[Pathfinder] Witch Handbook discussion thread

[StreamOfTheSky]

Please discuss anything relating to The Witch Handbook in this thread.

[akalsaris]

So, I had my first session as a witch today, and I had a question - how do DMs in your games rule on the Slumber hex's casting time? As the handbook notes, it is basically the best Hex in the game, and available from 1st level onwards to boot, so it raised some questions over its balance at the table today.

One of the points that slowed down game play was that one player was arguing that its casting time should be as the Sleep spell - a 1 round casting time. The opposite argument is that hexes are a standard action unless otherwise specified. The player argued that Sleep is too powerful an effect to be a standard action, with the counter being that yes, it's strong, but that's just the way it is.

[Curious]

That's pretty clear-cut.  Hexes are standard actions unless otherwise specified.  Slumber does not specify otherwise.  Your player is arguing about how he thinks Slumber should be, not how it is.

[radionausea]

Just noticed the Honeyed Words trait that can add another +1 to the DC of Slumber.

Dreamspeaker Elf Witch, 20 int, Ability Focus,
Traits: Adopted ((Dwarf) Honeyed Words)

Is DC 20 at level one.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That's pretty clear-cut.  Hexes are standard actions unless otherwise specified.  Slumber does not specify otherwise.  Your player is arguing about how he thinks Slumber should be, not how it is.

Exactly this.  Slumber is clearly way better than any other hex.  But it's also IMO the only mechanical reason to even play a Witch over a Wizard.  So...blame Paizo for their crappy sense of balance?  In the Sleep spell's defense, it can also hit multiple targets, at least.

Just noticed the Honeyed Words trait that can add another +1 to the DC of Slumber.

Dreamspeaker Elf Witch, 20 int, Ability Focus,
Traits: Adopted ((Dwarf) Honeyed Words)

Is DC 20 at level one.

Not bad.  Link: here.  Paizo needs to stop freaking re-using the same names for things, Honeyed Words is also the name of a cruddy Rogue Talent.  I'll add this when I update my handbook.  And I'll resist the urge to angrily rant on how ugly and disorganzied the entire traits system is, the poor balance between what many of them can do, why traits are placed in the categories they are despite often flying directly in the face of basic logic, or how almost all the really powerful traits are inexplicably placed in the Religion or Faith categories and how it's dumb those are separate categories to begin with.  Any one of those is deserving of a full page rant, but I'm too lazy to do it.
EDIT: Or the arbitrary assignment of races to traits for no percievable reason ("dwarf gets all the good stuff" does seem to be a general guideline, though) and these sometimes going into the "Racial Traits" category but much more often not.  God I hate PF traits!

[Wings of Peace]

Beast-bonded deserves mention I think.  By my reading having a dead familiar inside you shouldn't hinder spell preparation and so may be beneficial to the paranoid Witch.

[TheQ]

I've got one better. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/companion-figurine is a better way to hide your familiar. There are a few downsides though. Its got a price tag, and it costs a feat.

I did look through Beast-bonded, I'm not sure why you would want to be one up through lvl 9. The level 10 Twin Soul ability is interesting though. If I'm reading it right in the event of death you and your familiar can inhabit the same body. This means that the risks for Magic Jar / Marionette Possession are greatly reduced.  This could make for an interesting Body Snatcher build.  I would check with the DM before starting this build tho, Magic Jar can get out of hand quickly. Also, Marionette Possession needs errata as its will save contradicts itself. 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Updated with the UM archetypes, mentioning Honeyed Words trait, and the Spellslinger dip trick.  Not sure if I'll ever expand to the more obscure splats for the other archetypes, but I feel kind of compelled to warn against the White Haired Witch in case a newbie reading my guide were considering it.

[Agita]

Updated with the UM archetypes, mentioning Honeyed Words trait, and the Spellslinger dip trick.  Not sure if I'll ever expand to the more obscure splats for the other archetypes, but I feel kind of compelled to warn against the White Haired Witch in case a newbie reading my guide were considering it.

You could always tack on another post specifically for more obscure sources.

[StreamOfTheSky]

My main concern with delving into other sources is opening the floodgates.  I'm so lazy it's going to be tough to 100% complete this thing as it is, don't even want to think about updating it with every little setting splat book paizo prints...

[StreamOfTheSky]

So, something interesting was brought to my attention in the zen archer discussion thread...

Honeyed Words requires being a dwarf, however, it is a religion trait, NOT a race trait.  Adopted says, "Benefit: Select a race trait from your adoptive parents’ race. "

By RAW, you cannot get Honeyed Words, or *ANY* trait that requires a certain race but is not actually a race trait, without actually being that race.  This is most unfortunate...  *Shakes his fist as paizo's incredibly arbitrary and poorly thought out and balanced traits system strikes again*

[deuxhero]

Yeah, the trait system is a mess. Lack of a table on the SRD makes it hard to find things of value.

I went through everything but religion and campaign traits for Summoners and half of them were "+1 to two skills", another chunk was "+1 to two skills, one is a class skill" or "+1 to a skill and it is a class skill", but those were at least taking (esp with Summoner due to Charisma focus and no social skills), then you had a bunch of "+2 to x saves in this very narrow capacity" or "+1 save against this school of magic" which was stupid because you can grab +1 universal to that save and most of the ones I found were for schools that only had one save (Enchantment and Illusion).

Any idea what the notice saying something is fan created or a conversion mean? I'd assume it's 3rd party or 3.5 stuff, but the ones I checked the source for listed Pazio as the publisher and books about stuff from the PF campaign setting. Are these in error and meant to be the PF accessory logo?

Edit:
I'm a masochist and started doing religion traits for Summoner. Empty Heart, Full Heart gives your enemies -1 to will saves of your charm spells and only requires worshiping Naderi, who is not an out of place choice for a witch.

[Halinn]

Yeah, the trait system is a mess. Lack of a table on the SRD makes it hard to find things of value.

It's a relatively recent thing that they started giving practically everything separate articles. It used to be that everything (within categories, such as Combat Traits or having rage powers be on the barbarian page) was just on one page, with links to the individual descriptions. I have no idea at all why they decided to make it take that much longer to go through everything. It's stupid.

[Psyren]

This handbook has been a lifesaver for me. Currently running a Witch from 1st to 9th-level in a really fast-paced campaign.

There's an archetype I think deserves mention, that I didn't currently see in the handbook. From the PFS Field Guide - the Dimensional Occultist.

You give up three hexes, which ordinarily would be a pretty bad deal, but two of the three abilities you get seem pretty nice to me - CoP made even easier, and the ability to teleport/plane shift to a designated sanctum without error for easy escape. The augment ability is pretty mediocre even for its intended effect, which seems to be pre-buffing or warding. But what really drew me to this archetype was its new patron, Dimensions - which adds some really awesome spells to the Witch list. You get Rope Trick, Blink, the whole Planar Binding line... even Gate!

Given the dearth of decent Patrons out there for Witches, I thought this might be worth a mention in the guide.

[radionausea]

Is Dimensions available as a patron for all witches?  Can't see why it wouldn't be as the wording limits dimensional occultists from choosing any other patron but makes no mention of it being only available to them...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Dimensional Occultist is not in the covered sources.  Though at this point maybe I should just give up on that and cover anything PF that's not 3rd party...

It's a pretty solid archetype, mostly for the patron spells.  Which to respond to radionausea, I have no idea if any witch can choose that patron or not.  I suspect RAI is "no," but as with many things in PF it's poorly written and seems to have no such restrictions RAW.

[deuxhero]

"Portents (UM): Ding ding ding!  We have a new loser!  Aside from blood biography (which is totally redundant w/ speak with dead): Every. Single. Spell.  Is. Already. On. Your. List.  W.T.F.?'

You could be generous and assume it was meant for a Words of Power Witch (Oddly enough, bonus spells from Bloodlines, Domains, Mysteries or Patrons are kept and can be cast as standard) because it is also in Ultimate Magic and Witch divination words are lacking.

... and I don't think its very useful even then because most of these wind up redundant with each other and they aren't really good divinations even then. Way to go Pazio! Even when you don't get the spells alreddy this patron is terrible!

edit: Ill Omen is a decent spell to put a wand on to give a familiar, though it requires UMD (and thus not all that any more applicable to you than Sorcerer/Wizard/Any caster with Eldritch Heritage:Arcane beyond being able to create the wand yourself if you or someone you knew ate the feat.). They can't negate the effect even if they recognize it if their action doesn't come between your familiar and you.

[StreamOfTheSky]

But Ill Omen is already on the Witch spell list anyway.  So yeah, Portents is to witch patrons what monk is to PC classes.

[deuxhero]

The comment about Ill Omen was separate from the Portents comments.

edit: OH! Great use for Beguiling Gift. The old Holy (or other aligned) Arrows. IIRC, Pathfinder removes the Wraith clause but not the fact that it results in death, which is generally a boon to that tactic (unless you are a Gravewalker and want a new pet). Still book to head worthy, but RAW legal.

edit 2: I'm not sure Poison the spell was nerfed. The initial damage is lower (but higher in the end, but most fights don't last that long, could take advantage of the Witch's invisibility access), The 3.5 version allows 2 saves to negate it entirely, the 2nd having a different way to calculate the DC for some reason, the PF allows only 1. Not sure it's a GOOD spell, but not sure it's nerfed.

[McPoyo]

Figured I'd throw this out there, because you listed not seeing any possible use for it, but the "make your hut move" hex could be neatly combined with the create demiplane series of spells to create a mobile hideout, since a doorway within the hut could easily be the free portal you can have with the spell.