Author Topic: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?  (Read 2498 times)

Offline Nanashi

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[3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« on: October 28, 2022, 10:42:23 PM »
Epic 6 AKA E6 is a rules variant where characters no longer gain levels after level 6, but instead gain an extra feat every so many XP. This results in characters with an abnormally high number of feats but are stuck at the abilities, class features, saves, BAB etc. of a level 6 character (bar some E6 exclusive feats that slightly boost one thing above normal) that will still find many classical mythological bad guys (manticore, chimera, troll etc.) a challenge.  What D&D3 and PF feats are more useful than normal in this rule set?

Ones I know offhand
Core:
Toughness: While there's a few ways to gain HP via feats, Toughness is the only one that can be taken more than once. Still not great, but its existence is important to the system.
Improved Familiar: While most of the really good options need a CL of 7+, the familiars are often still useful and there's likely a way to push one's CL up for this purpose

3e:
Shape Soulmeld (+feat chain): There's literally a handbook on all the stuff this feat can give, and many of the options are things magic items or class features (including spells) struggle to give in e6.
Bind Vestige (+feat chain): Largely the same as above
Martial Study/Stance: Class features via feat.
Magical Training: Actual casting (not SLA) via feat, which has some uses. If you're really devious, it can be paired with the below IIRC.
Precocious Apprentice: Early access to prestige classes is even more important with the low level cap.
Least Dragonmark (+feat chain): Lesser Dragonmarks give SLAs of up to third level. With investment in E6 feats (Skill Beyond Your Years+Skill Focus+Improved Skill Focus+Greater Skill Focus) you can actually qualify for Greater Dragonmark and its related feats, which are gamechangers in E6.

PF:
Extra <class feature>: Even sub-optimal choices are often great here.
[Conduit] Feats: Relavent SLA. With Skill Beyond Your Years, you can get Flickering Step for two uses of Dimension Door
Cosmic Gate: Accessible via Skill Beyond Your Years. Teleport while being "very familiar" with the target once a day. Meh at level 10, but good for E6 (though being locked at HD as CL is annoying).
Discordant Voice: Another SBYYs option that's meh as intended but good "early".

PF3P:
Akashic, Martial Adept, Spheres of Power/Might, Pact Magic: All of these let a significant part of the sub-system be unlocked via feats. Martial Training III/IV can even be obtained via SBYY, beating a proper adept.

Can anyone think of anything else?

Offline Versatility_Nut

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2022, 12:37:19 AM »
Bloodline of Fire is another 1st-level feat of significance, as it's one of a limited set of untyped, uncapped, Caster Level bonuses. Specifically +2 to all [Fire] spells. Calishite Elementalist is only +1 to [Air] or [Fire], but is not only uncapped by character level, it's uncapped by the spell, so alongside Bloodline of Fire you're already at CL 9, and with just +2 more (Spell Thematics, Fiery Burst, Elemental Spellcasting (Fire), etc) you can get 11d6 Fireballs, and down with your 1st-level slots you have 6d4 Burning Hands as early as 3rd level.

It allows for the Mailmen to be Very Damned Sure the thing they are wanting to burn does in fact BURN. Of note is that Arcane Thesis is in reach for e6, so you can Searing Spell your 11d6 Fireballs.

Offline Skyrock

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2022, 08:14:14 AM »
Generally all the feats that are more effective the more feats of a similar type you have, like Font of Inspiration (which you can take multiple times and where the bonus gained goes up by +1 every time) or Psionic Body (granting +2HP every time you acquire another [Psionic] Feat).

The E6 handbook goes into more detail on feats of that type: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6605.msg99843#msg99843

Offline Versatility_Nut

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2022, 07:36:46 PM »
Generally all the feats that are more effective the more feats of a similar type you have, like Font of Inspiration (which you can take multiple times and where the bonus gained goes up by +1 every time) or Psionic Body (granting +2HP every time you acquire another [Psionic] Feat).

The E6 handbook goes into more detail on feats of that type: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6605.msg99843#msg99843
Looking into it, there's also Aberrant feats, Vile feats, Deformity feats among Vile feats, and Abyssal Heritor feats. Also that has basically no detail to it. To try to break it down more specifically:

Aberrant:
11 total, one with 8 separate choices; max 18
Bestial Hide gives +1 AC/2 feats
Durable Form gives +2 HP/feat
Inhuman Vision gives +1 Spot and +5 ft. Darkvision/feat
Warped Mind gives +1 PP/feat and +1 Will vs. Mind-Affecting/2 feats

Abyssal Heritor:
13 total, no multiple takes
Chaotic Spell Recall gives a Chaotic spell recovered per day/2 feats
Claws of the Beast gives +1 Profane bonus to Natural/Unarmed Attacks/2 feats
Cloak of the Obyrith gives DR 1/Lawful/feat
Demonic Skin gives +1 Natural Armor/feat
Demonic Sneak Attack gives one Sneak Attack die reroll/feat
Eyes of the Abyss gives +1 to Search and Spot/feat
Heart of the Nabassu gives one "absorbed" negative level/feat
Keeper of Forbidden Lore gives +1 Knowledge (the Planes), Spellcraft, and Bardic Knowledge/feat
Otherworldly Countenance gives +1 Perform OR Intimidate and one use per day of Fascinate OR Sicken/feat
Precognitive Visions gives a +1 Insight bonus/2 feats
Primordial Scion gives 1d6 damage vs. Lawful/4 feats
Vestigial Wings gives +3 to Jump/feat

Draconic:
26 total, 9 mutually exclusive, no multiple takes; max 17
Draconic Heritage gives +1/feat to saves vs. Sleep, Paralysis, and Dragon-specific descriptor
Draconic Resistance gives Energy Resistance 3/feat according to the Draconic Heritage
Draconic Toughness gives +2 HP/Draconic feat

Vile/Deformity:
46 feats, three sets of two mutually exclusive, one take-more-than-once that's both; no maximum
Abominable Form gives line-of-sight (literally unlimited range) Shaken for Con rounds with DC 15+2/feat Will save
Chosen of Evil give you a 1 Con damage Immediate for +1 Insight/Vile Feat to one attack, saving throw, ability check, or skill check
Unlimited retake is Deformity (Skin), giving +1 Natural Armor per take.

May be wrong on any particular point, may have missed some categories.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 07:38:57 PM by Versatility_Nut »

Offline Power

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2022, 02:17:31 AM »
Well, going to go over some PF options.

Regular feats:
  • Play a Kitsune and stack the Magical Tail feat. Eventually you will get 2/day Dominate Person. Bonus points for taking 1 level (or more, if you prefer) of Sorcerer for the Serpentine bloodline so you can target magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, and animals with it, maybe going Crossblooded for an extra Pestilence (Target vermin as animals, so you can dominate them too, courtesy of Serpentine.) or Undead (Can target corporeal ex-humanoid undead, but there is already Command Undead to control all undead.) bloodline. If your GM permits mixing Crossblooded with wildblooded bloodline variants, Groveborn is also an option, although you might prefer having Sylvan if you are going to level as Sorcerer. (Incidentally, it is possible in PF to stack enough Magical Tail feats to get Dominate Person at level 6 even without playing E6, simply by using the Nine-Tailed Scion race trait and Kitsune favored class bonus while playing a Fighter.)
  • Ability Focus: A rare option for keeping DCs of non-spellcasting abiltiies relevant.
  • Planar Wild Shape: You have HD in the 5-10 band, so adding Celestial or Fiendish template gives you that valuable DR while you're low on hit points and limited in DR options.
  • Sacred Geometry: Free metamagics on your everything. Make all the metamagics free. Treat yourself as having two extra metamagic feats too. If your GM doesn't ban it, you want it. But you will also want a Sacred Geometry calculator so your turns don't take forever. It's an extremely high power option in general, but if you're looking for free metamagic in E6 without using Divine Metamagic, this has you covered.
  • Scale and Skin: If someone is pumping their caster level all the way to CL10, this is basically a +2 increase to Natural AC for 1 feat. There are plenty of transmutations that last long enough. E6 is weak against dispels though.
  • Improved Natural Armor: It's a +1 increase to natural armor, but you can take it as many times as you want. Not exactly high value, but it's there if you have a burning need to stack AC.
  • Magic Trick (Floating Disk): Better if you aren't using flying mounts for some reason. Gets +10 movement speed with a Brisk Spell metamagic (which doesn't even raise the spell slot cost). Mainly mentioning it because it's a 1st level slot letting you hover above and ignore a lot of terrain for hours/lvl (as well as become a full-on flight spell for a limited duration), but the +4 shield bonus to AC whenever you take a move action or move 10 feet (with the Mobility feat, and this perk can be combined with a full attack if you pounce) is also decent, at least until you start wearing a heavily enchanted mithral buckler.
  • Hellcat Stealth + Dampen Presence: More relevant later on, when this kind of nonmagical stealth (especially if you use Scent Blocker items or the Negate Aroma spell) becomes very handy, especially since you should have the resources to pump the skill check no problem. True seeing and blindsight are simply useless against this.
  • Cunning/Spirit Ridden: You may want these if the need for new skill ranks is a concern, especially if you are not even getting retroactive skill ranks from int.
  • Eldritch Heritage (Arcane): Get an arcane bond (Arcane Bond = 1/day: cast any spell you know of a spell level you are capable of casting spontaneously without using a spell slot & you can upgrade your arcane bond as if you had the appropriate item crafting feat, see Wizard class) or familiar.
  • Twist Away: Lets you spend immediate actions to roll Reflex instead of Fort on your Fort saving throw. If you succeed, you avoid the entire effect. Makes you staggered for 1 round though, regardless of whether or not you succeed. Requires Evasion.
  • Mobile Bulwark Style: Use move actions to give yourself total cover with tower shields. Very good for Clerics and the like.

Animal companion related feats:

Teamwork feat tactics:
Usually you use something like a Ring of Tactical Precision, Shared Training spell, Sisterhood Style, etc. to bestow Teamwork feats on allies unless they feel like taking the bonus feats too. Usually the problem with Teamwork feats is that they're too many feats and they require your allies to coordinate their feat builds with you unless you invest in ways to give it to allies (which is why they ultimately printed Shared Training).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2023, 03:08:41 AM by Power »

Offline Nanashi

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2022, 11:18:27 AM »
Huh, didn't notice Magical Tail had no pre-reqs other than Kitsune. That's absolutely bonkers  in E6 despite being meh in normal.

Offline Power

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2022, 01:37:13 PM »
Yeah, it's pretty good in E6. And you get a free +1 to enchantment spell DCs for playing a Kitsune too. In normal PF, it still has its uses, but kinda esoteric ones. With Nine-Tailed Scion and the new Kitsune favored class bonus for all classes, a 12th level Brawler can get +2 magical tails from the favored class bonus and another +3 from martial flexibility, so you only need 3 feats (which you could spend the normal Brawler bonus combat feats on) to get the best powers, and even just getting the first 5 powers without any real investment is also decent (at level 10 you already get 4). It's kind of aided in this respect by the fact that the Brawler favored class bonuses are shit.

If you just want to cause your GM an aneurysm in E6 though, just play a dedicated Color Spray Oracle. For that build, just get 2 levels of Heavens mystery Oracle with Awesome Display revelation, and go nuts on getting a charisma score as high as possible (old/venerable age with at least a +2 racial bonus to charisma, and try to get alchemical, profane, inherent, sacred, etc. charisma bonuses too) while investing into all the resources to bypass mind-affecting immunities so that you can hit just about everything that isn't sightless with Color Spray. The best part is that all that charisma-boosting also keeps your DCs relevant, although presumably you are taking the Magical Lineage + Wayang Spellhunter traits to get -2 to metamagic costs on your Color Spray and pumping it up with metamagics (such as Persistent Spell).

On that note, should we make a list of PF traits that are good for E6? I'm not sure if there are really traits that are extra-good for E6 beyond perhaps the two metamagic reducers I just mentioned. There are a number of high-value traits though, but that should probably be a separate thread.

Offline Nanashi

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2022, 12:47:21 PM »
Extra Traits means traits are feats, so feel free to list them if their bonus is more relevant in E6 than normal.  On that subject, Exemplar Traits might actually be useful in E6 since they let you take Extra Traits multiple times and they scale (to effectively nigh infinite) with every extra trait you have. Charming Smile, Cunning Soul gives a bonus on all social skills that increases, effectively without limit, for each trait you get from its category. Curator of Mystic Secrets is the only really useful one outside of E6, being a worthy feat on its own (no casting time increase for metamagic twice per day) that gets better with every extra trait picked up.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 12:50:06 PM by Nanashi »

Offline Power

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2022, 09:11:34 PM »
The real perk of Exemplar traits is getting multiple traits from the same category. Suppose you go for Faith traits. You use Faith Unshakeable and Unassailable (which gives an ever-escalating trait bonus to saves vs charm, compulsion, and fear effects) and then pump your character with Fate's Favored (a trait that's at least equal to a feat) and Strength of Submission (Heroism is a compulsion effect, making this also better than a regular feat).

At any rate, I have two traits that seem more useful than usual in E6:
  • Ambitious (social): +4 trait bonus to diplomacy vs people with at least 5 more HD than you
  • Domineering (magic): +1 DC to 1st-level enchantment spell of choosing
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 10:18:13 AM by Power »

Offline Power

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2022, 11:04:06 AM »
I have some more PF feats:
  • Ready for Anything: You can always act in a surprise round, even if you fail Perception checks. Ordinarily this solid feat is brought down by its four feat prerequisites, but in E6 you have plenty of feats to spare and your Perception does not scale with your enemies. All of its prerequisites are also actually reasonably decent feats to have.
  • Dimensional Dervish: Full attack with Dimension Door and you can teleport between each attack. Normally the feat chain is very obnoxious to utilize (especially since you need to have the ability to cast Dimension Door before you get the first feat) that by the time you finish it, the game is so high level martials are nearly irrelevant unless you used feat retraining rules (which require downtime) to obtain all the feats. Prepared full casters could be expected to obtain Dimensional Dervish at level 11 but they aren't about to go at it full-attacking like martials, unless they're Clerics or Druids (maybe martially built Shamans) I suppose, but then they need to get Dimension Door first.
  • Teleportation Mastery: Highly dependent on multiclassing, but a build comprised of 1 level dips means that your level 6 character has a base fortitude bonus of 12, giving you access to Dimension Door SLA 3/day.
  • Improved Whip Mastery: Normally the 3 feat chain (on top of the Exotic Weapon Proficiency) makes this feat hard to recommend, but in E6 it's pretty viable.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 07:12:55 PM by Power »

Offline Power

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Re: [3.PF] Feats that are particularly good in E6?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2022, 12:53:32 PM »
You'd have to be playing a PF Samurai, but Unconquerable Resolve gives you +1 temporary hp per hit die for 24 hours whenever you use resolve and can be stacked an unlimited number of times. A 5th level Samurai has 3 resolve uses and 2 challenge uses per day (which can refresh resolve) and Order of the Flame (among other orders) allows for more challenges as well, so you get 6 temp HD 6 times per day. Not too impressive at first but once you stick like 7 feats into Unconquerable Resolve, it gives you 42 temporary hp each time you activate resolve (and you can activate it 5-6 times per day, including multiple times in the same combat). It also works if you only dip 1 level of Samurai, but then you only get 2 uses of resolve (1 base and 1 from challenge) per day.

Also, since it scales off of your hit dice, if there is somehow a way to get a Bard's Inspire Greatness early, you can use that to raise the amount of temporary hp resolve gives at the moment of its activation. You can also get more hp from it if you have racial HD with a smaller level adjustment.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 08:20:09 PM by Power »