he dip Mindbender for Mindsight?  Your Paladin probably prevents using undead with Lifesight though).  In case of major attack, the entire mountain becomes invincible.  This makes defense a LOT easier.

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Offline caelic

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2011, 08:00:25 PM »


Your logic that "castles" in a medival fantasy setting are useless is somewhat flawed I think.. there's a host of reasons why its a good idea.  Greyhawk itself is a walled city...



Well, first off, that's not my logic, as I've clarified.  My logic is that castles would have evolved differently--just as a modern firebase is considerably different in design from a medieval castle.

Greyhawk being a walled city really doesn't mean all that much, because Greyhawk is emblematic of the trope--a universe with drastically different physical laws and threats which for some reason still looks and feels like medieval Europe.  The contemporary version is comic books where Mr. Fantastic and Tony Stark are routinely coming up with world-changing inventions, but none of them ever seem to actually have any impact on the world at large.



Heck, Eberron was precisely a response TO this problem.

Offline caelic

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2011, 08:09:31 PM »
Further, I expect that Caelic is grossly over-stating how fantastic this fantasy world is.


If this were a Conan novel, I'd concede your point.  If it were a low-fantasy game, or even a heroic fantasy game, I would concede your point.

It's not.  D&D 3.5 is about as far into high fantasy as you can GET without crossing the line into outright superheroic fantasy (and when optimized, it frequently does.)

We're not talking about how rare you think magic should be, or how rare I think magic should be: we're talking about how rare magic is according to the default game.  We can houserule it all we like, but we can't then turn around and say "This is how rare magic is in D&D."

In D&D 3.5, magic is common.  In any town of hamlet size or larger, magic is likely available, according to the rules.  Not BIG magic, true--things like Eternal Torches--but magic.

Furthermore, again according to the rules, any town of any size is going to have spellcasters.  They may be low level, but they're going to be there.  The example is a hamlet of two hundred people--which has a population of 7 spellcasters. 

In a large city, AT A MINIMUM, there are going to be:

15 wizards (one of 10th level, two of fifth level, four of second level, and eight of first level)
15 clerics (one of 10th, two of fifth, four of second, eight of first)
15 druids

...and so on.  This isn't even counting the adepts (of whom there should be 60, according to the rules.)

And that's in a city of 12,000, and that's the worst-case scenario.  If the dice come up with a number higher than 1, there'll be more than that.  Bump it up to a metropolis, and you're going to have SIGNIFICANTLY more.

Quote
It would be far more cost-effective than building a giant dome, especially considering how limited the engineering capabilities of the era are.


And those engineering capabilities are limited...why, exactly?  In a world with dwarven stonecraft, functional perpetual motion engines, outright transmutation of matter, teleportation, magical levitation, and the countless other physics-defying resources at their disposal?  No, they're not commonly available to peasants, but we're not TALKING about peasants.
 
It's interesting that you reference "the era."  Not "the world," but "the era."  It implies that we're talking about a specific historical period...which, of course, we're not.  We're talking about a fantasy world that happens to conform to medieval Europe in a lot of ways.  It conforms to medieval Europe because...well, just because.  Because the original game was based on heroic fantasy which in turn was based on knightly romances set in medieval Europe.



Quote
Likewise, nobody would take into account high-level spells like Earthquake in basic city design, unless high-level spellcasters are just that common (like in Silverymoon, Myth Drannor, Sigil, etc.).

...or just about anywhere else in the Realms, going by the source material.  And what about, y'know, ACTUAL earthquakes?  They do happen sometimes.




Quote
So yeah, when building these cities, these people almost certainly don't even know that there are Wizards powerful enough to burn down entire cities as a free action every turn.


Are you seriously attempting to argue that in a world with earth-shaking wizards and dragons, the majority of the population is unaware that they exist?  That the typical peasant in the Forgotten Realms doesn't know there's magic out there?  The typical citizen of Greyhawk?

I think that's stretching suspension of disbelief WAY past the breaking point in an attempt to preserve the "The world would still look like medieval Europe!" conceit--and it's NOT the default assumption around which D&D 3.5 is built.

(Then, of course, there's the fact that this entire discussion is about a town that needs more defense precisely because a powerful wizard came zipping down and blew it up.)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 08:30:46 PM by caelic »

Offline JaronK

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2011, 08:24:35 PM »
Are you seriously attempting to argue that in a world with earth-shaking wizards and dragons, the majority of the population is unaware that they exist?  That the typical peasant in the Forgotten Realms doesn't know there's magic out there?  The typical citizen of Greyhawk?

I think that's stretching suspension of disbelief WAY past the breaking point in an attempt to preserve the "The world would still look like medieval Europe!" conceit.

Then again, Commoners don't have ranks in Knowledge Arcana, and thus can't even identify a magical thingy (base DC 10+HD).  Most farmers don't know what a goat is.  So, yeah, they really are that stupid, by RAW.

But seriously, the existence of magic (and of casters in cities) means that most cities (read: places big enough to support it) should have defensive structures that are either underground or in mountains.  And with magic helping the excavation, that's actually reasonable.  In fact, I'd imagine a lot of things would be customized to deal with magic... any hole smaller than 1 square foot blocks Line of Effect, so I'd expect iron gratings made from a few castings of Wall of Iron that have holes which are 3/4 square feet covering many areas that need protection.  This allows light in, but keeps emanations and such out.

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Offline caelic

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2011, 08:32:21 PM »
Then again, Commoners don't have ranks in Knowledge Arcana, and thus can't even identify a magical thingy (base DC 10+HD).  Most farmers don't know what a goat is.  So, yeah, they really are that stupid, by RAW.


...of course, they can walk down the street and ask one of the 7 spellcasters who live in their village of 200.  Again by RAW.


Offline JaronK

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2011, 08:42:00 PM »
Yeah, but due to having no ranks in Knowledge Local, they don't even know that they're human.  So... yeah.

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Offline X-Codes

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2011, 08:46:45 PM »
But seriously, the existence of magic (and of casters in cities) means that most cities (read: places big enough to support it) should have defensive structures that are either underground or in mountains.  And with magic helping the excavation, that's actually reasonable.  In fact, I'd imagine a lot of things would be customized to deal with magic... any hole smaller than 1 square foot blocks Line of Effect, so I'd expect iron gratings made from a few castings of Wall of Iron that have holes which are 3/4 square feet covering many areas that need protection.  This allows light in, but keeps emanations and such out.

JaronK
Again, magic is expensive.  Getting a Druid to cast Stone Shape costs 150 gp per casting, minimum, and takes care of a whole 15 cubic feet of volume from the inside of a mountain.  It really would be more productive to just hire some kobold diggers to do the job, and even then it's going to be prohibitively expensive because it would just take them so long to dig out a hollow big enough to accommodate an entire city.

Then again, Commoners don't have ranks in Knowledge Arcana, and thus can't even identify a magical thingy (base DC 10+HD).  Most farmers don't know what a goat is.  So, yeah, they really are that stupid, by RAW.
...of course, they can walk down the street and ask one of the 7 spellcasters who live in their village of 200.  Again by RAW.
Average level of spellcasters in a village of 200:
Adept: 1 1st-level
Bard: 1 1st-level
Cleric: 1 1st-level
Druid: 1 1st-level
There may or may not be *any* Paladins, Rangers, Wizards, or Sorcerers (the average roll is negative or zero, and the table doesn't say what to do in that case).

On the other hand, in a city of 10,000:
Adept: 2 9th-level, 4 4th-level, 8 2nd-level, 16 1st-level
Bard: as above
Cleric: as above
Druid: as above
Paladin: 2 8th-level, 4 4th-level, no others capable of casting spells
Ranger: as above
Sorcerer: 2 8th-level, 4 4th-level, 8 2nd-level, 16 1st-level
Wizard: as above

So, no casters above 9th-level (meaning 5th-level spells are incredibly rare, and 6th+ are unheard of), and less than 2% of the population is made up of anyone that can cast spells at all.

Offline JaronK

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2011, 08:49:42 PM »
But a proper metropolis has people with 8th level spells living there.  And if that's the capitol of an area, I wouldn't be surprised if they're asked by the king to build up defenses in the border towns once in a while. 

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2011, 08:52:02 PM »
Yeah, but due to having no ranks in Knowledge Local, they don't even know that they're human.  So... yeah.

JaronK
There's a difference between knowing what a human is, knowing what a human looks like, and knowing that humans have a broader skill base than other races, or knowing how to punch a human in just such a way that you collapse their lung and cause them to suffocate.

Yeah, your average guy has probably heard of the iconic monsters, but they probably don't know that you can kill trolls with fire or that there are 10 varieties of true dragons.  They certainly don't know what such creatures are really capable of, and they obviously don't know the first thing about any kind of magic (that's Spellcraft, which is strictly Trained Only and has much higher DCs relative to spell level).

Of course, there are a few guys that really are just that stupid.