What do people want from a non-casting physical character?

[Solo]

Here's what I've been thinking here in the last 10 minutes. . . make XP a real thing.

[midnight_v]

Dude. What movie IS that?

[SolEiji]

Dude. What movie IS that?

You'd we looking at THE QUIIIIIICKENINNNNNNGGGG!!!!!

Well, it's one of the Highlander movies.  Hopefully not Highlander: The Quickening.  That one blows.

[Unbeliever]

Pretty sure it's the original Highlander.

Note that if you're a fan of Greek myths, you don't need to be charged with magic lightning, or even something so spectacular to go god-slaying.  I actually think Achilles is the only character reputed to have some overtly supernatural power among the Greek heroes (maybe Hercules' strength as well ...).  Conan is another good example of that -- he has no non-mundane skills, he's just fantastic at the mundane stuff (well, and lucky), and he does quite well. 

My point is I'd love to see a character archetype like Odysseus (or Kratos or Conan or pick your favorite flavor) supported in really high level.  I think all it takes is refluffing.  Stuff like Frank and K's foil mechanic, or other kinds of debuffs refluffed to be taking advantage of your (highly supernatural) enemy's weakness.  I'm not against supernatural fiery lightning of fire (tm) or anything, I just don't want it to be a necessity for all characters. 

[Ziegander]

Well, the problem of conceptual dissonance has been brought up once or more in this thread already, but I'd like to touch on a few more aspects of it.

People want their Core classes to work no matter what the setting. Without 4e levels of bland-ness, this doesn't work well for D&D. Consider three different settings - Medieval Europe, where magic exists only in myth; Literary Middle-Earth, where magic is rare and nearly impossible to wield personally; and Classic Forgotten Realms, where the land itself is suffused with magic and magic is easily grasped, categorized, and manipulated by man and tangible god alike. In which settings does a Wizard class work? In which settings does a Fighter class?

The "Core" setting of D&D supposes a "world magic level" somewhere between Middle-Earth and Forgotten Realms. Magic is easy enough to learn and manipulate but the world itself isn't, by default, permeated with raw magic. This sort of setting is where a Wizard class definitely works, but shares only a scant few characteristics with settings in which a Fighter class works. This is, at least partially, the reason non-casting physical characters expressly do not work most of the time in D&D.

An interesting approach to game design, with respect to the OP's question, would be to imagine how a non-casting physical adventurer could possibly be successful in various settings. In Medieval Europe this is easy to do. In Middle-Earth it takes some imagination, but with a few interesting plot devices your generic "questing knight" works well-enough here as well. In Forgotten Realms, the questing knight archetype just doesn't work. So, what does a non-casting physical character look like in Forgotten Realms? What does it do? How does it operate? How does a mundane adventurer survive to higher game levels in a world where the ground he walks on may be saturated with blessings, curses, spellfire, etc? These questions were never sufficiently answered as far as D&D is concerned, but if answered properly may prove to create very interesting classes indeed.

To sum up, and to answer Endarirre's original question, from a non-casting physical character, I want my actions to not only make sense with respect to the game world, but to be as valid and impactful within that world as the other "casting mental" characters (or whatever else exists).

[midnight_v]

So, what does a non-casting physical character look like in Forgotten Realms? What does it do? How does it operate?

Looks like a drow elf using two curved swords.

It pretty much continues to exist because of either "a" plot contrivance or "b" having unique and (relatively) powerful magical items. Mostly its the A though.


I mean don't get me wrong I love the books, and the setting but... we know it doesn't work like portrayed. I mean I read as that guy cut down a balor  and glabrezu. The build they provide doesn't match up. So...
Yeah... largely you're in that world as it stands as a caster, or a Magic Item Barbie.  I was hoping for something better, when I decided to write fighter at the top of my sheet.

[veekie]

^^
Actually, in Drizzt's case, Salvatore only used the setting alone, he writes fights but they have nothing to do with actual mechanics.

[Prime32]

^^
Actually, in Drizzt's case, Salvatore only used the setting alone, he writes fights but they have nothing to do with actual mechanics.

IIRC his editors hate this and try to make him stay closer.

[veekie]

His readers don't care, because thats what makes his fight scenes actually any good. They're dynamic, with lots of motions and stunts that'd probably fit in Exalted more than they did in D&D. But he brings in the readers and players. So he gets to write like he wants to.

[Endarire]

Ziegander: I saw your response as this.

In Medieval Europe and Middle Earth, you can succeed fairly well at your performance of Spamalot.  In Faerun, there are better acts that will come alive and kill you/petrify you/make you insane/slap you with a fish.

midnight_v: If you can get past the "walk into Hell" part (assume a convenient portal) and find the demon (assume plot convenience), you still need to contend with the Hellish environment and the other creatures and hazards in the area.  How do you do that?  With magic and psionics.  A "Samurai" who's a Warblade/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage could do it, but a plain ol' martial adept couldn't.  (With the right items, anyone can do it.)

[Ziegander]

Ziegander: I saw your response as this.

In Medieval Europe and Middle Earth, you can succeed fairly well at your performance of Spamalot.  In Faerun, there are better acts that will come alive and kill you/petrify you/make you insane/slap you with a fish.

Sure, that's a fair summation of my post. Now, just because Spamalot isn't a viable option in Faerun doesn't mean that there are no viable non-casting physical character options for Faerun. It does mean that WotC never created any such options. I'm becoming convinced that in order to create a properly balanced D&D-like game, character classes need to be tailored to the setting they are expected to be played in. Even in a "Core" game, a setting is implied by the Monster Manual and the DMG, so if a character class doesn't work in that implied setting, then it needs to be redesigned. This is partially why Core 3.5 is so broken: the implied setting is too dangerous for half of the classes in the PHB and not dangerous enough for the other half.

midnight_v: If you can get past the "walk into Hell" part (assume a convenient portal) and find the demon (assume plot convenience), you still need to contend with the Hellish environment and the other creatures and hazards in the area.  How do you do that?  With magic and psionics.  A "Samurai" who's a Warblade/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage could do it, but a plain ol' martial adept couldn't.  (With the right items, anyone can do it.)

I think he means that he would want a non-casting physical character to be able to do such a thing, not that he thinks a Samurai could do it, martial adept, gish, or otherwise. But I'll let him speak for himself.

[Prime32]

Sure, that's a fair summation of my post. Now, just because Spamalot isn't a viable option in Faerun doesn't mean that there are no viable non-casting physical character options for Faerun. It does mean that WotC never created any such options. I'm becoming convinced that in order to create a properly balanced D&D-like game, character classes need to be tailored to the setting they are expected to be played in. Even in a "Core" game, a setting is implied by the Monster Manual and the DMG, so if a character class doesn't work in that implied setting, then it needs to be redesigned. This is partially why Core 3.5 is so broken: the implied setting is too dangerous for half of the classes in the PHB and not dangerous enough for the other half.

Part of this being how no one is ever described as having taken measures against common spells? (the DMG does suggest having all your town guards keep powerful offensive scrolls in reserve, but only if your PCs keep attacking guards)

You can solve some issues by adding/modifying special materials - maybe there's a type of stone which generates "scrying static", and which you don't need to be a caster to build stuff out of. Trees grown in particular places are attuned to the spirit world, and objects made from them can interact with incorporeal beings.

Or maybe magic is tightly controlled by the government, and unlicenced spellcasting makes you a fugitive. If you persist you'll be hunted by Spell Eaters that can smell magic.

Also, all kings need to have magic crowns which grant immunity to things like divination and mind-affecting effects, coming from an earlier age where magic was more awesome and only working for members of the bloodline for whom they were created. If they have other regalia they're just as powerful. Lesser nobles get less powerful stuff.
Or just say that the Divine Right of Kings/Mandate of Heaven is true, and all kings are demigods. As a bonus you can have a class where you become more qualified to be a king as you gain levels (or just say "being rightful king of the world and being level 20 are the same thing"). If you try to rule a nation without meeting the prerequisites then you get Macbeth-style things like terrible weather and animals being born deformed.

[Libertad]

What Prime32 said.

Also, Manual of the Planes suggested that certain materials can block ethereal creatures, like living plant matter.  This is an attempt to provide a cheap means of preventing creatures like Shadows from running all over the Material Plane

Faerun's a hit and miss in regards to magic.  In the 3rd Edition sourcebook, the introduction pretty much stated that magic and spellcasters are a major part of the world.  At least they're not being deceptive. 

Some of the governments got smart and incorporate magic into the system.  Halruaa is basically magic on socialism: almost everyone can cast a cantrip or two, and spells and magic items are utilized to benefit everyone.  In Thay, the spellcasters are leaders of the nation and hoard their power ruthlessly.  The city-state of Waterdeep made a guild for spellcasters: through deals with existing guilds, magic-users which make magic items that can theoretically invalidate existing non-magic alternatives are regulated and restricted so that mundane commoners and experts won't go out of business.  However, spellcasters can sell their services to the guilds, who then get a cut of the profit.

Faerun made attempts to incorporate magic into everyday life, but I don't know how feasible these ideas are from a practical standpoint.

[oslecamo]

Also, all kings need to have magic crowns which grant immunity to things like divination and mind-affecting effects, coming from an earlier age where magic was more awesome and only working for members of the bloodline for whom they were created. If they have other regalia they're just as powerful. Lesser nobles get less powerful stuff.
Or just say that the Divine Right of Kings/Mandate of Heaven is true, and all kings are demigods.

Well, one of the sugested ways godhood can be achieved in D&D is worship. Thus it's perfectly reasonable someone could get powerful just because they're liked/feared by lots of people.

On the other hand, D&D has gods, outsiders, feys and plenty of other otherworldy factions with their own agendas. You can't make a seting and pretend only humans are fighting for power. The king may simply have the backup of a pit fiend/solar that has been serving his family for millenia. The otherking made a pact with the feys of the land to guarantee his power (cough King Artur cough). Selling your soul to demons for power and all that cool stuff we see in stories all the time.

[midnight_v]

midnight_v: If you can get past the "walk into Hell" part (assume a convenient portal) and find the demon (assume plot convenience), you still need to contend with the Hellish environment and the other creatures and hazards in the area.  How do you do that?  With magic and psionics.  A "Samurai" who's a Warblade/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage could do it, but a plain ol' martial adept couldn't.  (With the right items, anyone can do it.)

1. The Journey I mean like Orpheus, Izanagi, and Inanna if you're familiar. So yeah I don't know if there's a "convient portal" or if you just start walking and will yourself there like any warrior on a spirit journey except this one leads you to the hell of your choosing.
So either is fine, you pick up your "swords" grit you teeth and start walkng into the desert/wilderness and end up in limbo or what have you. If he has to walk to a "place where the walls are weak" etc... well whatever thats fluff.
Point: the Major thing that keeps non-casters out of high level adventure is "you can't get there" that would have to stop. Finding a sustainable fluff is just a part of it, redefining "how magic interacts with non mages" is a part of it to.
2. Hellish Enviornment sufficently high level non-casters need to be able to "Not care" about things like "ambient temperature" (even in hell) or really eviornmental hazards in general.
You're level 20? Go head swim to the bottom of the ocean. Walk across that volcano... whatever. At certain points non mages need to immunities that they need no care about things like that.
Again: otherwise they can't partake in high level adventure.
A part of it is the lack of mental reinforcement that: Human achievement on earth ends at level 5 or so, our myths don't even go beyond level  10 (if that)
So there really has to be some kind of explanation that at level X: human limits no longer apply. Period.
3. Other Creatures in the area.
The MAIN point of being a 20th level Samurai-Barbarian-Figther etc. . . is the ability to kill things even lots of things.
EVEN ARMIES of things with your shiny sticks. So killing hordes of hellish creatures to find one BBEG is par for course.
It shouldn't be an issue for a last level bad ass to kill. . . 5 vrocks, 4 glabrzeu or 3 mariliths, and they should be able to do it 4 times or more depending on the combination of enemies.
Now there maybe just too many demons in a citidel all at once *shrug* but thats just like having a citidel of high level humans with class levels.
Placing it in hell just drives the point home...
The 20 the level X needs to be able to deal with challenges.
Problem being only 20 level casters can do so with ease and effiency.
Problem 2 being most cr 20 enemies are casters too. ( or puzzle monsters)

Ultimately, what people want is for those character to be able to meet challenges without resorting to hokum and hex.
There should be a melee equivalent to casting solid fog but its really hard to let the melee dude walk around the battlefield making a stun attack vs everyone apparently.

[veekie]

You know, one lousy assumption in most of the game systems is that magic is somehow distinct from the world itself. Sure, casters have the cheat codes to reality to directly alter matters in a quick and direct manner, but in myth everything is magic.

Forging a sword itself is magical. You take a bunch of rocks, apply fire, air and water with skill and you get a sharp stick that kills people you poke it into. A master smith makes legendary and enchanted sword with no spells involved, just his skill. Metallurgy? Magic. Chemistry? Magic too. Science? Magic.
Likewise for wardings, certain herbs hung in an area prevent witches from appearing in your house(presumably blocking teleportation, since they still can come through the door). Faeries cannot pass a doorway with a horseshoe placed just so. Rings of salt or sulfur repels demons or disease alike.
Spells can be broken by invoking the divine, though not as quickly or cleanly as that invoked by a cleric proper(who'd probably equate with saints and prophets really), it might force the effect into abeyance. Alternatively a sage might know the exact nature of the spell and metaphysically short it out with the right phrase.
For travel, there is always a path, you just need to know the secrets of travel(represented by survival skill), three times round a hill counter clockwise at night takes you to faerie, walking backwards at a crossroad at midnight drops you into hell, etc. Heck, even Asgard is accessible with Bifrost, if you knew the charms to catch a rainbow.

Differentiating magic and non-magic is kind of silly when the era depicted considers everything magic.

[SneeR]

You know, one lousy assumption in most of the game systems is that magic is somehow distinct from the world itself. Sure, casters have the cheat codes to reality to directly alter matters in a quick and direct manner, but in myth everything is magic.

Forging a sword itself is magical. You take a bunch of rocks, apply fire, air and water with skill and you get a sharp stick that kills people you poke it into. A master smith makes legendary and enchanted sword with no spells involved, just his skill. Metallurgy? Magic. Chemistry? Magic too. Science? Magic.
Likewise for wardings, certain herbs hung in an area prevent witches from appearing in your house(presumably blocking teleportation, since they still can come through the door). Faeries cannot pass a doorway with a horseshoe placed just so. Rings of salt or sulfur repels demons or disease alike.
Spells can be broken by invoking the divine, though not as quickly or cleanly as that invoked by a cleric proper(who'd probably equate with saints and prophets really), it might force the effect into abeyance. Alternatively a sage might know the exact nature of the spell and metaphysically short it out with the right phrase.
For travel, there is always a path, you just need to know the secrets of travel(represented by survival skill), three times round a hill counter clockwise at night takes you to faerie, walking backwards at a crossroad at midnight drops you into hell, etc. Heck, even Asgard is accessible with Bifrost, if you knew the charms to catch a rainbow.

Differentiating magic and non-magic is kind of silly when the era depicted considers everything magic.

You have opened my eyes to a new way of thinking. Thank you.

[Endarire]

What are we expecting this 'mundane' character to do by level?  Sure, he can do spiffy stuff at 20, but anyone who gets to 20 has a large chance of being spiffy.  What about at level 5, 10, 13, 15, 17, and 20?

[oslecamo]

Differentiating magic and non-magic is kind of silly when the era depicted considers everything magic.

So go play 4e?

Because last time I checked, the blacksmith that forges weapons for the crusade is considered nonmagic, but the witch that goes around brewing potions and casting spells is considered magic and would be burned in a nonmagic pyre after being tied with a nonmagic rope/manacles.

The blacksmith that starts pouring chicken blood under the moonlight claiming it reinforces his weapons, now that's magic, and he would also be burned at the pyre. People always saw a diference between magic and non-magic. That's why we freaking created the word "magic" to begin with goddamnit!

[veekie]

Because last time I checked, the blacksmith that forges weapons for the crusade is considered nonmagic, but the witch that goes around brewing potions and casting spells is considered magic and would be burned in a nonmagic pyre after being tied with a nonmagic rope/manacles.

Actually, there is a fundamental difference. Using magic is not what you get burned at the pyre for. Consorting with dark powers for spells(the aforementioned cheat codes to reality) was the actual crime(whether said witches are actually guilty varies), rather than using the magical god-given gifts of nature.