Author Topic: Mindstealer Drone  (Read 27174 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2012, 07:00:03 PM »
Regarding "not empty at all"
You're skipping a lot of stuff.
LA gives you nothing. Just having levels in Mindstealer Drone grants you HP, an HD that grants you additional HP for high Con mods, 3 HDs for your abilities scaling with HD, BAB, saves, skills, feats, 3 steps closer to +1 to an ability score at every 4th level.

On top of all it gives over LAs for not being one, it grants goodies.
-A ranged negative level touch attack.
-The ability to Memory Drain people for practical uses and to render many enemies completely defeated as long as you're around (very useful in a world where stuff comes back from the dead)
-You are grossly underestimating the feats. As I said, since they bypass all requirements, you can net feats that essentially saves you the trouble getting more than 3 feats. Like Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
-The BAB allows you to get a great BAB even if you take minimal BAB classes/PrCs after your 3 mindstealer drone levels.
-Ability to replace an ability score is incredible. All these Absorb Ability options could have been granted at different levels instead of all at once, if the class had more than 3 levels to it.
-Movement speed. For some monsters that is worth a level by itself.
-Infiltrator

@Osle
By the way, the Will DC for Psychic Drain is currently DC 10+1/2 HD+Will save
Sounds like a typo.

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2012, 07:17:44 PM »
Hi Anomander,

Reading your arguments, I think you are right - the additional abilities do make it more powerful than Gestalt.  I stand corrected.

Best,
David

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2012, 05:58:35 PM »

Made extra feats need their prerequisites again.

As for “hunting” for forms, you're making it sound much easier than it actually is. The “optimal” targets are monsters that happen to be one HD behind you, however many monsters have HD over their CR so they're useless, or they'll be so less power level that they don't really make you that much stronger even with Psychic Archive. Even the monsters you find in regular ecounters aren't an assured source of power, as you need to take them alive, which is always easier said than done. A necromancer in contrast does just fine with killed enemies, and his power will indeed skyrocket if he goes “hunting” for top-quality bodies.  Hiring mercenaries just to kill them is risky business in a world where necromancers and mind flayers already exist. Aka they know there's things out there that would hire strong dudes just to desecrate their bodies, so they're assured to have contigencies for betrayal by their employers, if nothing else other mercenaries banding against you.

So basically, in order to have the “ideal” scenario where you have alternate arcane/divine/martial/whatever alternate forms on the optimal level is only possible if you really go out of your way searching for them, which the rest of your party will probably be not very amused with (the BBEG will thank you for the extra time to advance its diabolic plans tough). And you have to repeat that at every level up.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2012, 12:41:26 AM »
The “optimal” targets are monsters that happen to be one HD behind you, however many monsters have HD over their CR so they're useless, or they'll be so less power level that they don't really make you that much stronger even with Psychic Archive.
The way monsters are made is in the favor of the Mindstealer because most creatures with just a few/bad abilities tend to have a large HD compared to their CR while creatures with good/numerous abilities tend to have a lower HD than their CR: Mindstealers have more to gain from these better monsters. Creatures with templates only makes them tastier.

You need to take them alive, which is always easier said than done.
Hehe. Depends. A few points of nonlethal damage is often all you need to drop them unconscious instead of dropping dead.
Speaking of which, you might want the 5 dmg dealt per fake negative level to be nonlethal. It'd suck if you captured a target and killed it with the negative level damage before it reducing its HD to zero.
The more troublesome pain is that often the enemy with the good abilities is a PC-like race built to give the players a challenge and is usually of equal CR or one higher, so if you want to absorb it you have to put him in the freezer until you level up by beating the hell outta them, properly drain them to a coma with minimal memories and locking them up somewhere safe.

Hiring mercenaries just to kill them is risky business in a world where necromancers and mind flayers already exist.
I guess that'd depend on the campaign and the mercenaries' level but a Mindstealer Drone should be properly equipped to get away with it at least once. Taking the appearance of other dudes and whatnot.
I wonder; it seems that Change Shape makes you physically reshape your body into the likeness of the eaten dude, so that is really your actual body - so stuff like True Seeing would see your stolen appearance instead of your regular shape. Is that correct?

So basically, in order to have the “ideal” scenario where you have alternate arcane/divine/martial/whatever alternate forms on the optimal level is only possible if you really go out of your way searching for them, which the rest of your party will probably be not very amused with (the BBEG will thank you for the extra time to advance its diabolic plans tough). And you have to repeat that at every level up.
It is still immensely powerful even if you are a level or two behind in some of your optimal stolen general abilities. The less ideal scenario where you find only one good victim per level gives you great bonus power without the best of the amazing flexibility.
But you raise the obvious concern that would come up in a campaign: if a DM accepts such a monster among the PCs, it is only good sport that he gives the player opportunities to get good picks from time to time (such as a form of treasure). Unless the DM has a tooth against it and allowed it anyway, it would be unfair to penalize the player by doing stuff like only sending hordes of giants at him.
On the other hand, this class can be used by the DM too, not just the player. So a Mindstealer Drone encounter that absorbed one or two dudes that were its HD -1 to -3 would actually be much stronger than its logical CR.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 12:48:02 AM by Anomander »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2012, 05:18:42 AM »
The way monsters are made is in the favor of the Mindstealer because most creatures with just a few/bad abilities tend to have a large HD compared to their CR while creatures with good/numerous abilities tend to have a lower HD than their CR: Mindstealers have more to gain from these better monsters. Creatures with templates only makes them tastier.

If I were a DM, then I'd require the monsters be based of of Oslecamo's monster classes, so that the CR = HD.

...

Really the discussion right now should not be "why is this not balanced", but instead, "how to make it balanced while still keeping the original spirit".

...

I think "gestalt-like + switchable on one side" is the basis.  The question is how to do this without requiring too much paperwork (which, I believe, is why oslecamo went for bonuses rather than actual gestalt ... too much paperwork otherwise).  I think the main question is, "how can we make one side changable, including feats, skills, etc., while not making it overpowered".

Best,
David

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2012, 06:41:57 PM »
-Monsters with low HD and good/numerous abilities do exist, but they're actually pretty scarce. Proof:dragons. Lots of them, with lots of abilities and lots of HD. While on the MM only some celestials can fall on the first category, and it doesn't get better on the splatbooks. And since those monsters are relatively squishly and less bloodthirsty, they're also more likely to pull back when things go bad rather than fighting to the end. And to suceed with said variety of abilities.
-Heavily templated monsters do favor the mindstealer, but any DM knows they're little more than walking treasure for the players, as big CR increase from templates never really make up for the missing HD. Any necromancer would love to stumble upon some Paragon undeads to command (the original template), while a good cleric would easily turn them. A skilled DM advances the monster HD some before adding templates to keep them up with the CR.
-Monsters in D&D don't have hanging HP bars over them, so you never know how close to finished they actually are. And as levels and damage goes up, it's easier and easier to overkill an opponent straight into dead.
-No, negative levels stay dealing actual damage. Geting the enemy down to drain their memories isn't suposed to be trivial.
-True Seeing reveals the actual mindstealer drone, just as it pierces polymorph and shapechange.
-If a DM wants to screw over the players, plenty of better options than the mindstealer drone class.
-And I believe I had already said this, but I'm Dming a campaign in this very forums with this class, and honestly it hasn't caused that much trouble so far. Excellent intelegence gathering from captured enemy mooks, but the party will rather overkill the stronger enemies than risk them get another attack that may kill a player. The gnoll/vampire and daughter of silence/custom cold class PCs have both proven drastically more dangerous. I've made some minor changes so far, but the current HD limits stay until I find an actual problem on the playtesting.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 07:12:00 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2012, 11:31:50 PM »
If I were a DM, then I'd require the monsters be based of of Oslecamo's monster classes, so that the CR = HD
Although it is getting there, not every monster has been osle'd yet.

As to "how to make it balanced while still keeping the original spirit", here's a go at it:

*Removed*
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 07:34:35 PM by Anomander »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2012, 12:52:05 AM »
I started to reply in a very detailed way, but I don't want my overall thoughts to be obscured by details.

At a high level:

1)  Re: HD slot approach -- It is Vastly less good.  Basically, you can only ever have 1 "good" form (with 2 levels of "filler" to pay for the need to eat).  And, given how hard it will probably be to find the new forms you like, you basically will spend most all of an adventure in 1-2 forms, without really having the ability to change to another equivalently good form.

2)  There are many limits put into abilities to keep them from getting to powerful.  I understand.  However, why spread the abilities out over 17 levels?  This means you are like the original, but 2 levels lower, and without many important abilities.  This is too big a gimp.

3)  The whole Minstealer master is a really nice touch (Memory Dump, Mindstealer Master).  While I much prefer Oslecamo's version (for fun and! for balance), this is a great and flavorful addition, which I hope he will incorporate!

Very Best,
David

Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2012, 12:13:41 PM »
1)  Re: HD slot approach -- It is Vastly less good.  Basically, you can only ever have 1 "good" form (with 2 levels of "filler" to pay for the need to eat).  And, given how hard it will probably be to find the new forms you like, you basically will spend most all of an adventure in 1-2 forms, without really having the ability to change to another equivalently good form.
If it isn't enough, more HD slots would fix the issue. Maybe double HD.
I think it is balanced with the fact you can keep the HDs you like, steal from another and so on. If you want a specific class, they keep adding up. At high level, if you find a creature you that has a bunch of levels that interest you, you just dump your whole slots to get the new ones.
I like my incorporation because you are never out of options if you cannot find proper prey for your level.
-If you are level 17, you can eat a bunch of level 4 adventurers and still get as much as if you ate a level 15.
-If you find a level 21 super-dude and manage to beat him with your group, you can still absorb the HDs you can still get out of him instead of being entirely off-limit, so I think it is perfectly well suited for high level play.
If you have the Memory Dump ability, you could even keep the high level food on the side, go to your master to get drained for more HD slots and then go eat the entire HD of the high level food you put in the fridge.

By granting it more HD slots, it would be able to switch between at least two big strings of HD, but the original monster was more of a "find one prey at a time". So the idea was to switch when you find better, or a more advantageous mix of levels from several creatures.

2)  There are many limits put into abilities to keep them from getting to powerful.  I understand.  However, why spread the abilities out over 17 levels?  This means you are like the original, but 2 levels lower, and without many important abilities.  This is too big a gimp.
I spread them over the levels because for what they grant the designed level is more proper balance-wise.
The only ability I think could be acquired at an earlier level is Dual Assimilation.
However, because the limiters are set a the amount of replaced levels, I agree with you that they can be acquired at the beginning and automatically progress as you take more levels in MD.
The only ones I think I'd keep a bit later would be Absorb (Feat), (Aligned Shape), (Extraordinary) and (Supernatural), if only to avoid getting advanced versions of polymorph and co long before everyone else can even cast those.

3)  The whole Minstealer master is a really nice touch (Memory Dump, Mindstealer Master).  While I much prefer Oslecamo's version (for fun and! for balance), this is a great and flavorful addition, which I hope he will incorporate!
Thanks.  :tongue
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 12:18:38 PM by Anomander »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2012, 06:18:18 PM »
HD slot Issues and possible solutions
(click to show/hide)

Absorb (Feat), (Aligned Shape), (Extraordinary) and (Supernatural) delayed

(click to show/hide)

Simplicity

Case 5:  Lots of Paperwork
(click to show/hide)

Good thing #1 - play what you want

Keep it fun

(click to show/hide)
Good thing #2 - easy to develop
(click to show/hide)

Oslecamo

1)  What do you think about Anomander and  I breaking this discussion into a new thread within this forum, and eventually hashing out a different version of a Mindstealer Drone?  I feel that we are almost cluttering up what you've done at this point.

2)  I still really like what you've got, but would still like that you can use summoned forms and their feats. 
* It's unforetunate that you can't use summoned creatures, etc., because that does mean you can't play what you want (if you want) which is a great shame
* It's unforetunate that you can't reform your feats into those of the form ... this should be added somehow because that is a lot of some builds (fighters, Shadowcraft mages, Metamagic Specialist, etc.)
* Perhaps these 2 powerups could be balanced by making the class less gestalt, and extending it further?  With the further levels letting you mix-and-match more, or get more mindstealer master goodness?

Best,
David


Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2012, 11:01:20 PM »
HD slot Issues and possible solutions
Case 1: Can't take advantage of monsters that are low level
Problem: low level mooks only stack if they have class levels

That isn't a problem. You cannot be more ogre than an ogre can be. It doesn't make any sense.
If the ogre was Ogre 3/Barbarian 2, you could steal all those HDs and be the same.
My system allows you to take the 3 levels of Ogre and get HDs from something else as well.
If you ate an Ogre 3, then a Warblade 3, you could mimic a Ogre 3/Warblade 3 if you took their HDs.
A PC that took the 3 levels of Ogre cannot get more Ogre levels, why should the MD do?

Level equivalencies would make hunting even easier than it already is and cheapen out the entire experience.
If you ate an Ogre 3 and a Troll 4, you could be Ogre 3/Troll 3 if you cared, then switch to Ogre 2/Troll 4 the next day. If levels were equivalent, just eating an Ogre would allow you to multiclass every monster in the book. Fluff wise, it doesn't work either since the memories of an ogre are probably quite different than a troll, in example.

Case 2: transitioning is painful
On the other hand, transitions are actually possible. The current system is all about finding exactly what you want, then finding it again. This one actually allows you to get what you aim for and keep on improving it. If you want to switch to something entirely different, then you can try to find exactly what you want, like the current system. But with this you can actually get something close to what what you want, then steer it closer with other victims.
I agree that you can if you get a new idea in mind, the transition could take long if you take partial HDs instead of waiting to find something something better.

Yet, as I said, increasing the base Pool is a solution. What I think would work best are Mindstealer Drone feats allowing you to get a better pool. Since you eventually get the ability to swap feats around, you could even trade those when you don't need them for a transition.
Better yet, it keeps the spirit of the original creature intact; looking for one big prey at a time or snuffing in large amounts of weak people.

Absorb (Feat), (Aligned Shape), (Extraordinary) and (Supernatural) delayed
Case 3:  Gimped below level 8
I think you misunderstood the way it works. You get class abilities. When feats are a class ability, like with the fighter, you get 'hem. Absorb (Feat) only allows you to trade feats you already have for feats some dude you absorbed got. I think I should even put a clause on Absorb (Feat) to state you cannot trade your feats for feats granted as a class features, like a monk's.

If you want to play casters t'ill you can shuffle feats around, nothing stops a player from getting caster feats just as a caster would. Or combat feats, or any other one. Getting that ability only widens your versatility when you reach it. With what the MD class offers before then, your options are already wide enough to keep you on par with the other classes.

Case 4:  Don't get to play monsters with many cool abilities
I think you misunderstood the way (Extraordinary) and (Supernatural) works.
Those are mainly for monsters that are not already part of Osle's list.
As I said, when you get class abilities, you get 'hem. If a monster class has Growth as a class ability, it isn't the creature's 'base size', its a class ability; you get it.
There is a difference in getting class abilities and something a monster has just for being the monster, and this is when those two Absorb abilities come into the picture.

Case 5:  Lots of Paperwork
 :???
In your example, you have it absorb 6 different creatures, so 6 sheets the DM can just hand you over.
Osle's version allows you to keep track of as many people as your HD, so that is 10 sheets.
You keep track of 6 sheets instead of 10. How is that more paperwork?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:06:17 PM by Anomander »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2012, 12:16:15 AM »
Case 1: Can't take advantage of monsters that are low level
Problem: low level mooks only stack if they have class levels

That isn't a problem. You cannot be more ogre than an ogre can be. It doesn't make any sense.

Hmm. Ok - I agree, it isn't that much of a loss.

Quote
Case 2: transitioning is painful
On the other hand, transitions are actually possible.
...
I agree that you can if you get a new idea in mind, the transition could take long if you take partial HDs instead of waiting to find something something better.

Yet, as I said, increasing the base Pool is a solution.

Agreed on increasing base pool as solution

Absorb (Feat), (Aligned Shape), (Extraordinary) and (Supernatural) delayed
Case 3:  Gimped below level 8
I think you misunderstood the way it works.

You're right, I did.  In this case, it makes perfect sense.

Quote
If you want to play casters t'ill you can shuffle feats around, nothing stops a player from getting caster feats just as a caster would. Or combat feats, or any other one. Getting that ability only widens your versatility when you reach it. With what the MD class offers before then, your options are already wide enough to keep you on par with the other classes.

I still think it is a low level gimp that isn't needed, but it is also fixed soon enough at level 8.

Quote
Case 4:  Don't get to play monsters with many cool abilities
I think you misunderstood the way (Extraordinary) and (Supernatural) works.
Those are mainly for monsters that are not already part of Osle's list.

Yup, my bad.

Quote
Case 5:  Lots of Paperwork
 :???
In your example, you have it absorb 6 different creatures, so 6 sheets the DM can just hand you over.
Osle's version allows you to keep track of as many people as your HD, so that is 10 sheets.
You keep track of 6 sheets instead of 10. How is that more paperwork?

It isn't 6 sheets ... it is 6 combinations, each of which you have to choose feats, abilities, etc.  If you are fast, this is 1.5 hours per sheet = 9 hours of character building ever couple of levels.

His is 10 sheets, 0 building (It's virtually all done already).

Additionally, the class is just Complex.  I like it, but there should be some way to make it feel simpler.

Best,
David

P.S.  I know I sound negative, but I really do like where it is going.

P.P.S.  From a balance perspective, keep in mind that an Ardent1/Thrallherd1/XXX18 does almost all of this better than this class ... and gets 18 levels of features.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2012, 12:53:01 AM »
Case 5:  Lots of Paperwork
...hum. Not to be offending but I'm not sure how you read it to come to that conclusion. It should clearly be only 6 sheets.
You strip people of their HDs, and some of the abilities work off the character has a whole, which means you have one sheet per different absorbed character.
The combinations is really only the MD choosing which HDs among these absorbed beings its gonna wear for the evening. You aren't making a new character sheet each time you absorb someone. Just take what is already there and take parts of it depending on your needs.

It is simpler than it might seem. Much simpler than keeping track on a bunch of called/summoned creatures, at least.

P.P.S.  From a balance perspective, keep in mind that an Ardent1/Thrallherd1/XXX18 does almost all of this better than this class ... and gets 18 levels of features.
I didn't realize that the contest of "what is more broken here?" was the perspective for 'balance'.
On the other side, it truly doesn't. At all.
Just get the MD to get its hand on 1 thrallherd HD and 1 Ardent HD. It is already better.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 12:59:12 AM by Anomander »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2012, 01:19:22 AM »
You aren't making a new character sheet each time you absorb someone. Just take what is already there and take parts of it depending on your needs.

It is simpler than it might seem. Much simpler than keeping track on a bunch of called/summoned creatures, at least.

Perhaps we should work through an example for a 10th level Mindstealer Drone?

Quote
I didn't realize that the contest of "what is more broken here?" was the perspective for 'balance'.
On the other side, it truly doesn't. At all.
Just get the MD to get its hand on 1 thrallherd HD and 1 Ardent HD. It is already better.

Not just a thrallhred.  Also true, for example, of a Chameleon 2, using the floating feat for leadership and taking improved cohort.

And a MD who absorbed the thrallherd ... would the max HD be based off of the MD or based of off the MD's absorbed thrall.  (HD - 1 or HD - 3?).

Best,
David

Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2012, 02:09:58 AM »
Perhaps we should work through an example for a 10th level Mindstealer Drone?
Alright. Make a level 10 MD and make some generic sheets for some creatures for it to absorb and I'll show you how it works.

Also true, for example, of a Chameleon 2, using the floating feat for leadership and taking improved cohort.
Start with the understanding that you can multiclass osle's monster classes freely and get into PrC without even qualifying for any of them. Try to have your chameleon recruit a cohort that can pull that off.
If you have doubts over the sheer potential of this class, perhaps you should read it again. :rolleyes

And a MD who absorbed the thrallherd ... would the max HD be based off of the MD or based of off the MD's absorbed thrall.  (HD - 1 or HD - 3?).
...not sure I get your question. The max HD of what?
When you get class abilities off an absorbed HD, you get the abilities as is. If an ability says it gets better as you get more levels in the class, then you have to absorb more HD of that class to get these improvements, if that was your meaning.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 02:15:06 AM by Anomander »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2012, 03:09:37 AM »
Perhaps we should work through an example for a 10th level Mindstealer Drone?
Alright. Make a level 10 MD and make some generic sheets for some creatures for it to absorb and I'll show you how it works.

MD 10
Feats (generalist choices, since they need to be good in any form):
1) Mercantile Background
3) Expert Timing
6) Planar Touchstone
9) Skill Prodigy

Forms (assuming *2HD):
Fighter 2 - feats:  Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) (B), Improved Trip(H), Combat Reflexes (1), Knock Down(B)
Warblade 2 - feats: Power Attack(1), Improved Bull Rush(H)
Goliath Crusader 2 - feats: Extra Granted Maneuver
Changling Feat Rogue 2 (w/ substitution level) - ???
Ranger 2 - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Maxed Skills: Hide,  Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search
Factotum 3 - Font of Inspiration *3, Maxed Skills: UMD, Hide, Move Silently, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Gather Info, Spot, Listen, Bluff
Ogre 3 - Improved Trip, Power Attack
Force Golem 4 - Improved Bull Rush(1), Improved Trip(3), Power Attack (B1), Knockback (B4)

You say:
* Whenever you assimilate a class feature that requires that you make a choice, such as a Sorcerer's known spells, a Ranger's Combat style and a Rogue's Special Abilities, your choices carry over even if you lose the classes' HD and absorb them again.

What would you choose, to optimize all options?  What would be the standard "builds" for the above?

Quote
Also true, for example, of a Chameleon 2, using the floating feat for leadership and taking improved cohort.
Start with the understanding that you can multiclass osle's monster classes freely and get into PrC without even qualifying for any of them. Try to have your chameleon recruit a cohort that can pull that off.
If you have doubts over the sheer potential of this class, perhaps you should read it again. :rolleyes

You say:
* Levels replaced grants class abilities from the stolen Hit Die in the order the creature acquired them.

This means that, except for feats, you _do_ have to qualify for PrC.  (Minus, perhaps, feats ... this does make a difference in some builds).  While this would make Master of 9 or Haalruaan Elder somewhat better, it's only somewhat better, since the feats you aren't getting are probably being replaced by feats you've chosen ... feats which are not designed to synergize with this particular build.

Regarding Multiclassing Oslecamo's classes - there are a few places where this would be awesome (A few Golem Levels, Monster of Legend + Full caster Monster), but overall, this isn't that big a perk.  A few more options, but not a big powerup - they're pretty well balanced.

The chameleon, however, has a cohort, changeable daily, at -1 level (rather than -2).  (Plus a whole spiel of other abilities).  Rather than all of this, at -2 levels.  Maybe not better, but also not worse, with a vastly smaller investment.

Quote
And a MD who absorbed the thrallherd ... would the max HD be based off of the MD or based of off the MD's absorbed thrall.  (HD - 1 or HD - 3?).
...not sure I get your question. The max HD of what?
When you get class abilities off an absorbed HD, you get the abilities as is. If an ability says it gets better as you get more levels in the class, then you have to absorb more HD of that class to get these improvements, if that was your meaning.

Yes, thank you.  I see.

Best,
David

Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2012, 06:19:13 AM »
The system as is would be too easy to abuse, which is why I left I note below on where to take this thing.
But this is what I'd do with the way it currently works (note that this is no essay on optimization).

1st, I'd replace my MD levels with Factotum 1, Force Golem 4 [Force Field, 3x Feat (Font of Inspiration), Broke the mold would grant Shock Trooper since I woulda traded feats from the Warblade or otherwise changed the order to make this work], Warblade 1 [Take a bunch of level 3 maneuvers]
2nd, I'd do the same thing but replace the last Force Golem HD by another Warblade HD to get another level 3 maneuver.
3rd, repeat 1 and 2 for Crusader levels.
4th, take Ranger 2 in there to select Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd get the Fighter levels and maybe choose Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection.

Now that I've done all my permanent choices, I'd just take by default with:
Factotum 1/Force Golem 2/Ogre 3/Warblade or Crusader 1
I'd take the Force Golem's skills in Tumble if it maxed it. Trading the feats for two of the Factotum's FoI (or all three if feats were gained from Flaws) and the Warblade's Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush.
I'd Absorb (Shape) into the Force Golem whenever I think I'll enter combat soon and remain in human form the rest of the time.
If possible, try to get my hands on a Lucerne Hammer or a good Maul and whack stuff down.
I'd rather not have to explain my choices, because this is not a course on optimization but just an example of how things could be done.

You say:
* Whenever you assimilate a class feature that requires that you make a choice, such as a Sorcerer's known spells, a Ranger's Combat style and a Rogue's Special Abilities, your choices carry over even if you lose the classes' HD and absorb them again.

Aye, I thought it could work if you just had the same options those who took them chose, but has a potential for some crappy class stackings even though it can also make awesome ones. If you eat 6 level 1 sorcerers, you get a whole bunch of level 1 spells. Yay.
Yet on the other hand, if you can choose your spells known each time you switch to sorcerers, then it really just becomes a spontaneous wizard. I think with this I got a good middle ground but with some classes it just doesn't work so well. Martial classes, IE, progress even with when you aren't taking levels in them, which screws up what maneuver level you get depending on the order you acquired them.
It would probably be best if it worked so that you get the same options chosen by the absorbed creature, but you cannot replace a specific HD without taking all the HD that preceded it. So if one absorbed a Wizard 15/Archmage 1, you wouldn't be able to just replace the Archmage HD, but take on the Wiz 15 as well and you would keep the same selections whoever was absorbed took. That way it is one step closer to osle's version, but you can still stack HD together.

This means that, except for feats, you _do_ have to qualify for PrC.
You skip Special requirements (which can be pretty important), a possible buckload of crappy feats, skill ranks, race/sex/undead limits, deity patron specifics (ever wanted two divine PrC focused on different deities?), classes with opposed alignments, stuff like Taint scores, etc.
I'm sure you can see the bigger picture.

Regarding Multiclassing Oslecamo's classes - this isn't that big a perk.
If it wasn't that big a perk, it wouldn't require two feats per multiclass just to be able to do it.

The chameleon, however, has a cohort, changeable daily, at -1 level (rather than -2).  (Plus a whole spiel of other abilities). Rather than all of this, at -2 levels.  Maybe not better, but also not worse, with a vastly smaller investment.
And exactly why can't the MD pull the very same trick on top of everything else?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 06:25:57 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2012, 07:22:25 PM »
You seem pretty entertained, but I would like to point out that with Alter Self at will at first level, that probably make Anomander's version the strongest first level of all monster classes, before you start factoring in other abilities. And then you can freely multiclass between monster classes... I didn't specifically forbid that whitout some hefty requirements for nothing you know? Plenty of the works around here are heavily frontloaded. I don't know very well what happens when you have an Aasimar/Tiefling/Joystealer/half-ogre/goliath/draconian/Niperibo/Antropormphic Animal all combined, but it isn't gonna be pretty.

Anyway, the whole "combine bits" just has been completely stretched way beyond the original monster. I only put Psychic Combine in there because I wanted a "capstone", it isn't the main point of the class. Anomander's work simply isn't a mindstealer drone. It's a crossover fanfiction drone, and I would thank him if he moves it out of here towards another thread if he really wants to push it forward. Monsters made from scratch just as this are still  a possibility after all, just under another name.

As for the Mindstealer Master, as already pointed out I may work on it one day I've got the free time to make 17 levels worth of abilities.

On other news, added a quite simple on the form of limiting what forms you can take based on both CR and HD. Should have remembered that earlier.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 07:41:56 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2012, 07:58:15 PM »
You should at least consider fixing issues with the original monster,
Memory Drain has no range and can be done over and over. Give a negative level, then just hide and keep memory draining all day. It also doesn't specify that you remember the memories you stole, rather than just absorb-consume them.
Memory Drain as it is is probably too strong for that level. Use it once and the enemy doesn't even remember why it is fighting you and should technically stop fighting since it forgot it is actually engaged in combat.

Otherwise really don't see whats so powerful about the watered down Alter Self, but whatever.

I liked how you could still have something going with your Mindstealer Drone progenitor, oh well.

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Mindstealer Drone
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2012, 10:37:54 PM »
stuff

Hi Anomander - open a thread and PM me  (if you want) and I'll reply there.

Best,
David