Mindstealer Drone

[Anomander]

Hopefully it's not broken, although if anybody notices any cheesy possibility out of the bat do tell me.

The first very broken thing that strikes me off the bat is the fact that this monster class is all about getting a lot more than 3 levels' worth of abilities for 3 levels.

What might have been the goal of this monster is to have no real abilities of its own except the ability to get 3 (or less, since it could have some unique abilities of its own) levels' worth of abilities from beings it absorbs along with their appearance. No more. It gives the creature a flexible 2-3 levels that can be changed depending on the creatures it absorbs, instead of investing 3 levels to get X times that amount.

[oslecamo]

DavidWl and phaedrusxy:Bonus from the same kind of source don't stack. Nom all the drones you want, all the limitations still apply as if you were a single drone. Two forms tops, three feats, etc, etc.

In addition, I believe you've all misread something along the way. Psychic Combine only allows you to get stuff from Absorb Abilities options(stat, skill, feat, Bab, save, movement), not Change Shape options.

Hopefully it's not broken, although if anybody notices any cheesy possibility out of the bat do tell me.

The first very broken thing that strikes me off the bat is the fact that this monster class is all about getting a lot more than 3 levels' worth of abilities for 3 levels.

What might have been the goal of this monster is to have no real abilities of its own except the ability to get 3 (or less, since it could have some unique abilities of its own) levels' worth of abilities from beings it absorbs along with their appearance. No more. It gives the creature a flexible 2-3 levels that can be changed depending on the creatures it absorbs, instead of investing 3 levels to get X times that amount.

Alas, that assumes that the first 3 levels of anything are worth as much as 3 later levels of something else. However 3.X progressions don't work like that. Power progression is exponencial, not linear, so later levels of something are worth a lot more than the initial levels. The mystic Theurge for example has many times been cried out as weak because, despite advancing two classes for the price of one, also delays said two classes by a couple levels. Another good example are martial adepts, where the later you take the level, the stronger maneuvers you can get.
 
So yes, you're getting a potential "X" levels for an investment of 3, but those levels will be always delayed compared to another character.

And then there's the problem of getting the monsters to absorb memories. Sure there's ways like trallherd/planar binding to get what you want, but those methods are broken by themselves because you don't need to turn into other monsters when you can just use them to do your dirty work.

[Anomander]

...what?
I'm saying that it should be the equivalent of 3 levels' worth of abilities. Those are the creature's first 3 levels.
They don't have to get the first three levels of something else. Just the equivalent of 3 levels' worth of stuff.

As it is, it can get much much more than the equivalent of 3 levels' worth of stuff at all levels.

Getting the abilities isn't that much of an issue. Just win with a few points of nonlethal damage making the difference; suck memories to your heart's content. One could also do the same with the leadership feat, but with some sneakiness.
Its not like the cohorts aren't expendable or replaceable.

[DavidWL]

...what?
I'm saying that it should be the equivalent of 3 levels' worth of abilities. Those are the creature's first 3 levels.
They don't have to get the first three levels of something else. Just the equivalent of 3 levels' worth of stuff.

As it is, it can get much much more than the equivalent of 3 levels' worth of stuff at all levels.

Getting the abilities isn't that much of an issue. Just win with a few points of nonlethal damage making the difference; suck memories to your heart's content. One could also do the same with the leadership feat, but with some sneakiness.
Its not like the cohorts aren't expendable or replaceable.

It's a lot like Gestalt ... which certainly isn't broken with an appropriate level adjustment.

Yes, you get a bunch of levels of abilities, but you also give up your highest level abilities.

I think probably the max level of the forms you absorb should be HD-2 rather than HD-1, but it isn't intrinsically broken as a method.

Best
David

[DavidWL]

DavidWl and phaedrusxy:Bonus from the same kind of source don't stack. Nom all the drones you want, all the limitations still apply as if you were a single drone. Two forms tops, three feats, etc, etc.

Good point!

In addition, I believe you've all misread something along the way. Psychic Combine only allows you to get stuff from Absorb Abilities options(stat, skill, feat, Bab, save, movement), not Change Shape options.

I know.

Best,
David

[Anomander]

It's a lot like Gestalt ... which certainly isn't broken with an appropriate level adjustment.
Yes, you get a bunch of levels of abilities, but you also give up your highest level abilities.

Except there is no level adjustment and it can be included as single side of a gestalt, and gives the whole deal for 3 levels.
And that you aren't really giving up on anything.

[DavidWL]

Except there is no level adjustment and it can be included as single side of a gestalt, and gives the whole deal for 3 levels.
And that you aren't really giving up on anything.

You give up 3 levels worth of class features on 1 side, and 1 level on the other.

Or rather, the benefits of mindstealer drone (changable side) are balanced by the problems (need to get forms, maybe not ideal, can't choose feats or classes, etc.).

It's roughly a gestalt with -3 on 1 side and -1 on the other. 

Yes you do get the HD, but frankly, _all_ of oslecamo's classes give you the HD without the LA.  It is the class features that are more important.

Compare (assuming mindstealer drone was -2 on forms rather than -1):
Fighter 18 \\Wizard 18 +2 LA gestalt vs
Mindstealer Drone 3/Fighter 17 \\ Wizard 18

Best,
David

[Anomander]

They are not balanced by the problems. The problems aren't really that problematic.

It's roughly a gestalt with -3 on 1 side and -1 on the other
Exactly, though its not exactly -3. You still get other interesting stuff off your mindstealer drone levels. All of it condensed into 3 levels. You get all that plus whatever else you get from your other levels.
Not sure how one can debate that having almost an entire class' worth of abilities for three levels isn't broken.
Saying "oh, you gotta beat them first" is just ridiculous. Beating things up is part of the game and will undeniably happen.

Yes you do get the HD, but frankly, _all_ of oslecamo's classes give you the HD without the LA.  It is the class features that are more important.
Not sure how that does not actually support my point.

With a first glance at your comparison, it is clear that the one with mindstealer drone is absolutely more powerful. Even thought you put it at -2 on forms instead of -1 for some reason.

[phaedrusxy]

Not sure how one can debate that having almost an entire class' worth of abilities for three levels isn't broken.

There are plenty of ways to do that without giving up a single level's worth of abilities. They include: Fusion, Shapechange, Gate and all of the other binding/summoning spells, the Leadership feat, Thrallherd, etc.

Are those broken? Many would argue yes. I think they are almost certainly more "broken" than this, as this has much stricter limitations than most of those things.

One possible solution to this "problem" would be to allow unlimited advancement of the Mindstealer drone's hit dice, and cap the level of abilities that he can steal at his class levels of Mindstealer drone. IIRC, the original monster worked like this, didn't it?

Of course, adding levels devoid of class features isn't a very attractive idea, but if you actually add meaningful class features, this thing may wind up being even more "overpowered" than the current version. So I think the current one is actually better than this "fix".


Forget about what you're getting for "just three levels". Look at the character as a whole. Is having the abilities of Class X-3 and Class Y-1 stronger, weaker, or equal to having the abilities of either just Class X or Class Y? The Mystic Theurge comparison was spot on. Even using "cheesy" early entry methods like Precocious Apprentice, a Wizard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5 is still arguably not more powerful than just Wizard or Cleric 9. The latter both get 4th level spells, while the first doesn't.

Mixing in things like Tome of Battle, Ardent, and Ur-Priest, which multiclass better than most classes can help tip things in the direction of the drone/mystic theurge, but those are specific examples, and even then likely aren't much (if any) ahead of a single-classed, specialized build like Wizard 5/wizard PrC.

[Anomander]

Most of your more broken means to achieve this similar result can be acquired by the drone as part of its stolen abilities.

Your possible solution could work but the ability Change Shape has no limit to how much it grants, allowing it to steal class features and racial features both.

Of course, adding levels devoid of class features isn't a very attractive idea, but if you actually add meaningful class features, this thing may wind up being even more "overpowered" than the current version. So I think the current one is actually better than this "fix".
Depends on how you do it.

Forget about what you're getting for "just three levels". Look at the character as a whole. Is having the abilities of Class X-3 and Class Y-1 stronger, weaker, or equal to having the abilities of either just Class X or Class Y? The Mystic Theurge comparison was spot on. Even using "cheesy" early entry methods like Precocious Apprentice, a Wizard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5 is still arguably not more powerful than just Wizard or Cleric 9. The latter both get 4th level spells, while the first doesn't.
Well, that's easy. Stronger.

Drone 3/Psion 15 vs Sorcerer 18
Both have access to level 9 sorcerer/wizard spells and may have a familiar. The drone has decent psionic powers (eventually getting level 9 powers at level 20) on top or whatever else it wants. Say, Creature of Legend 2, Paragon 15.
Moreover, if he doesn't need sorcerer/wizard spells for the moment, it has the already very powerful by itself flexibility of switching to level 9 powers, level 9 divine spells, martial maneuvers or whatever else it might need from a pre-absorbed creature PLUS goodies times its HD, including 3 feats that ignore preqs (so he could go straight to Greater two-weapon fighting, say), and probably full BAB. It don't see how it even compares.

[oslecamo]

Moreover, if he doesn't need sorcerer/wizard spells for the moment, it has the already very powerful by itself flexibility of switching to level 9 powers, level 9 divine spells, martial maneuvers or whatever else it might need from a pre-absorbed creature PLUS goodies times its HD, including 3 feats that ignore preqs (so he could go straight to Greater two-weapon fighting, say), and probably full BAB. It don't see how it even compares.

"Pre"-anything is always a flawed comparison if you ask me, since if the DM is allowing it, then stuff like minionmancers and ubercrafters just skyrockets power wise.

Heck, by that very token the sorceror could've pre-planar binded/enslaved his personal army of DOOM and be pretty much  unstoppable with combined great versatility anyway from all of your minion's buffs, so we're comparing infinity vs infiity+1000 at this point.

[Anomander]

By Pre, I mean creatures absorbed during the game, but before the current campaign session.

[oslecamo]

Like already mentioned, you're speaking of an ideal scenario where you at level 18 just hapened to find a 17th level iniator, a 17th level cleric, a 17th level wizard, etc, etc

But fine, added clause that cohorts/followers/summoned/called creatures can't have their memories absorbed.

[DavidWL]

Moreover, if he doesn't need sorcerer/wizard spells for the moment, it has the already very powerful by itself flexibility of switching to level 9 powers, level 9 divine spells, martial maneuvers or whatever else it might need from a pre-absorbed creature PLUS goodies times its HD, including 3 feats that ignore preqs (so he could go straight to Greater two-weapon fighting, say), and probably full BAB. It don't see how it even compares.

Not true ... it can only have spells if it has 8 hours of rest in the appropriate form, so no benefit to change from One caster to another.

As far as "not comparing" - I'm still suggesting giving up 2 HD rather than 1, but otherwise leaving it the same.  This puts you 1 whole spell level down all the way up to 18th level.

Best,
David

[DavidWL]

Like already mentioned, you're speaking of an ideal scenario where you at level 18 just hapened to find a 17th level iniator, a 17th level cleric, a 17th level wizard, etc, etc

But fine, added clause that cohorts/followers/summoned/called creatures can't have their memories absorbed.

Please don't do that. 

• This doesn't really address Anomander's objection, which is not about access to forms, but rather about Gestalt vs. LA in general.  You can still do "it" by seeking out and killing appropriate enemies, although with more difficulty.
  
• It feels arbitrary
• Most importantly: It makes the class less good, and in a way that is both less fun and unnecessary.

Part of the trick of the class is having good ways of getting forms, and really, the only overpowered way that I can think of is thrallherd (which is super powerful anyway).  Summoning doesn't get you initiating, or custom feats or overpowered classes.  At worst, it gets you access to monster classes (which typically don't give maxed out casting + prestige goodness).  Eating a cohort or follower should be fine - plenty of penalties and limits to that.

Best,
David

[phaedrusxy]

Part of the trick of the class is having good ways of getting forms, and really, the only overpowered way that I can think of is thrallherd (which is super powerful anyway).  Summoning doesn't get you initiating, or custom feats or overpowered classes.  At worst, it gets you access to monster classes (which typically don't give maxed out casting + prestige goodness).  Eating a cohort or follower should be fine - plenty of penalties and limits to that.

Planar Binding can explicitly be used to call creatures with class levels, per the Book of Exalted Deeds (they give examples). So you could call a tiefling wizard, for example. If you don't actually want to pay him to do something, but instead just want to kill him, it doesn't even cost anything beyond the spell slot. 

[Anomander]

Not true ... it can only have spells if it has 8 hours of rest in the appropriate form, so no benefit to change from One caster to another.
As far as "not comparing" - I'm still suggesting giving up 2 HD rather than 1, but otherwise leaving it the same.  This puts you 1 whole spell level down all the way up to 18th level.
No. I'm not saying it doesn't need 8 hours of rest. I'm saying that you have the flexibility to move around high level casting to high level whatever for a few levels. Even if it was just once per day; ask a sorcerer to cast divine spells the next day and powers the day after. Big advantage.

It would actually be more fair to just have these casting abilities apply for only 3 levels. You can get the rest of a specific casting if you want to master it my just getting the levels in get casting up to your levels in Mindstealer Drone would you be allowed to get more than 3 levels in it. That way it remains in a sorcerer's power level with the ability to switch around from day to day if you sucked memories off the appropriate victim.

This doesn't really address Anomander's objection, which is not about access to forms, but rather about Gestalt vs. LA in general.  You can still do "it" by seeking out and killing appropriate enemies, although with more difficulty.
No. It has nothing to do with that. My objection is that you can get more than double your invested level's worth in class abilities.
I also rebuked the idea that hunting for the abilities was compensating for all that potential power, so osle's fix took care of that issue, in part.
You can still hire mercenaries and eat hem in their sleep or whatever and since now monsters give more than just magic items their very abilities become 'treasure'.

[DavidWL]

No. I'm not saying it doesn't need 8 hours of rest. I'm saying that you have the flexibility to move around high level casting to high level whatever for a few levels. Even if it was just once per day; ask a sorcerer to cast divine spells the next day and powers the day after. Big advantage.

If the sorcerer is a half decent summoner, then he can just summon someone to cast divine spells for him. 

No. It has nothing to do with that. My objection is that you can get more than double your invested level's worth in class abilities.

Yes, you are objecting to the fact that by giving up 3/1 (I'd suggest 3/2) levels on each side, that you get more levels.  But this is about balancing Gestalt.

Gestalt, by definition is (for example): 
Wizard 10 vs. Wizard 8//Fighter 8 + (2 LA)

By giving up 2 levels, you get 8 levels.  And frankly, +2 as a high-powered gestalt LA is pretty established ... how is it that this is not what you are objecting to?

Planar Binding can explicitly be used to call creatures with class levels, per the Book of Exalted Deeds (they give examples). So you could call a tiefling wizard, for example. If you don't actually want to pay him to do something, but instead just want to kill him, it doesn't even cost anything beyond the spell slot

How specific can you get?  Can you say "I want a 3rd level Angel with 1 level in Cleric and 7 levels in Dwoemerkeeper"?  Or do you say "I want someone who has levels in Cleric casting classes"?

Best,
David

[Anomander]

If the sorcerer is a half decent summoner, then he can just summon someone to cast divine spells for him.
Doesn't change the facts. He gets to summon these peeps and whatever else sorcerers can do and do decent psionic powers to boot.

Yes, you are objecting to the fact that by giving up 3/1 (I'd suggest 3/2) levels on each side, that you get more levels.  But this is about balancing Gestalt.
Gestalt, by definition is (for example):
Wizard 10 vs. Wizard 8//Fighter 8 + (2 LA)

By giving up 2 levels, you get 8 levels.  And frankly, +2 as a high-powered gestalt LA is pretty established ... how is it that this is not what you are objecting to?
No...
I'm am not trying to balance gestalt vs LA. You are confused. LA is a totally empty level and the Mindstealer Drone levels are not empty at all. The extra side of your would-be gestalt isn't limited to only fighter and can copy other tier 1 classes. You are also forgetting the fact that the Mindstealer Drone does not sacrifice any more of its casting progression than a sorcerer does to be spontaneous and none at all if it dabbles into Monster of Legend.
What I am saying is different. I say that for 3 levels' worth of abilities, you should get 3 levels' worth of abilities. No more.
That you have to hunt victims can be inconvenient, but it is a decent price to pay for the flexibility of being able to keep changing what those 3 levels' worth of abilities grant you.

[DavidWL]

No...
I'm am not trying to balance gestalt vs LA. You are confused. LA is a totally empty level and the Mindstealer Drone levels are not empty at all. The extra side of your would-be gestalt isn't limited to only fighter and can copy other tier 1 classes. You are also forgetting the fact that the Mindstealer Drone does not sacrifice any more of its casting progression than a sorcerer does to be spontaneous.

I don't forget that the Drone only sacrifices 1 level - but I think that can be fixed by just making it sacrifice 2 levels.

Regarding "not empty at all"
- they allow you to switch out forms BUT your forms aren't as optimized as if you built with gestalt
- They give bonuses to skills / feats / saves / BAB ... BAB you would get anyway, skills you'd get part of (and frankly, aren't worth that much), saves you'd get part of, and feats you'd get part of.
- It is a power up, but not huge.  I think I agree that this should be toned down for balance.  But, keep in mind, you don't actually get the improved saves, BAB, etc. from gestalt, so this gives it to you.  It just makes the bonuses to saves and skills based on things other than the actual other side.
- You do net a few extra feats, but given that your existing feats probably don't help that side very much, it isn't as much a benefit as strait bonus feats would be (although is still quite strong).

Overall, I think I do agree with you that these are somewhat strong.

Best,
David