Author Topic: Our Town is Under Attack!  (Read 30319 times)

Offline veekie

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2011, 04:46:55 AM »
Which at this point is no longer low resources(magical/alchemical attacks used as anti-material warfare), common combat(they're somewhat more costly than heavy cavalry to maintain).
Or is common enough that the defenders have fliers of their own and they fight for control of the air and the ground battle continues.
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Offline Sjappo

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2011, 03:31:09 PM »
Which at this point is no longer low resources(magical/alchemical attacks used as anti-material warfare), common combat(they're somewhat more costly than heavy cavalry to maintain).
Or is common enough that the defenders have fliers of their own and they fight for control of the air and the ground battle continues.
They are more expensive than common wariors, yes. But vastly more effective.

I see your point. We're looking at this with 21st century eyes. I do think that the designers didn't think this magic thing through. Same as most comic writers don't think the existance of superpowers through. Still I'd rather play in a medieval word with magic than in a 21st century world with science replaced with magic. Which is what happens if you think this through.
"You know you count as artillery when it would be easier to use divination magic to locate your target than a spot check"

Offline Halinn

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2011, 05:40:11 PM »
Wars in the 20th+ century have also shown that if you actually want to conquer a country, you have to send in ground troops after weakening them with planes/fliers. And that buildings are, surprise surprise, easier to defend than empty ground. If you combine that with the fact that it is immensely easier to build buildings and walls than dig great caves (excepting if you are a mid-high level spellcaster or one owes you several days of labor), I think you would still see more traditional defenses. Most of the labor available is commoner/expert, after all.

Offline Zonugal

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2011, 06:00:23 PM »
I imagine there would be castles and such but most of the important structures would have an underground level as a means of safety/escape during a magical/aerial attack. Something akin to the white house.

Offline JaronK

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2011, 06:15:35 PM »
Don't forget also, for extreme height, you have the problem of altitude sickness, carrying capacity limitations(unless you're using dragons or other massive fliers, or using high level magic), and also the problem of your dropped objects taking multiple rounds to hit(inflicting 20d6 when they do), giving the defenders plenty of time to clear out or intercept it.

I'm talking about destroying defensive structures here... like walls and such.  And at only 500 feet up enemies are at -50 to spot you (with a spyglass, it's -25, and the +8 to see a Colossal structure means you can see the big buildings). 

You're not getting altitude sickness or anything at 500 feet up, and you could be carrying even a 20lb rock and do significant damage.  Plus, I don't see anybody getting a chance to intercept said rock on the way down. 

JaronK

Offline Noliar

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2011, 07:53:08 PM »
So, you want flying defenders. There are various options:
  • Cavalry on flying mounts - pegasus, hippogriff, griffin, giant/dire raptors etc.
  • Recruit a squad of a naturally flying race such as raptorans.
  • Supply your  town guard with flight items.
  • Bind air elementals under the town guards control or give them summoning items.
  • Make sure that some of the NPC spellcasters you are trying to attract as residents have the capability and responsibility to take to the air when necessary. *
  • Hot air balloons (nothing can possibly go wrong  :tongue).

*Being a member of the town militia should be a high status role in the community. You have duties and you have to provide your own gear but everyone sees that you can afford to and there may be other perks and rights involved too. This was the case in many cities throughout history from ancient Greece to Renaissance Holland - that's how come the Night Watch could hire Rembrandt to do their group portrait.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2011, 08:10:40 PM »
Don't even need riders, just train attack Hippogriffs to trip the riders from their saddles.  20d6 falling damage hurts.

Offline Noliar

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2011, 08:27:00 PM »
The mounts are far more expensive than soldiers. Sending them up without a rider to supply ranged attacks, mounted combat and more than animal intelligence is a false economy.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2011, 08:29:50 PM »
Meh, depends on how good of a solider it is.  I suppose a 1st-level grunt with basic orders is expendable enough to have them ride up there, although anything that's level 3 or so or higher is relatively valuable.  What's more, when we're talking about Griffons flying up to kill stuff, the Griffons are going to be the critters that are *really* doing the killing.

Offline Noliar

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2011, 08:51:57 PM »
The rider's there to make sure the griffin attacks the right target, doesn't attack friendlies, bothers to fight at all and comes back afterwards. Preferably without hunting livestock and townspeople on the way.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2011, 09:16:18 PM »
The rider's there to make sure the griffin attacks the right target, doesn't attack friendlies, bothers to fight at all and comes back afterwards. Preferably without hunting livestock and townspeople on the way.
Griffons are intelligent, and anything you use instead of Griffons that isn't can be trained like a falcon IRL.  Most of the above is completely unnecessary.

EDIT: yes, I'm advocating using falconers with really big falcons as a defense against aerial attackers.

Offline Noliar

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2011, 09:53:15 PM »
What are you paying the griffons? Or are they slaves? Either way, if they are smart enough to be self directing they fall under my recruit a squad option.

There is a difference in kind between falconry - where you have a bird hunt it's natural prey on your behalf - and sending a bird to fight a dangerous enemy unsupervised. Humans have had thousands of years raining and breeding attack dogs but you still need a handler close by shouting instructions if you want more than random carnage.
Or consider war elephants - pretty smart creatures, long history of domestication, far more powerful in combat than a pre-gunpowder rider can hope to be but in a battle without a mahout all you get is bloody chaos and a dead or fled elephant.

Offline veekie

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2011, 01:02:26 AM »
Wars in the 20th+ century have also shown that if you actually want to conquer a country, you have to send in ground troops after weakening them with planes/fliers. And that buildings are, surprise surprise, easier to defend than empty ground. If you combine that with the fact that it is immensely easier to build buildings and walls than dig great caves (excepting if you are a mid-high level spellcaster or one owes you several days of labor), I think you would still see more traditional defenses. Most of the labor available is commoner/expert, after all.
Basically yeah. The better your ground defenses are, the more costly it is to penetrate, and thus dissuade your opponents.

Underground or bunker style settlements are extremely inconvenient for anything that isn't combat, especially if you don't make use of a lot of magic. They are also vulnerable to quakes, much more so than surface structures, and are isolated from the resources most humanoid races want(fresh water, fresh air, vegetables, meat). They're low on room. They also make it unnecessary for opponents to field air forces and limit your ability to field your own. They're finally, bad business for small humanoid/goblinoid invasions, as they can pack more units into a given space and swarm your bunker.
Theres probably a role for magically supplied 'core' bunkers but they'd only be for rulers and other vital personnel to retreat to.

Walls increase the costs, any ground based attack has to go over or under, which can be countered(air force, summoners on call, archers) or negated(deep wall foundations, real walls had to deal with sappers too, though they probably didn't have to deal with bulettes). Air attacks that can bypass cheap countermeasures are low accuracy(dropping rocks and bombs while you have a -50 penalty to spot against a structure with a +20 bonus to being spotted), and far more easily replicated with siege engines, which does not risk being countered by a local air force and can pack much more of a load.
They're also relatively cheap to construct, even unskilled labor can provide a man high wall of packed dirt and logs, and skilled labor(especially if you have big, strong races like ogres or minotaurs resident) dramatically increases the height and quality of walls.
Walls didn't go out of style because of aircraft, they just weren't cost efficient because nobody uses melee based invasions anymore and they're kinda inconvenient to urban sprawl.

Moats meanwhile, add a bigger complication, any invaders would need to bridge them, which means additional load when they approach. A 'fresh' moat fed by rivers has an added bonus, sappers and diggers in general risk drowning if they hit the wrong area.

Towers round it out. If you have fliers and mages, you most definitely want towers for vantage points and launching posts. No sense wasting time gaining height, and they're also easy to defend from any direction.

On the attack side, if you use fliers, they would not be making high runs against the walls, you have better tools for that. The better option would be a low flying scouting run(go high over the walls, and then dive and pull out before they assemble to kill your ass), or precision strikes(which are also low flying due to the distance penalties) to destroy key structures.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Soundwave

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2011, 01:54:02 AM »
Walls that bow inward gently provide excellent fields of fire, link together with towers to provide additional elevation for directing friendly forces.

Moats are great for slowing assaults endless decanter of water and coring right down to bedrock as previously mentioned are excellent.

Gargoyles youve said you already have to help with AA, ballista emplacements on towers as well as emergency glitterdust/truestrike wands and militia trained in their use are excellent to help reveal and strike flying enemies. Doubly so if you can get a widespell metamagic enhanced glitterdust wand ( not sure if thats allowed).

Designed defenses to your city should be a fun exercise in and of itself.

Weirdstone
(XP Value: 25,000; GP Value: 65,000)
This rare item looks like a fist-sized, faceted diamond. If set upon any solid, level surface, it floats upward to stop 3 feet above the surface, emitting chiming sounds at random times and glowing with a pulsing, white, internal radiance. The stone is actually a cut-glass construct, but it emits a powerful effect. A weirdstone prohibits all phasing, ethereal states, translocational magics (such as teleport, pass plant, and dimension door), scrying and divination magics, and astral travelers from occurring within, entering into, or looking into, a 6-mile radius of it. This prohibition includes psionics, spelllike abilities, and natural creature powers, such as the abilities of phase spiders and xorn. The spherical area of effect extends overhead and underground when the weirdstone is activated; the area is simply closed off.
A weirdstone can be deactivated by the touch of the being who activated it, who may seize and place it in a pouch or on an irregular surface, whereupon it is deactivated. A weirdstone can also be deactivated by breaking it. A successful strike against AC 2 upon it results in it having to make an item saving throw vs. crushing blow; if it succeeds it is unaffected, but failure means it is destroyed.

This can help shutdown pesky wizards if you can get one.

Also trapmaking following the DMG rules is fantastic for creating all manner of devices to help defend your town not to mentioned infinite food, disease removal etc.

Make your town a deathtrap so lethal that the townsfolk themselves smirk at the thought of someone attacking. Like in: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php


The spell forbiddance can be used to great effect as well to prevent foes from dominating your airspace  easily or even attacking the foundations of your walls.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 01:56:00 AM by Soundwave »

Offline Harald

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2011, 11:43:45 AM »
the Weirdstone sounds interesting, but is it one you created, or is it from an official book ?
"-Lady-Captain, we detect 20 hostile vessels against us,  and Erasmus Haarlock's Spear of Destiny ! What are your orders ?
-RAMMING SPEED !

final result : 6 slaughts vessels, 4 imperial frigates, 2 imperial cruisers destroyed. Haarlock sent into the warp. 0 losses. Flawless Victory.

Offline caelic

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2011, 04:08:04 PM »
the Weirdstone sounds interesting, but is it one you created, or is it from an official book ?


Not sure if it was updated for 3.5, but Weirdstones have been around since at least second edition in official FR material--so I presume he's quoting from an official book.  It's certainly not player-created.

Offline Soundwave

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2011, 05:04:35 PM »
Its an FR item, I dont have a direct quote from the sourcebut im looking for it.

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2011, 08:33:23 PM »
Player's Guide to Faerun p.124.
Hmm.

Offline Soundwave

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2011, 04:02:39 AM »
and there ya have it!

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Our Town is Under Attack!
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2011, 05:07:49 AM »
It's a little expensive though...250,000 gold pieces.
Hmm.