4th's little tricks

[SorO_Lost]

We had a thread like this on the old board started by me but the last update was applied in 2008 (artificer was just a preview then). Basically the goal of the thread wasn't 3rd is more broken than 4th or proof that 4th is broken but a list of really powerful tricks. I'd like to see how things have come since then.

For now, here is the old list. With some comments.

Broken
1. Intimidate's auto win against bloodied foes, no matter how much healing, backup, or desire to die fighting they have.
2. The wall trick. Create a wall, shove them though it a few times. Watch them bleed.
3. You can give a -13+ penalty on saves, what? You can't possibly save EVAR now? Too damn bad. How?
4. The ability to loot the world within one turn as an epic ranger. How?
5. Swordmages and their ability to block attacks dealt to other party members. How?
6. Duplicate for unlimited money. How?
7. Another epic thing, Immorality = a Warforged under the command of a Legendary General. How?

Looks Broken, but it could just be high powered.
1. Griffons giving you two extra attacks.
2. 23+ damage using an at-will melee power as a first level character. How?
3. Oversized 2d6 (or 2d8?) Bloodclaw weapons with Brutal 2.
4. Battlerager Vigor, convince your DM those orphans were a threat for unlimited stackable temporary HP.
5. Umber Hulk's minor action area based daze attack.
6. Flame Seed, too lazy to detail it all here but it out damages cloud of daggers by a large amount.
8. Staff of Missile Mastery. It pretty much doubles the bonus when using magic missile. I could be knee jerking here, but I doubt it.

Pre-errata, aka it is printed as broken material, but fixed after we all abused it. Probably should just remove this.
1. Blade Cascade, nothing says die like semi-infinite attacks.

Play Test, because as they found out, play testing 4E for a few months with a biaist group does not reveal a damn thing.
1. Artificers & a real unlimited damage combo. Thanks to people finding it now it won't get printed that way, other wise you can bet it would have. Still work?

[Childe]

For now, here is the old list. With some comments.

Broken
1. Intimidate's auto win against bloodied foes, no matter how much healing, backup, or desire to die fighting they have.
2. The wall trick. Create a wall, shove them though it a few times. Watch them bleed.
3. You can give a -13+ penalty on saves, what? You can't possibly save EVAR now? Too damn bad. How?
4. The ability to loot the world within one turn as an epic ranger. How?
5. Swordmages and their ability to block attacks dealt to other party members. How?
6. Duplicate for unlimited money. How?
7. Another epic thing, Immorality = a Warforged under the command of a Legendary General. How?

The wall trick (more commonly called "zone abuse," at least on 339), is still rampant, with many powers eligible for such trickery, and massive slides easily accessible.
Save penalties have changed a bit. Many of the save penalties now only apply to a single saving throw and then go away. It is still possible to stack some very high continuous save penalties, but I don't know that it's -13 anymore.
Swordmages blocking attacks is simply a manner of immediate interrupts. Using an Aegis of Shielding Swordmage and any of a number of their immediate interrupt powers that can be combined with their aegis, they can push/slide/etc. enemies away from allies, thus stopping an attack in progress. Eventually this couples with power recovery mechanics; or, ultimately, Arcane Sword's 30th-level feature can make one of those powers at-will.
For Duplicate, I think I wrote on that in my (admittedly abandoned *cough*) handbook on rituals. It should still exist on BG. My favorite is still Share Husk, however. Piloting a Tarrasque until it's attacked is just too funny.

Looks Broken, but it could just be high powered.
1. Griffons giving you two extra attacks.
2. 23+ damage using an at-will melee power as a first level character. How?
3. Oversized 2d6 (or 2d8?) Bloodclaw weapons with Brutal 2.
4. Battlerager Vigor, convince your DM those orphans were a threat for unlimited stackable temporary HP.
5. Umber Hulk's minor action area based daze attack.
6. Flame Seed, too lazy to detail it all here but it out damages cloud of daggers by a large amount.
8. Staff of Missile Mastery. It pretty much doubles the bonus when using magic missile. I could be knee jerking here, but I doubt it.

Griffons don't get a lot of your damage mods.
The at-will charge damage is a problem at most levels. I think it's just more noticeable at first because, until paragon, the damage doesn't really scale with HP per level.
Oversized only exists on Bugbears, which have no feat support. They can still certainly deal damage, but since the better damage comes from other mods and not [W], they're not broken, just powerful.
Bloodclaw weapons were nerfed.
Bag of Rats.
Flaming Sphere and Cloud of Daggers aren't really comparable. One is at-will, one is daily.
You're knee-jerking about magic missile. That power was nerfed into oblivion. It needs all the help it can get. The only good use it has now (besides the occasional minion-popping, which is really done better in many cases by AoEs anyway) is for Inevitable Shot abuse; and since that's a rather cheesy loop, it's not exactly something that's going to stay around at the table without getting shot at by the DM.

Pre-errata, aka it is printed as broken material, but fixed after we all abused it. Probably should just remove this.
1. Blade Cascade, nothing says die like semi-infinite attacks.

Maybe keep it as a historical view? But the list might get really long.

Play Test, because as they found out, play testing 4E for a few months with a biaist group does not reveal a damn thing.
1. Artificers & a real unlimited damage combo. Thanks to people finding it now it won't get printed that way, other wise you can bet it would have. Still work?

The brutal combo was nerfed. It no longer works to give d4 & 2d4 weapons unlimited damage rolls.

I really do want to recommend, for either Broken or Overpowered (though I'd really say Broken based on the numbers I've gotten), the Assassin's Shroud by RAW (my examination of what the RAW really is is in this forum). The Assassin's Shroud by RAI is horrible, and the Assassin's Shroud by RAW makes Assassin easily one of the deadliest classes in the game in terms of pure damage, especially by late Paragon, early Epic (but they can definitely contend as early as level 1 for some good damage, and by early Paragon they're doing some awesome tricks with extra rolls).

[GreyICE]

Let me try and address where those stand one by one:

1. Intimidate's auto win against bloodied foes, no matter how much healing, backup, or desire to die fighting they have.

Not broken.  It takes a standard action and, as always, is subject to the DM.  If the DM decides that the creature has desire to keep fighting, they keep fighting.  It basically is a way for intimidate users to force people to surrender/flee, which gives some fairly solid roleplay opportunities.

2. The wall trick. Create a wall, shove them though it a few times. Watch them bleed.

Zone abuse is getting addressed soon.  Basically this is an issue with scaling on certain things and slides/pushes.

Three is fixed, four sounds like one of those 'questionable reading of the RAW' things that no sane DM ever allows to happen. 

5. Swordmages and their ability to block attacks dealt to other party members.
Virtually every defender does.  The trick is to send someone flying backwards and prone them with an opportunity attack.  It's not broken, it's an intended feature.  Some of this stuff hits hard enough to bloody a striker in one hit.  You like your defender. 

6. Duplicate for unlimited money.

No idea.  Prolly handled by DM Fiat.  (similar to how all infinite loops are always handled)

7. Another epic thing, Immorality = a Warforged under the command of a Legendary General.

Dude, half of epic destinies have immortality as a class feature. 


Like literally, they CANNOT DIE. 

[SorO_Lost]

Let me try and address where those stand one by one:

If you stop and think, this thread is based off a repost dated back to before the Artificer came out or probably when the first FR book was released given it's inclusion of Swordmage. Around that time, Brutal and Battlerager Vigor were just printed and Legendary General was the only Epic Destiny that was immune to damage.

Now I've reposted it and I want to know what has changed. If Swordmage isn't powerful because every defender class has a method to block attacks now then what is?

Sliding people though "zone" effects like dribbling a ball is getting nerf? I'd say the problem still persists. And don't forget, there was hundreds of people expecting errata to be finished or even some off hand article after the conclusion of 3rd to wrap things up. 4th came out and WotC immediately halted all product support for 3rd. Their working on publishing 5th edition right now, don't expect much out of them.

[GreyICE]

3E is quite unfixable.  Unless you want to try and fix the nature of the ENTIRE SYSTEM that encourages casting Save vs. Death spells on every BBEG, leading to high level being short, brutal blast exchanges between the casters while the martial classes sit there looking like chumps (or dealing with the cannon fodder).   As for the rest of your list, I think you need to take additional ranks in 'literacy.' 

Swordmage was NEVER 'too powerful' because it had a mechanic for mitigating the damage your allies took.  It was literally never an issue with the system at all.   It's like saying 'well, there's an issue with fighters because they use melee weapons.'

Legendary General was never 'immune to damage.'  It's 30th level capstone made it so that your allies could not go unconscious just because they had 0 or fewer hp and could not die from negative hp as long as the Legendary General was at 1 hp or more..  That's not out of line for a level 30 power.  I mean 'Undying Warrior' from the same book had a level 30 capstone that began 'When you die, you can return to life at the start of your next turn.  Doing so doesn't require an action.'  Godhunter allowed you, at level 30, to ignore a HIT from any creature higher level then you (aka deities) and gain bonuses and powers from doing so.  It's level 30.  You're expected to be going toe to toe with Lloth and Vecna, for pete's sake.  That's not the sort of stuff your average group is going to have access to, or need.  Warforged don't make death saving throws, so the one mitigating factor (that failing death saving throws still killed you) is gone, but the fact of the matter is that any competent enemy (and all your enemies are competent, usually divinely so at 30th level) knows that killing the Legendary General is the goal.  Eyes on the prize and all.

But I can tell this is just ignorant propaganda being spewed by someone who doesn't even play the system, so it's probably pointless to talk to you about it   Treating 30th level powers as if they were common...

P.S.  I like how you said that it's unlikely stuff will ever get fixed when one of the items on that list (save debuff stacking) was fixed (mostly by typing certain untyped things and fixing a few interactions). 

[SorO_Lost]

3E is quite unfixable.  Unless you want to try and fix the nature of the ENTIRE SYSTEM that encourages casting Save vs. Death spells on every BBEG, leading to high level being short, brutal blast exchanges between the casters while the martial classes sit there looking like chumps (or dealing with the cannon fodder).   As for the rest of your list, I think you need to take additional ranks in 'literacy.'

Perhaps you should? Not only is this 4E, but I even included a preamble about not caring about 3E. In fact, that seems to be your problem into it's self.

But I can tell this is just ignorant propaganda being spewed by someone who doesn't even play the system, so it's probably pointless to talk to you about it.

You are not coming off like you wish to contribute, or want to help educate that some things are no longer necessarily as powerful as before due to later published classes being stronger. All you can do portray this idea in your mind that 4E is so balanced not a single thing in it is over powered. And you'll flame anyone that says otherwise with your comparisons of 3rd edition.

Hell read the rest of your post. I spoke of the likelihood of seeing errata issued for zones and you half (quarter?) read it and thought I was talking about saves. You bitch Swordmage is balanced, then make a huge deal out of a level 30 ability doing the same thing but with some bonuses because it's level 30 ~omg!. You're out on a mission, 4E cannot be optimized and it is a shiny plate of balance. In a forum dedicated to Min/Max'ing none the less like some Star Wars nerd at a Star Trek convention. If anything needs to be said about 3E in here, it's that we got rid of some of the people like you.

For the record, I did play 4E and found it bland. Not balanced, not broken, not OMFG FAN BOY LOVE, just bland.

[GreyICE]

I am educating people.  And one of the things that I'm educating them about is that you are evangelizing about the garbage that is Pathfinder/3E

Let us consider the following:
- I noted that they fixed the stacking save debuff issue with errata
- I noted that they have stated that they are aware of the issue of forced movement/zone interactions, as well as the house rules that have sprung up (no more than 1 zone application/round), and the effect (some zones are designed and balanced around 2-3 applications per round, or even 2 applications per turn with sufficient time investment). 

You state the following:

Sliding people though "zone" effects like dribbling a ball is getting nerf? I'd say the problem still persists. And don't forget, there was hundreds of people expecting errata to be finished or even some off hand article after the conclusion of 3rd to wrap things up. 4th came out and WotC immediately halted all product support for 3rd. Their working on publishing 5th edition right now, don't expect much out of them.

5th edition is a rumor that is based around the following:

1) Book publication has slowed

Counterpoint
- Token, Tile, and accessory production has risen dramatically.  Given that each edition has had a number of books that sold poorly (probably costing them money), and that indeed they've refocused away from certain types of products that historically sell very poorly (Martial Power, Arcane Power) to ones that sell well (Setting/fluff presentations, such as Heroes of the Feywild)
- New forms of D&D have arisen such as Lair Assault and D&D Encounters
- D&D Insider gives them a viable, non-publication based income source for maintaining a system

2) Pathfinder is apparently popular

Counterpoint
- WotC has always welcomed the rise of other RPGs, as they have held that the larger the market, the better for everyone.  Indeed, AD&D was over 50% of the market at one time (hell, at one time it D&D 1st edition was 100% of the RPG market), but since then the market has grown by a factor of at least 20 (that's 2000%).  A share of an enormous pie is better than the entirety of a very small pie. 


-----

There is no WotC confirmation, no basis for the rumor, and any supposed 5E is at least 2-3 years out.  And yet, you state that I am being unhelpfun.

No.

You are spreading rumors that have no basis in fact
You are ignoring WotC's past actions to state that they will do something SOLELY on the basis of 3E
You are ignoring the fact that you have been told that many of the so-called problems you list aren't problems, but simple statements of reality rephrased as problems (there is a problem because Wizards can cast spells everyone!)
You ignore, blatantly, things about the system that are so painfully basic that 12 year old children who have never played D&D understand them.  Namely, that powers you receive at maximum level and powers you receive at level 1 aren't at all the same thing (and lets add in that at max level you are GODHUNTING, and that maybe one campaign in a hundred will care about that level)

And you are accusing me of being unhelpful.

You just admitted to not playing 4E, in the 4E forums.  Let me assure you of the following:

As a dungeon master, 4E is the best edition of D&D ever produced.  It allows more creativity, more interesting encounters, more balanced setups, and gives me less work dealing with problem gamers than any edition ever produced, or any variant on any other edition.

Frankly, most of the people who don't like it are either people who don't play it, or a subset of said problem gamers (who are unhappy that they can't just roll up a human cleric with DM and Persist spell as their feats, and know that they will 'win D&D'). 

With a side that occasionally you'll just get a bad DM, or a new DM who runs an encounter as-is with no real effort to be creative or interesting because he feels like he 'should DM because he always plays and has never DMed.' 

Let me assure anyone reading this: I know far more about 4E than SorO does. 

P.S.  How are the fixes for Cleric, Druid, and Wizard breaking the entire game in half coming along? 

[SorO_Lost]

I am educating people.  And one of the things that I'm educating them about is that you are evangelizing about the garbage that is Pathfinder/3E

Which as you keep missing, isn't something I care about. You don't see me even comparing D&D to  GRUPS/Hackmaster/M&M/Marvel Heroes or w/e even tabletop game I learn next nor anyone else do you? The only guy in the D&D 3rd and 4th sections comparing different games is you.

1. You are spreading rumors that have no basis in fact
2. You are ignoring WotC's past actions to state that they will do something SOLELY on the basis of 3E
3. You are ignoring the fact that you have been told that many of the so-called problems you list aren't problems, but simple statements of reality rephrased as problems (there is a problem because Wizards can cast spells everyone!)
4. You ignore, blatantly, things about the system that are so painfully basic that 12 year old children who have never played D&D understand them.  Namely, that powers you receive at maximum level and powers you receive at level 1 aren't at all the same thing (and lets add in that at max level you are GODHUNTING, and that maybe one campaign in a hundred will care about that level)

1. Citation on zone errata coming out and if it is sufficient? (there isn't one and you don't know)
2. Citation that WotC has ever continued to support the previous edition of an RPG they published? (D&D is the only one)
3. Actually I've been told they were "errata"'ed, to what and how to things stand I ask? 3E SUCKS is the only reply I've gotten back.
4. You're still talking about how great 4E is compared to 3E, who is ignoring who? And you cite things like epic is supposed to be broken or the DM is supposed to fix your game. It's like listening to a guy argue that the Monk is supposed to be balanced.

And you are accusing me of being unhelpful.

You are.

You just admitted to not playing 4E, in the 4E forums.

Really?

For the record, I did play 4E and found it bland. Not balanced, not broken, not OMFG FAN BOY LOVE, just bland.

As a dungeon master, 4E is the best edition of D&D ever produced.  It allows more creativity, more interesting encounters, more balanced setups, and gives me less work dealing with problem gamers than any edition ever produced, or any variant on any other edition.

Which has nothing to do to do with the topic.

Let me assure anyone reading this: I know far more about 4E than SorO does.

Funny, if your ability to read the forum is any clue I'd say by knowing a color that appears on the cover surpasses your knowledge. Did you get that idea from me saying none of the list has been updated since the Artificer preview which is probably based on when I stopped caring to follow 4E?

P.S.  How are the fixes for Cleric, Druid, and Wizard breaking the entire game in half coming along?

Marginally more than your posts are doing to remain on topic.

Here is an idea. Let's agree you're an idiot and since you won't stay the hell out of my thread, or on topic, or be useful, and won't do anything more just sit there trolling me about how 3E has some sort of bearing. I lock this thing and later I'll just copy and paste an updated list gathered from another forum at a later date. I'd get my list, Min/Max would have some basic 4E optimization, and you are forced to stfu. It's win/win.