Author Topic: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers  (Read 14888 times)

Offline Libertad

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"Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« on: December 08, 2011, 08:02:15 PM »
The Quote is from the Claw, an all-monster adventuring party in the book Enemies & Allies.

Monsters were intended to be adversaries, villains, and many game worlds reflect this.  But with the advent of Savage Species, Level Adjustment, 3rd-party campaign settings, and tons of homebrewed Monster Classes on the 'net, the potential to play as monsters seems to be an accepted possibility in D&D games.

But this acceptance is given only grudgingly.  Many DMs fear the possibility of allowing Monster Classes in case the PC gets massively overpowered cheese.  Several debates and arguments on message boards concern the amount of grief monster PCs should go through.  Many DMs give visibly monstrous PCs additional complications from being run out of town to adventurers and town guards attacking said monster due to misunderstandings.

The problem is that this fear and prejudice can get annoying fast, especially if it also negatively affects the rest of the PCs.  It may make sense that trolls are distrusted in the Silver Marches, but if you're going to allow a Troll PC in your games you shouldn't make adventuring a constant inconvenience that you wouldn't put other characters through.

What is your opinion on monster PCs and the potential fear and anxiety they would face due to their nature?

Offline littha

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2011, 08:13:02 PM »
I am a great fan of playing as monsters, however I tend to play creatures that can either disguise themselves as other races (Succubi and a couple of dragons have alternate form for example) or aren't objectionable either way (Maugs, 9 foot of walking wall is difficult to object to even if you do have some sort of racial prejudice against constructs.)
Generally however playing as a monsterous race has more disadvantages than advantages.


Offline X-Codes

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 08:26:35 PM »
It should depend entirely on the makeup/mentality of a given city, and just how freaky the monster is.  The citizens of a metropolis should barely bat an eye at an ogre or troll walking "peacefully" down the street, but they would probably stare at a large-sized half-dragon or any kind of non-native outsider.  If you're in such a city on some other plane, like Sigil, then pretty much everything looks "normal."  On the other hand, small villages will probably react with hostility towards close to everything that doesn't look relatively close in appearance to them, or look like something they can beat up on.

Kind of a safety-in-numbers mentality.  That ogre isn't going to start stuff so long as we have a well-trained and equipped city watch, with dozens of witnesses in the street that would easily recognize him and can point him out to the authorities.  On the other hand, in a little village where guards *maybe* have spears and leather armor, and are in such few numbers that they can be counted on one hand, they're going to react much more defensively.

Offline caelic

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 08:58:28 PM »
As I said in another thread:

Half-Illithid Thri-Kreen player: "I seduce the barmaid!"

DM: "Dude, you're a bug with tentacles."

Half-Illithid Thri-Kreen player: "So what?  I have a Charisma of 16!"

DM: "Dude, you're a BUG.  With TENTACLES."

I don't object to exotic PC races.  What I object to is players who take an exotic race and expect it to be treated exactly the way a human would.  Race should have more of an impact than, "Hey, if I take THIS template, THIS template, and THIS template, I get all SORTS of cool stat bonuses!"

If you play a half-dragon anthropomorphic whale in a primarily human and demi-human society, expect to get weird looks.   If you don't want to get weird looks, play a human.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 09:07:33 PM »
I added the "Deceivingly innocent form" on my monster classes project precisely for those monster players who want to fit better in typical humanoid socities.

Offline Solo

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 10:55:52 PM »
As I said in another thread:

Half-Illithid Thri-Kreen player: "I seduce the barmaid!"

DM: "Dude, you're a bug with tentacles."

Half-Illithid Thri-Kreen player: "So what?  I have a Charisma of 16!"

DM: "Dude, you're a BUG.  With TENTACLES."
Some people would find that hot.
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Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 11:48:58 PM »
I don't object to exotic PC races.  What I object to is players who take an exotic race and expect it to be treated exactly the way a human would.  Race should have more of an impact than, "Hey, if I take THIS template, THIS template, and THIS template, I get all SORTS of cool stat bonuses!"

Imagine if the DM told you that this was going to be the case.  Now imagine that every other player decided to play a monster.  There's a minotaur, a myconid, a kerpca, and an obvious undead.  Oh, and the game is second edition.

The DM did an about-face on his pro-human stance at the cost of my character in this case.  For some reason, my 16 charisma human had more problems with npcs in human towns and cities than the other pcs with their dumped 4-6 charisma.  The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few I suppose.

Due to this, my stance on monster adventurers is a negative one.

Offline veekie

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 01:58:51 AM »
Quote
What I object to is players who take an exotic race and expect it to be treated exactly the way a human would.  Race should have more of an impact than, "Hey, if I take THIS template, THIS template, and THIS template, I get all SORTS of cool stat bonuses!"

If you play a half-dragon anthropomorphic whale in a primarily human and demi-human society, expect to get weird looks.   If you don't want to get weird looks, play a human.
In agreement here, you play a monstrous race, you deal with being treated like a monster. This would be made clear when they ask. It could get old fast if they just want the monster's abilities rather than to actually play a monster.

I tend to prefer allowing those that can pass for human or at least appear as benign creatures(fey are generally decent for this, if they aren't tied to some location, they tend to look like unusually attractive/magical elves anyway).
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Offline Halinn

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 09:13:58 AM »
As I said in another thread:

Half-Illithid Thri-Kreen player: "I seduce the barmaid!"

DM: "Dude, you're a bug with tentacles."

Half-Illithid Thri-Kreen player: "So what?  I have a Charisma of 16!"

DM: "Dude, you're a BUG.  With TENTACLES."
Some people would find that hot.
Only in Japan.

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 11:01:14 AM »
Yeah, if someone is playing an Obviously Monstrous character of the type that's normally kill-on-sight, then they should be kill-on-sight as far as NPC's are concerned until such time as they prove otherwise.  You choose to play that race, you are going to have social problems, and that is part of the race.  To do otherwise is to do a disservice to the idea of the race and the world you're playing in.

Now, if what you're looking for is the mechanics, and the mechanics aren't overpowered, then maybe you can work with your DM to refluff a normal-looking character into having those mechanics for some reason.  But if you're actually looking to play the race, then the social issues are inextricably tied to the race and should never, ever be ignored - that would be a sign of terrible DMing and to expect it is a sign of a player that has no interest in actually roleplaying the character they chose to build.

There are a few places where this isn't true.  If you want your players to be able to play monstrous races without harassment, set your campaign somewhere it makes sense.  In Sigil, for instance, it doesn't matter what you are, everyone's just going to go 'meh' and treat you pretty much the same - with a little more caution if you're the type that can obviously kill them dead very fast, but there's no mobs with pitchforks to burn the <insert hated race>.

But in more 'typical' settings, don't ever expect to walk into a city if you happen to be a troll.  It's pretty much that simple - when the party goes to town, the troll either has a magical disguise or waits outside, hidden in the bushes.  The dark elf doesn't openly walk to the gates and demand to be treated equally.  Consider that even Drizzt was refused entry to Silverymoon, despite being a personal acquaintance of Alustriel.  Only years later after his personal reputation in the area had grown among the common people was he allowed to enter cities in that region of Faerun openly.
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Offline caelic

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2011, 12:12:30 PM »

There are a few places where this isn't true.  If you want your players to be able to play monstrous races without harassment, set your campaign somewhere it makes sense.  In Sigil, for instance, it doesn't matter what you are, everyone's just going to go 'meh' and treat you pretty much the same - with a little more caution if you're the type that can obviously kill them dead very fast, but there's no mobs with pitchforks to burn the <insert hated race>.



I've always thought D&D 3.5 would be the perfect system for a game set in Robert Asprin's "Myth" universe.  Don't want to freak out the Klahds?  Go hang out at the Bazaar.

Offline Libertad

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2011, 03:21:37 PM »
I think that the Outcast Rating system of Ravenloft works well for monstrous characters.  Keep in mind that the system is based off of a setting where even being an elf is cause for alarm in most human communities.

Basically, an Outcast Rating is the general level of fear, prejudice, and mistrust a character faces based on several factors.  Clerics of evil deities, monsters, and known criminals get a higher Outcast Rating than a human peasant or noble knight.  Get your Outcast Rating high enough, and you're guaranteed to never live a normal and safe life.

For monsters, an Outcast Rating is determined by three main factors: physical appearance, reputation, and miscellaneous abilities.  Due to Ravenloft's humanocentric setting, large and inhuman-looking monsters get higher outcast ratings than small and humanoid-looking ones.  Additionally, monsters with distinctly alien mindsets and dangerous inherent supernatural powers get higher outcast ratings as well.

So in this system, a Mind Flayer would cause a big stir wherever he went, while a Hobgoblin may face some trouble and distrust but may eventually win over the people living nearby.  For the Mind Flayer to achieve the same thing would take a miracle.

Offline Nachofan99

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2011, 11:51:23 PM »
I tried to get my players to play as a group of monsters and they did not want to.

Was kinda disappointed.

Offline Arz

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 10:57:23 AM »
Had a similar problem when I pitched a goblinoid campaign for Eberron. Gave them tons of hints. Went back and rewrote my proposal to include free mechanical advantages to goblinoid pc's like la buyoff, proficiencies, etc. Imagine my surprise when I suddenly had a group of all goblinoids. Bribery works

Offline Libertad

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 01:45:39 PM »
Eberron is slightly different in the fact that less powerful monstrous characters have an easier chance of integrating into society.  Goblins used to rule a vast empire, and they make up a sizable percentage of the lower class in many urban cities.  Some of the Dragonmarked Houses regularly hire out monsters for security and military purposes.  The Player's Guide to Eberron had a list of the most common monstrous PCs and examples of how they'd be treated: in general, the higher the Challenge Rating, the more hostility you'll face.

Offline midnight_v

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 07:10:13 PM »
I was a really big fan of hobgoblins. I found that there was no reason at all that they were given a level adjustment, and that for whatever reason half-orcs and dragonborn and Drow are about but they are not.
The bulk of the peasantry don't know what a hobgoblin looks like as they have no ranks knowledge, but I do appreciate the auto include of their empire in ebberon.
It was so refreshing to see someone besides the elves have an ancient empire.
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In other news....
Quote
  The problem is that this fear and prejudice can get annoying fast, especially if it also negatively affects the rest of the PCs.  It may make sense that trolls are distrusted in the Silver Marches, but if you're going to allow a Troll PC in your games you shouldn't make adventuring a constant inconvenience that you wouldn't put other characters through.
 
... R.A. Salvatore has made D&D millions of dollars but pimping that very idea set. Overcoing racial prejudice is the one of the key things in the story of that drow elf ranger.

So the Hobgoblin Ronin... would likely have equal merit if you dress it up enough.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 10:31:49 PM »
Tome of Battle also gave hobgoblins a lot of love fluff-wise.

Offline midnight_v

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2011, 06:47:38 AM »
Tome of Battle also gave hobgoblins a lot of love fluff-wise.
Hmm... a little. Its not really backed up mechanically really, the conspicuous lack of a prc for them kind of illustrates the sad state of affairs. Its frustrating somewhat, because there's no logical reason that 1 race is considered a "player race" and the other humanoids are not... except so we have the "us" and "Them" dynamic for ease of killing.
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2011, 03:02:45 PM »
I'm betting back when they were doing Races of.. books, they were trying to work up into a Races of Goblin Blood or something. There's so much emphasis on the Hobs in the ToB, that I think they were trying for it. (Look at the races shown in the Disciplines chapters, they specifically called out goliaths and raptorans. (Don't recall Illumians offhand, but still..) It would have been perfect.

I remember seeing a lot of that kind of wishing going on back on the WotC forums in that period..
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Offline Libertad

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Re: "Monsters?! Where?! Oh, you mean us..." Monster adventurers
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2011, 04:15:14 PM »
If you play in Eberron or Kingdoms of Kalamar and can stomach the +1 LA, you can totally play a badass hobgoblin who studied the ancient ways of his people to become a master swordsman/warrior.  The goblins of Eberron have a rich history of martial and magical lore and make up a significant percentage of the population in many cities.  In Kingdoms of Kalamar, the hobgoblins have an empire and are one of the campaign setting's dominant political powers: heck one of the game's high-level modules involves a dungeon crawl into the mausoleum of a hobgoblin king!

Heck, Kalamar has an entire supplement dedicated to Hobgoblin, with options for Prestige Classes and PCs!  I don't know if it's any good, though.

http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3319