Author Topic: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.  (Read 13436 times)

Offline Endarire

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1662
  • Smile! Jesus loves you!
    • View Profile
    • Greg Campbell's Portfolio
Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« on: December 08, 2011, 06:53:22 PM »
Search (INT): I don't know why this skill exists.  Spot and Listen seem to cover perception, and WIS is the skill for perception.

Use Magic/Psionic Device (CHA): If INT is the skill for reason, why is CHA the key stat for these skills?  Do I "charm" my wand to fire on my command?  It seems more logical that I reason my way into firing my wand.

Use Ropse (DEX): Aside from perhaps rope lovers and people playing mundane-only campaigns, I don't see why this skill exists.  Rope is common, but I can't seriously see people investing points into it.  (I'm aware of the Order of the Stick comics involving Use Rope.)

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2011, 07:09:19 PM »
Search is more about distilling information from perception, therefore Int.  Say, for example, that you're looking for a secret door.  Sure perception will help (noticing a tiny latch or something), but Int will help far more to guide you WHERE to look, by figuring out negative space, figuring out where a secret door would be most useful for the inhabitants, etc.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline xaotiq1

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 292
  • I don't always play D&D. But when I do, it's 3.X!
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 08:08:54 PM »
In regard to UMD/UPD, I've always been under the impression that one was "convincing" the item to work for you. You know, "Of COURSE I've got a spell list, and why WOULDN'T magic missile be on it? Come on!"
"Love doesn't share itself with the world. Love is suspicious, love is needy. Love is fearful, love is greedy. My friends, there is no great love without great jealousy!"  Bender Bending Rodriguez

Offline SneeR

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1531
  • Sneering
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 08:12:47 PM »
In regard to UMD/UPD, I've always been under the impression that one was "convincing" the item to work for you. You know, "Of COURSE I've got a spell list, and why WOULDN'T magic missile be on it? Come on!"

That, or, it's saying saying "Wingardium Leviooosa," not , "Wingardium Leviosaaa." You know, inflection and swish and flick and all that.

And, I DMed a game with low magic where the Use Rope skill was extremely handy. If you had a flat DC for ropes, then they would be just as easy to escape from as manacles with Escape Artist. Therefore, ropes tied by an expert hold a man better than the strongest manacles in D&D.
A smile from ear to ear
3.5 is disappointingly flawed.

Offline ConBrio

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • In RPG-esque terms, I'm another midboss.
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 09:35:42 PM »
What I don't get is why Spot/Search/Listen aren't class skills for a large number of classes.

Offline Mixster

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 11:39:12 PM »
And, I DMed a game with low magic where the Use Rope skill was extremely handy. If you had a flat DC for ropes, then they would be just as easy to escape from as manacles with Escape Artist. Therefore, ropes tied by an expert hold a man better than the strongest manacles in D&D.
This is true, however it is also complete bonkers.
Why the hell are ropes better at holding people than chaining them up?
This signature reserved for the first awesome quote!

Offline SneeR

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1531
  • Sneering
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 11:55:42 PM »
And, I DMed a game with low magic where the Use Rope skill was extremely handy. If you had a flat DC for ropes, then they would be just as easy to escape from as manacles with Escape Artist. Therefore, ropes tied by an expert hold a man better than the strongest manacles in D&D.
This is true, however it is also complete bonkers.
Why the hell are ropes better at holding people than chaining them up?

I personally think that manacles should have an escape DC=Craft check of their makers, with the manacles' cost being based on the escape DC. This would add verisimilitude. Same with locks vs Open Lock.
A smile from ear to ear
3.5 is disappointingly flawed.

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2232
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 03:37:40 AM »
And, I DMed a game with low magic where the Use Rope skill was extremely handy. If you had a flat DC for ropes, then they would be just as easy to escape from as manacles with Escape Artist. Therefore, ropes tied by an expert hold a man better than the strongest manacles in D&D.
This is true, however it is also complete bonkers.
Why the hell are ropes better at holding people than chaining them up?

Well, manacles typically are not custom-fitted to the one wearing them, whereas ropes can be cinched tight, layered, added to extra locations (elbows and knees), anchored to other body parts (torso), etc.  And, manacles are what, 1/4 to 1/3 of an inch thick, and only covers your wrists?  Ropes can be wound about from the wrists up to the elbows, and double or triple layered, thereby practically eliminating a person's ability to leverage strength to break free.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 04:28:21 AM »
And, I DMed a game with low magic where the Use Rope skill was extremely handy. If you had a flat DC for ropes, then they would be just as easy to escape from as manacles with Escape Artist. Therefore, ropes tied by an expert hold a man better than the strongest manacles in D&D.
This is true, however it is also complete bonkers.
Why the hell are ropes better at holding people than chaining them up?

Well, manacles typically are not custom-fitted to the one wearing them, whereas ropes can be cinched tight, layered, added to extra locations (elbows and knees), anchored to other body parts (torso), etc.  And, manacles are what, 1/4 to 1/3 of an inch thick, and only covers your wrists?  Ropes can be wound about from the wrists up to the elbows, and double or triple layered, thereby practically eliminating a person's ability to leverage strength to break free.

It seems someone's been tied up before.

On a serious note though, I think Mixster was thinking more along the lines of using actual chains instead of just manacles for binding someone.  Either way, technically a bound character is helpless and is thus treated as having 0 dex (-5 modifier).

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2232
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 09:39:05 AM »
It seems someone's been tied up before.

On a serious note though, I think Mixster was thinking more along the lines of using actual chains instead of just manacles for binding someone.  Either way, technically a bound character is helpless and is thus treated as having 0 dex (-5 modifier).

Actually, it's all learned through observation.

He had been quoting a reference to manacles, which have a flat DC, so that's what I assumed he was referring to.  Chains could likely be used to about the same effect as rope, but with a much higher burst DC.  But the thought of doing that reminds me of when I was a kid on a playground, and got pinched by chains on swings and bridges and stuff... ouch!
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2011, 10:38:42 AM »
Actually, it's all learned through observation.
I learned from the Boy Scouts! And high school.

Use Rope is Dex based. Intelligence only goes as far as knowing the knot, Wisdom for knowing how to properly use a triple bowline, but Dexterity is what ties the knot in it's proper form and threads it correctly.

As for UMD. Your bonus for using the item before (aka intelligence) is a mere +2 bonus. It is a force of will that you invoke it's magical powers, like Sorcerery. In D&D, everyone has a little dragon in their blood line.
Plus it makes Charisma more useful :p

Offline X-Codes

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2001
  • White, Fuzzy, Sniper Rifle.
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2011, 01:15:56 PM »
IMO, use rope shouldn't even be a skill.  Almost every single check regarding Use Rope is DC 10 or 15.  Now, look at Boy Scouts.  Something like Boy Scouts would be Adventuring 101 in the dark ages, and the ability to tie at least a few knots, splice two ropes together, etc. would strike me as being pretty much automatic.

As for the few checks that aren't DC 10 or 15, using a Grappling Hook can just as easily be attributed to either the Climb skill or a ranged attack roll (treat the hook as a thrown weapon with a range increment of 10', and you attack the square where you want the hook to secure itself).  Also, tying someone up can have a fixed DC depending on how much rope is used, how the victim is bound, and how long the captor takes securing the ropes (or chains).

As for Use Magic Device, you're both trying to fool the item and impose your will on it to get it to function.  It's not like some machine where you just need to figure out which button to push to make it work, if a magic item doesn't work for you, you need to will it to work for you, and that's Charisma.

I agree with Search, though.  I roll Spot, Search, and Listen into the same skill, and that skill is Wis-based.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 01:18:23 PM by X-Codes »

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2011, 01:17:09 PM »
I think Use Rope is far, far too specific for what it does. Should be folded into some other skill. Perhaps combined with Escape Artist or something thematically similar?
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline zugschef

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 699
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2011, 01:24:11 PM »
I think Use Rope is far, far too specific for what it does. Should be folded into some other skill. Perhaps combined with Escape Artist or something thematically similar?
escape artist and use rope should totally be combined. just like tumble, climb, jump and balance shouldn't all be seperate skills.

Offline SneeR

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1531
  • Sneering
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2011, 01:58:19 PM »
If anything, Use Rope should be combined with Survival, Profession (sailor), or Profession (dominatrix).

@ X-Codes
Most uses of Use Rope don't even warrant a check in my opinion. The only thing that really matters is tying people up, but you want that to be as good as possible because of how crazy Escape Artist checks can get, even if you do get a +10!
A smile from ear to ear
3.5 is disappointingly flawed.

Offline X-Codes

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2001
  • White, Fuzzy, Sniper Rifle.
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2011, 02:20:42 PM »
@ X-Codes
Most uses of Use Rope don't even warrant a check in my opinion. The only thing that really matters is tying people up, but you want that to be as good as possible because of how crazy Escape Artist checks can get, even if you do get a +10!
That's my position.  Also, I'd rather just have static DCs for the escape artist checks, not even have a check roll.

Afterall, if you've been hogtied by one dominatrix, you've been hogtied by them all.

Offline SneeR

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1531
  • Sneering
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2011, 02:42:24 PM »
Afterall, if you've been hogtied by one dominatrix, you've been hogtied by them all.
This is the mindset that puts people with max ranks in Profession (dominatrix) out of business. Nice job ruining the economy, fella.
A smile from ear to ear
3.5 is disappointingly flawed.

Offline shriekingdrake

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Who'd a' thunk it?
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2011, 05:08:57 PM »
In one of my groups, we use a hybrid system of skills in which we've clumped the skills into smaller sets (reduced the number of skill points characters get), but left the extant categories.  So, for instance we have:

Small Motor (DEX)
   Craft
   Disable Device
   Forgery
   Open Lock
   Slight of Hand
   Use Rope

You put skill points into Small Motor and it fuels each of these sub-skills.  However, synergies among skills, or specific circumstances may affect a character's sub-skills differently. 
Buying books would be a good thing if one could also buy the time to read them in: but as a rule the purchase of books is mistaken for the appropriation of their contents. --Arthur Schopenhauer

Offline JaronK

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2011, 06:21:42 PM »
Tying someone up is about knowing the right knots to secure a person... and yes, a good rope tie is a LOT more secure than manicles (especially middle ages ones).  Really though, it's too specific.  It belongs in another skill... and should be int based.  Disable Device + Open Lock + Use Rope, perhaps?  I dunno.

JaronK

Offline shriekingdrake

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Who'd a' thunk it?
    • View Profile
Re: Still not getting these stat/skill assignments.
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2011, 06:45:37 PM »
I don't disagree.  We've toyed with systems that combine attributes but haven't worked out the kinks.   Once we get it worked out, I'll post it.
Buying books would be a good thing if one could also buy the time to read them in: but as a rule the purchase of books is mistaken for the appropriation of their contents. --Arthur Schopenhauer