"Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers

[midnight_v]

If you play in Eberron or Kingdoms of Kalamar and can stomach the +1 LA,

I cannot. Its... intellectually insulting. When elan and warforged and dragon borning whatever are +0 etc.

edit: But you have a point.

[veekie]

Well, monstrous humanoids are probably the easiest to deal with. They are relatable in general, with the primary conflicts being cultural and historical. They use humanoid gear, currency, etc, and most capabilities fall within humanoid ranges. So its just the setting to see if they're universally demon worshipping filthy acceptable targets, noble savages, rival nations or misunderstood targets of racism.

[RedWarlock]

If you play in Eberron or Kingdoms of Kalamar and can stomach the +1 LA,

I cannot. Its... intellectually insulting. When elan and warforged and dragon borning whatever are +0 etc.

edit: But you have a point.

Not worth a full +1 LA as it stands. Throw one negative on the stats, and I would have no problem calling the Hobgoblin a +0 race. (-2 Wis, perhaps?)

[veekie]

^^
It just barely warrants +0 as it stands, all it has for racials are basically Darkvision and those stats. If you take away one of the pluses it won't even be worth a +0.

[Libertad]

Veekie couldn't have said it better.  Compare it to the Dwarf: Dwarves get a bunch of cool stuff, like saving throw bonuses on spells and poison, stability, ability to detect underground depth, combat bonuses against giants, orcs, and goblins, and proficiency with neat dwarven weapons.

The hobgoblins get +2 to strength and constitution and can sneak around well, which are the only things unique about it.

Edit: I was wrong about the stats.  It's dex and con.

[RedWarlock]

True. I guess I remembered them differently.

Technically, the +4 MS isn't even unique, all the goblinoids get it.

[midnight_v]

no they get +2 dex +2 con. Which... sigh. I keep thinking it but its not the mechanics but the fluff and reasoning that brings me back to the tome series so much I think, at least about simple things like the races.

Hobgoblin
"That's some tough talk from a man who wears a basket on his head."
Hobgoblins are totally awesome at everything they do. They don't have any telling weaknesses, and their strengths are general enough that they excel at everything they put their mind to. And like Humans, this can seem like they are overpowered. But the thing is, each character is made separately. While many of the armies of the world are created of a single race, each player character can be something unique and crazy. So for the Hobgoblin people there is a substantial advantage to being good at any class. But a player character probably never sees that. A Hobgoblin [anything] is a viable character, but if you want your mouth to taste like velveeta you'd make your Rogue a Deep Halfling, you'd make your Wizard a Gray Elf, and you'd make your Fighter a Dwarf.
But there's more to being a Hobgoblin than being able to ably fill any party role without overpowering the world. You get to have orange or gray skin, sharp teeth, and depending upon which version of D&D Hobgoblin you're using – either radically more or radically less body hair than a human. So what does that mean? It means that an influential Hobgoblin character in your campaign is going to be played by Robin Williams. But while that means that Hobgoblins can be portrayed in a humorous light, chances are that the humor is going to be more like that in The Big White or Death to Smoochy. These guys have an incredibly baroque system of laws and an interlocking system of fealties that are actually a parody of Feudal Japan.

Medium Size
30' movement
Humanoid Type (Goblinoid subtype)
Darkvision 60'
+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution
+4 bonus to Move Silently checks
Favored Classes: Fighter and Samurai
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin
Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elvish, Dwarvish, Giant, Gnoll, Ignan, Infernal, Orcish.   

From srd:

Hobgoblins are larger cousins of goblins. Hobgoblins’ hair color ranges from dark reddish-brown to dark gray. They have dark orange or red-orange skin. Large males have blue or red noses. Hobgoblins’ eyes are yellowish or dark brown, while their teeth are yellow. Their garments tend to be brightly colored, often blood red with black-tinted leather. Their weaponry is kept polished and in good repair. Hobgoblins speak Goblin and Common. Most hobgoblins encountered outside their homes are warriors; the information in the statistics block is for one of 1st level.

Combat
These creatures have a strong grasp of strategy and tactics and are capable of carrying out sophisticated battle plans. Under the leadership of a skilled strategist or tactician, their discipline can prove a deciding factor. Hobgoblins hate elves and attack them first, in preference to other opponents.

Skills
Hobgoblins have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.

The hobgoblin warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments
Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

Hobgoblin Characters
Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits.

•+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.
•A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
•Darkvision out to 60 feet.
•+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
•Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc.
•Favored Class: Fighter.
•Level adjustment +1.

Which basically mirrors my thought about most of the monster classes.
veekies right it is setting based and contingent upon what supposed horrors you people have inflicted on OTHER people but really when I read the settings they get less hobgoblin massacres that orc massacres, which is one of the selling points of ebberon for me yes, the dhakanni make sense to me. There are other things I don't like though.

[Kajhera]

Few things are as disconcerting for a paladin as walking through a city on the Material plane and having to deal civilly with a horned devil.

Main city of the campaign I'm in right now, there's a fair bit of interplanar traffic. Lawful outsiders mainly - devils, inevitables, archons.

There's a few goblins and orcs but seems like they are marginalized. Not too much stuff like minotaurs - in most places my Large wolf-man companion sticks out like a sore thumb.

(I stick out like a green thumb)

In my homeland, we're ...sky-worshipping totemist psionic people. Good-aligned or otherwise nice, particularly flying magical beasts are revered and welcomed; as well, couatls and gem dragons.

So yeah, the way in is watched by a pair of sphinxes, my brother is a blink dog, dragonblooded people are pretty common, lizardfolk aren't unheard of, we even let in elves. 

[littha]

Few things are as disconcerting for a paladin as walking through a city on the Material plane and having to deal civilly with a horned devil.

Having to deal civilly with a horned demon?

[Kajhera]

Few things are as disconcerting for a paladin as walking through a city on the Material plane and having to deal civilly with a horned devil.

Having to deal civilly with a horned demon?

Lol, somehow I think the circumstances that would make that necessary would render it a bit less disconcerting.

[littha]

Succubi can be really good at those sorts of circumstances. 

[Kajhera]

Hopefully detect evil, immunity to charm, a will save through the roof, and -
wait, she seems nice and she's got a bluff score?
... yeah, I might be screwed

But at least not disconcerted!

[Kajhera]

Succubi can be really good at those sorts of circumstances. 

Follow-up: Yep, good prediction.

[midnight_v]

Succubi can be really good at those sorts of circumstances. 

Follow-up: Yep, good prediction.

Optimization:
Follow-up: Yep, good prediction. use psychoactive skin of protection.

[Kajhera]

Succubi can be really good at those sorts of circumstances. 

Follow-up: Yep, good prediction.

Optimization:
Follow-up: Yep, good prediction. use psychoactive skin of protection.

Well, she asked for redemption. (And I'm a cleric not a psion, I have to fix things after the fact)

[debihuman]

Many DMs fear the possibility of allowing Monster Classes in case the PC gets massively overpowered cheese.  Several debates and arguments on message boards concern the amount of grief monster PCs should go through.  Many DMs give visibly monstrous PCs additional complications from being run out of town to adventurers and town guards attacking said monster due to misunderstandings.

I think it depends on how human-centric your setting is.  Not all settings are equal.  However, in a human-centric setting, there will be fear, mistrust and confusion when you add a PC monster to the mix. Years ago, my brother-in-law wanted to play a boggart. They were originally covered in blue fur.  I had him deal with the people who thought he might make a good pet or who wanted to put him in a zoo.  These situations do not crop up with standard races.

The problem is that this fear and prejudice can get annoying fast, especially if it also negatively affects the rest of the PCs.  It may make sense that trolls are distrusted in the Silver Marches, but if you're going to allow a Troll PC in your games you shouldn't make adventuring a constant inconvenience that you wouldn't put other characters through.

Once in a while it's good to enforce the "otherness" of the non-standard PC, but as a steady diet, it will become tiresome.  I suspect the DM is show a lack of imagination with the monster PC.  A troll PC would have contacts that would not make sense for the rest of the party.  He might know other trolls and hobgoblins or hags... Those resources could be invaluable to the rest of the party. It should not be all about monster slaying.

What is your opinion on monster PCs and the potential fear and anxiety they would face due to their nature?

In moderation, it's okay but changing things around is good too.  What happens when the NPCs are monsters too rather than just monsters. Mixing things up works best.

Debby
[/quote]

[gleith]

Seeing this thread, I feel i should post this question here...

What is a good way to convince a Dm that letting a PC play a Monster race isnt such a bad idea?

For example, I would like to play a half-bronze dragon, half ogre later in a campaign after the other pc's have reached a level sufficient enough to be equal to said character in power and abilities, I am willing to kill off my own character to be able to play as the one mentioned, and have expressed a willingness to rp through the campaign to a point where I actually find this character, and "train" it from the time it is young until it is "old enough to play" but my Dm still refuses.

[littha]

I would avoid that particular combination, the penalties for having so much LA far overshadow the benefits. Some DMs cant be convinced, some believe that templates an exotic races are super powerful and broken, their thought process usually runs like this:

My player wants to play something exotic > why would they want to do that > it must be more powerful than normal > denied

The other option is that the DM is concerned that such an outlandish character might not mesh well with a current party or campaign setting, which is a significantly more defensible position. I know that I for one would balk a the mention of a half dragon/half ogre if i were running a party entirely made of humans/dwarves/elves etc, or running in a world where tolerance for supernatural monstrosities is low.

[gleith]

That was but an example, lol one of my first ideas for a character. Now its more along the lines of "I want to play a dwarf, who's mother was a copper dragon" Or, "I want to play a skullcrucher ogre." But he refuses, and wont give a reason, its always simply "No, I wont allow it." If the subject is pushed, he will say "because I said so." Our groups are usually like a combination, of orcs and dwarves and the such, but only because were not allowed to play anything interesting. I dont know if its because he's scared to let us have more control over what happens, or if he's simply unable to create campaigns hard enough for such characters

[littha]

You seem to think that exotic races are more powerful yourself, this is not a good route to go down.

Barring very few outliers Human, Dwarf and Warforged are about the three strongest races you can have, they are edged out by other races like whisper gnomes and strongheart halflings for certain tasks but basically every LA 0 race is better than a LA 1 or higher race.