SorO's Handbook Dicussions

[SorO_Lost]

1. Under Artificier, you mention the dedicated wright as being useless ... Ability Rip from Serpent Kingdoms actually isn't that great except for getting rid of undesirable Supernatural abilities you have.

1. Prior to that I mentioned how fundamentally worthless it is for an adventurer to spend any effort on crafting. You're still at XP costs.

Trivial point,

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Q: Why can't a wizard make money with item creation feats? And if he can't, then who is selling them at full price? If a wizard cannot make profit from item creation feats, then what use are those feats, other then making items for himself or the party?
--Jacob

A: The economy of the D&D world isn¹t intended to reflect a real-world economic model, but to provide a playable, balanced game experience that incents characters to go on adventures rather than sit at home in a laboratory.

The item creation feats exist for two reasons:
To explain how magic items come to exist in the world; and <- NPC Flavor, like the existence of Profession & Expert.
To allow PCs to create items they need but aren¹t able to find or purchase. <- Your DM is ignoring the DMG and needs hit with it.

If characters could make a profit crafting and selling magic items, then they don¹t need to go on adventures. But D&D isn't a game about running a business, it's a game about exploring dungeons, slaying dragons, and going home with piles of gold and shiny new magic items. Thus, those are the activities its rules are designed to support best.

Even the game designers don't give a shit about the Artificer's ability to craft stuff, half the reason it was even printed as to explain how Eberron reduces high costing "wondrous" magical items to lightbulbs and microwaves for your average commoner.

2.  It only lasts for 1 hour/level, which can still be a nice boon sometimes, but it is definitely nowhere near what you make it out to be.

I know I undersold it, I was originally thinking of combining the Polymorph & ASA to infinity fuel Ability Rip. I can't help but everything I'd say in the entry wouldn't be read as "get Manipulate Form" either.

One of these days I'll fix it, and probably open combination tricks. It's be nice to get the Dark Chaos shuffle in there too.

[linklord231]

Dedicated Wright lets the Arty do other things while crafting, but doesn't change the fact that you still need months of in game time to make high end stuff, or let him craft multiple items at the same time.

[vaz]

At higher levels, you can afford a scroll of genesis (or wish one into existence). Do the whole 10:1 time trait thing. 1 month becomes 3 days. Not to mention any artificer without Exceptional Artisan is going to struggle.

[SorO_Lost]

At higher levels, you can afford a scroll of genesis (or wish one into existence). Do the whole 10:1 time trait thing. 1 month becomes 3 days. Not to mention any artificer without Exceptional Artisan is going to struggle.

Unless otherwise noted (and Genesis don't), all Time traits default to Normal Time. So no, you don't Genesis anything. You can however planes shift to the Region of Dreams (grayhawk, aka default D&D) or Dal Quar (eberron), Faerun should have one as well but honestly never cared to look.

Dedicated Wright lets the Arty do other things while crafting, but doesn't change the fact that you still need months of in game time to make high end stuff, or let him craft multiple items at the same time.

This is not the homebrew or houserule forum, the Dedicated Wight offers nothing because crafting offers nothing.

[snakeman830]

Dedicated Wright lets the Arty do other things while crafting, but doesn't change the fact that you still need months of in game time to make high end stuff, or let him craft multiple items at the same time.

This is not the homebrew or houserule forum, the Dedicated Wight offers nothing because crafting offers nothing.

Dedicated Wright does let you get items for cheaper (and you have a class feature that is purely for crafting), so yes, it does offer something.

However, the idea is that you plane shift the Dedicated Wright to Dal Quor (or another fast-time plane) and have it craft there.  Get exactly the item you want at half the cost in a tenth of the time.  Sounds pretty good to me.

Also, something else on the Artificier is that it explicitly does, in fact, have a Caster Level (Infusions have a Caster Level relation just like spells do, it's just neither arcane or divine).  Honestly, there are quite a few things you just got flat-out wrong on the Artificier.

[SorO_Lost]

1. Dedicated Wright does let you get items for cheaper (and you have a class feature that is purely for crafting), so yes, it does offer something.

2. However, the idea is that you plane shift the Dedicated Wright to Dal Quor (or another fast-time plane) and have it craft there.  Get exactly the item you want at half the cost in a tenth of the time.  Sounds pretty good to me.

3. Also, something else on the Artificier is that it explicitly does, in fact, have a Caster Level (Infusions have a Caster Level relation just like spells do, it's just neither arcane or divine).  Honestly, there are quite a few things you just got flat-out wrong on the Artificier.

1.This statement is 100% against WBL and the quoted Ask Wizards article on this page.

2. Of course, someone has to know what their doing around here.

3. Some of his Infusions reference a caster level, the copy & paste ones at least, but can you honestly prove this is not a same-name fallacy?

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Remember, the Artificer's Infusion entry never once states the Artificer has a CL. The only time those two words appear is

Item Creation (Ex): An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. ... The artificer must make a successful check for each prerequisite for each item he makes. ...For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer’s effective caster level equals his artificer level +2. If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses
the artificer’s actual level as its caster level.

Where as you can see, he is assigned a CL equal to his Artificer level +0/+2. The same thing is found in Spell Storing Item, the replicated Spell is assigned a CL equal to your Artificer Level.

Per Complete Arcane for the purposes of meeting Feat & PrC based Caster Level Requirements creatures with Spell-Like Abilities can use their Class or Fixed-Value in the place of Spells. The Artificer has neither of those, his "caster level" as you pretend he has doesn't do anything at this point.

Magic of Eberron provides an exception to the above rules allowing an Artificer's pretend CL to meet PrC requirements. I suppose this is your version of "explicit", a Sidebar in another fucking book that only provides an exception for PrCs, it neither states the Artificer's "caster level" can be used to meet Feat requirements or that you should treat the Artificer's "caster level" in the same manner you do with actual Caster Levels. So by RAW an Artificer can't even select Attune Magical Weapon and your wrong.

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I'm already aware of this and moved on months ago. If you shoot for intent based like I do using such concepts as, Arty lists Attune Weapon, Bind-Elemental has a special Artificer section, MoE probably meant to include Feats, etc. You are still playing in the mystical land of assumption that it also applies outside of PrCs & Feats.

And the glorious kicker.

He cannot for instance benefit from Spell Focus or Reserves of Strength, he can create a Ring of Spell Storing but not cast a Spell in it (not to be confused with his Infusion). he'll never use Greenbound Summoning and cannot expand his "Spells" Known, he can only control 0*4 HD worth of Undead at any given time, and he'll never take levels in Mindbender for Mindsight. This also works in reverse too, no Infusion can be loaded into a Runestaff, your Spell Storing Power cannot be used to hold Infusions, and so on.

And you can check the edit date to know I'm not pulling your leg.
Spell Focus: Adds +1 to the Save DCs of Spells.
Reserves of Strength: Iron Will and Spellcaster 5th
Ring of Spell Storing: Artificer's do not cast Spells.
Greenbound Summoning: Ability to cast any summon nature's ally spell.
Animate Dead: It never says when the limit is checked, only exceeding it causes immediate loss. So what happens if you're hit by a negative level? Or you know, you don't have a real CL?
Mindbender: Arcane caster level 5th.
Runestaff: Requires Spell Slots.
Spell Storing (infusion): Infusions are not Spells.
You could try to refute Animate Dead, but none of the rest can be met by an Artificer even if I pretended you were correct from the beginning.

The phasing is similar to "Stances are not Maneuvers" or "the Colossal+ Size isn't a Size", it's meant to break your expectations. The Artificer is incapable of performing virtually every trick you take for granted with a Wizard or Cleric and that is the primary message meant to be conveyed. And let's face it, this post just over CL is huge. The DMG/MiC/Ask Wizard quotes that tell you and Link to stfu about crafting would be just as long. And we've barely touched the surface of the amount of material it'd take to go in full detail on these articles. If a real mistake is spotted, like maybe asking for that section to be re-worded to be a bit more clear, I attempt to correct it. But if you jump in here with your head up your ass full of just plain fucking terrible points and made up bullshit you're not going to get a nice explanation that was cut out of the article for readability, you're going to get treated as the argumentative dumbass trolling the discussion thread that you are.

[linklord231]

SorO, I'm not sure why you keep bringing me in to this.  My line about the Dedicated Wright was a refutation of the idea that they're the "saving grace" of the Artificer, nothing more. 

Once again:  If you have a DM who strictly enforces the Wealth by Level rules (yes, rules), then there is absolutely no point in any Item Creation feat.  If you outfit the party in half price equipment, you don't get twice as much.  The DM is literally supposed to give you half as much treasure to compensate. 

The only time having a crafter is useful is when the DM isn't following the rules, either by not allowing you to buy the items you're entitled to, or by allowing your to break WBL, or both. 


On the other hand, one could make the argument that Artificers do have a Caster Level beyond "for the purposes of item creation".  The Infusions section clearly says that Infusions "function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells."  One of the rules for spells is that you have a Caster Level, usually "equal to the class level in the class you're using to cast the spell (PHB 171)." 
Perhaps it's a false equivocation fallacy, but there's not a lot of evidence to support the idea that there's a tangible distinction between Caster-Level-for-Infusions and Caster-Level-for-Feats, especially when you consider that Caster-Level-for-Infusions also qualifies as Caster-Level-for-PrCs and Caster-Level-for-Items. 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

hmm ... so as a hypothetical, suppose the DM:
 
a) ... handed out correct WBL, but no items at all

b1) ... hard rules of Town building were in effect (rules btw that I like a lot)
b2) ... items that are available for purchase are extremely limited (very small magic marts if at all)

c1) ... then Item Crafting would be worth it
c2) ... though immediately WBL negatively compensated

later when plane shift + teleport come on line (early entry Jaunter anyone?)
d1) ... hey let's go to Sigil, so we can get around b1 + b2 and don't have to deal with c1
d2) ... still have the c2 limit, and quite a bit of out-of-combat adventuring for gear

Yes ?
 

[SorO_Lost]

If you have a DM who strictly enforces the Wealth by Level rules (yes, rules), then there is absolutely no point in any Item Creation feat.  If you outfit the party in half price equipment, you don't get twice as much.  The DM is literally supposed to give you half as much treasure to compensate.

It goes far beyond that. Read the MiC some time, it tells the DM to give players what they want a dozen times to a point to telling you not to second guess them either. And we're only talking Treasure placement at this point. Under buying it flat out tells you that Players find exactly what they want if the item's price is within the town's GP limit and Rule 0. And the best part, is it exemplifies what you can do with Rule 0 and unlike every other Rule 0 acting as a trump card, it's possible for a Character to bypass them.

The MiC is WotC's official rebuttal to every jackass DM ever.

Perhaps it's a false equivocation fallacy, but there's not a lot of evidence to support the idea that there's a tangible distinction between Caster-Level-for-Infusions and Caster-Level-for-Feats, especially when you consider that Caster-Level-for-Infusions also qualifies as Caster-Level-for-PrCs and Caster-Level-for-Items.

Perhaps, but that's why I choose examples that are not truly based on CL. It's a statement to shatter your line of thinking.

The good news I'm thinking of revising it, and including the blurb from the MiC about how Gather Information can be used to find any Item you want in a town (within gp limits) even if it takes ten years to craft the item and you have five hours to look. Clearly some people need it highlighted in front of them to ever read it.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Wanderer's Diplomacy feat ... diplo check to increase town item gp limit.
Not necessary at higher levels.

Resourceful Buyer feat ... +1 to town gp limit.
Worth keeping.

Spinemeld Warrior PrC 2 ... item CL is a Gather Info check.
I'd presume (but not assume) if this is in effect, that what MiC does with GI is somewhat different.

... The MiC is WotC's official rebuttal to every jackass DM ever ...

(no wonder they brought out 4e right after)

[SorO_Lost]

Wanderer's Diplomacy feat ... diplo check to increase town item gp limit.
Not necessary at higher levels.

Resourceful Buyer feat ... +1 to town gp limit.
Worth keeping.

I didn't even know there were Feats like that. Awesome. Those are going somewhere (arty in class boosters? BBB for forced sellers?)

Spinemeld's Noble Familiarity appears to bypass GP Limitations, through the DC is a little higher.

[Jackinthegreen]

Class booster for Assassin or other class with a Death Attack:

Goggles of Scrutiny, Dragon Mag 330 page 68.

Goggles grant wearer a +2 bonus on all search and spot checks.  In addition, any creature with the death attack special ability need only study a potential victim for 2 rounds instead of 3.  Price: 12,000g.

[Amechra]

For the class boosters, you messed up on one of the one's for the Barbarian; Ettercap Lodge Berserker doesn't give a +2 bonus to Con when raging. It sets the bonus to Con from raging to +6, as well as giving you an inconsequential bonus to saves vs. diseases. It's really, really nice with the variant rages that don't boost Con, like Whirling Frenzy (+4 Str, +6 Con, and an extra attack is excellent, especially at first level.)

Just bumping this forward in case you didn't see it.

Also, Mad-Foam Rager allows you to delay any attack, spell, or ability by one round, not just attacks.

[SorO_Lost]

Yeah I guess I did miss it.

And both fixed. Thanks.

[Amechra]

There's also Frantic Rage from Faiths of Eberron.

Requires the Madness Domain and Rage.

It lets you choose to have your bonus to Strength from Raging apply to Dexterity instead.

On top of that, Battlebred from Player's Guide to Eberron increases the duration of Rage (as well as any effect that gives you a Morale bonus) by two rounds.

(I'm not even sure why I like Barbarians as much as I do.)

[Endarire]

SorO, you aren't just typing to yourself.  I agreed that Warforged and Kobolds are among the most powerful races, but I also feel Humans should be on that list due to being so very versatile and Dragonborn, despite being a template in 3.5, should be a runner up due to who common a template it is.

[Nifft]

I noticed that Scout doesn't list Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel p.78) as one of the class-booster feats, but it totally should.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Wanderer's Diplomacy feat ... diplo check to increase town item gp limit.
Not necessary at higher levels.

Resourceful Buyer feat ... +1 to town gp limit.
Worth keeping.

I didn't even know there were Feats like that. Awesome. Those are going somewhere (arty in class boosters? BBB for forced sellers?)

Spinemeld's Noble Familiarity appears to bypass GP Limitations, through the DC is a little higher.

(bump --- late return but legit)

Wanderer's Dip is good early when the 1000gp divisor makes almost no diff at all.
http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Wanderer~s_Diplomacy
Later though, it trends toward Nanobots level of skill checks necessary to use.

I figure retraining it away, right when Noble Familiarity
kicks in with a much easier (and normal) check.
Resourceful Buyer is still useful, and in combo.

Clearly a DM can nerf magic mart's enough via
availability, or npc rationalization, or social interaction,
to make this nearly but not totally useless.

[SorO_Lost]

The Feat is listed under Artificer, near the bottom under Buy Anything.

The DM can nerf anything but remember that's Rule 0 and even then they have to be reasonable about why you can't.

Buying and Selling Magic Items
A player points to an item published in this book or the Dungeon Master's Guide and asks , "Can I buy this?" The answer should usually be, "Yes."

Magic items are an important part of every character's arsenal of abilities. Most monsters and encounters assume that characters have a certain amount of gear to make the challenge appropriate. Furthermore, at many levels magic items represent a character's only option for customization; picking lip a new magic ring or bag of potion is significantly more fun than allotting skill points.

That's not to say that you can't apply occasional constraints to how and when magic items can be purchased, only that the constraints should be reasonable and shouldn't prevent players from equipping their characters fairly. For instance, a character seeking a magic item should be in a community whose gold piece limit is equal to or greater than the cost of the desired item (see Table 6-10: Community CP Limits). You might also choose to limit particular items for campaign story reasons- maybe the knowledge of how to create certain items is a closely guarded secret of a particular group, or even forgotten to all.

In general, though, you should allow characters with sufficient funds to equip themselves as they desire. Even the most thoughtfully constructed series of treasure hoards almost certainly fails to provide all your players the items they want to maximize their
enjoyment as they advance in level.

Where to Buy
Large one-stop-shop "magic emporiums" are unrealistic and rare even in metropolis-sized cities. Instead, a community's total stock of magic items for sale is widely distributed among dusty alchemist's shops, bookstores , scribers' boutiques, pawn shops, elixir brewers , the residences of retired adventurers, the old mage on the corner, curio shops, and so on.

Except when you want to advance an adventure or campaign story are, abstract the purchase of a particular magic item such that, given a few hours of effort asking around and tracking down the sought-for item, a PC finds and purchases the item she seeks if it market price is equal to or less than the town's gp limit (given in the "PC Purchase Limit" column of Table 6-10: Community GP Limits).

If time is an issue in the purchase of an item (for example, a pair of goggles of night is needed before nightfall), you might require the PC to attempt a Gather Information check to track the item down. Set the DC of the Gather Information check equal to the DC in the Aura entry of each item (which is equal to 15 + 1/ 2 the item's caster level). If the Gather Information check is successful , the PC finds the item within the time constraint. On a failed check, a PC can check again if time permits.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

If you outfit the party in half price equipment, you don't get twice as much.  The DM is literally supposed to give you half as much treasure to compensate.

I find this an abusive interpretation. It's like saying "You pillaged the iron doors off the start of the dungeon and are now rich. Somehow, you'll find it difficult to make any additional money for the next twelve months." All the DM is supposed to do is allow 720k total by level 20. If the PCs want to ignore/squander it they may. Don't reward bad play. Also, don't punish good play/investment in magic items.

The Infusions section clearly says that Infusions "function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells."

Granted, I like nerfing tier 1's (no comment allowed here Soro, we all know how you feel about the arty tier status), but I think Soro is closer to being right here than you are. It's not 100%: you can still limited with an infusion by RAW due to "function like spells." Of course, you can't use ring of the artificer to gain bonus spells for a wizard/arty -- just like sneak attack vs sudden attack one way transparency. But I like the idea that infusions simply function similar to spells so you don't have to learn anything new -- but they still count as a separate system.

tl;dr both soro and linklord are right about crafting: it stretches WBL, but it isn't necessary to find/gain items.