Homebrew Setting: Magipunk (brainstorming -- input needed)

[Garryl]

Yeah, that's weird. Somehow, this setting has moved crystals from psionics to magic whole hog.

[sirpercival]

Lol!  I promise more Psi love will come.  I have some ideas in that regard -- the Psykin/Crystal Mage class will be all about the crystals, for example.

So... I'm not sure what to do with the guns.  Here are some options, I could do some or all of these (or none if we have better ideas):

1) Forget about the crystal guns and just use d20 Modern guns adapted for a gp economy.
2) Do a couple things to beef up the crystal guns so they are more useful.  For example, I could change it back to a ranged touch attack, and/or I could remove the reflex for half (since Swarm of Crystals doesn't allow one).
3) Lower the price of the crystal guns.  Currently they're calculated using the item rules, so any reduction in price would be eyeballing.

Thoughts?

[Wrex]

Lol!  I promise more Psi love will come.  I have some ideas in that regard -- the Psykin/Crystal Mage class will be all about the crystals, for example.

So... I'm not sure what to do with the guns.  Here are some options, I could do some or all of these (or none if we have better ideas):

1) Forget about the crystal guns and just use d20 Modern guns adapted for a gp economy.
2) Do a couple things to beef up the crystal guns so they are more useful.  For example, I could change it back to a ranged touch attack, and/or I could remove the reflex for half (since Swarm of Crystals doesn't allow one).
3) Lower the price of the crystal guns.  Currently they're calculated using the item rules, so any reduction in price would be eyeballing.

Thoughts?

1. I don't know enough about d20 modern. Do they have an SRD?
2. They are fairly powerful already, just not in proportion with the price.
3. The problem with the item rules is that they fall apart when applied to mass produced items, as those items would simply be too expensive for them to be used by the masses. I think pricing them based on the general damage they do, and something more in scale with the economy is probably in order. For example, a typical citizen should be able to afford a handgun. However, it depends on how much you want the mundane weapons and armors replaced. Should these hand cannons replace things like bows, or should they exist side by side? Before a real deciscion on this question can be reached, certain things about your world should probably be decided.

[sirpercival]

Well, in a cyberpunk setting, very few people use bows because guns are more effective.  But this is science fantasy, with magic instead of tech.  I'm ok with keeping bows around, but I also think it's likely they'll be a lot less common because the guns (built off magic) are more effective.

http://www.scratchfactory.com/ModernSRD/Home.php

[Garryl]

Don't make them touch attacks. You already have the energy guns for that. Just reduce the prices. Start by working with the baseline (bows and crossbows) and build up from there.

Touch attacks make the energy weapons great as secondary weapons (since you can actually hit despite devoted next to no resources to it), but the high cost per shot makes them prohibitive as primary weapons. They can also be used well by proficient users willing to shell out the cash with grade 3 and/or HEX/Splash crystals, but again the price is too much to rely on. So make standard guns the viable primary weapon for the blaster master, who might switch to an energy gun for special occasions. Heck, better idea. Just cannibalize your existing energy guns. Make their standard shots be cheap (or even free) crystal bullets or whatever, with special energy crystals (like the Int'ars that they used for trained in SG-1) that can be fit in for an extra energy-based boost (namely, the current energy gun stats and effects). That way, you don't even have to re-enchant a second weapon when you want to pull out the big guns, and you get a similar effect to bows with enchanted arrows. The existing prices for the raw guns (without crystals) are already in the right range.

[Wrex]

Well, in a cyberpunk setting, very few people use bows because guns are more effective.  But this is science fantasy, with magic instead of tech.  I'm ok with keeping bows around, but I also think it's likely they'll be a lot less common because the guns (built off magic) are more effective.

http://www.scratchfactory.com/ModernSRD/Home.php

Guns may be more effective, but depending on the price, a bow may be more affordable to say, the average thug. The way I see it, is that the simple guns are sort of like a Saturday Night Special: Something cheap, lightweight, and fairly dangerous, and anywhere from 25-50 GP seems appropriate in my mind. The Simple Rifle, whatever it ends up getting fluffed as, could be safely priced at the 75-100 GP range, probably. The martial variations would cost about double. I have little experience with automatic weapons in dice systems, but a better variant in my eyes would be allowing you to TWF with an automatic weapon. It's an abstraction, and may justify an "Automatic Gun Handling" feat, but it accomplishes the feeling of a lot of attacks without making armor useless like it is in real life.

[Jackinthegreen]

Usually trying to make guns and arrows do similar damage will be quite tough because they realistically don't.  Not only that, but bows are martial because they take quite some training to use effectively.  Most guns don't require as much training to use to the same caliber (pardon the pun.)  After all, aren't guns just an advancement of crossbows?  Preloaded ammunition ready to be fired, and repeatable now too.

Energy ammo I can see still being a touch attack, but if we're dealing with physical ammo then a standard attack roll against normal AC should work.  As many animals prove, natural armor can be quite effective against projectiles.

[sirpercival]

Ugh.  No consensus, then.

Alright, here's the plan, stolen from Garryl (as usual).  I'm going to make a cheaper version of ammo for the energy guns.  Crystal crystals (lol).  They'll require a regular touch attack and be piercing damage, and the grade 3 version will not have a rider effect.

I'll also make a weapon enchantment: "automatic", which lets you spend multiple charges to do an AoE with your gun.

[Wrex]

Ugh.  No consensus, then.

Alright, here's the plan, stolen from Garryl (as usual).  I'm going to make a cheaper version of ammo for the energy guns.  Crystal crystals (lol).  They'll require a regular touch attack and be piercing damage, and the grade 3 version will not have a rider effect.

I'll also make a weapon enchantment: "automatic", which lets you spend multiple charges to do an AoE with your gun.

A regular ranged attack, you mean. It seems like a bit of a patch job, but it's worth doing, at least  figure out how/if it works.

As far as bows go, auto adjust to STR (yay compound bow!) and no penalty for sniping should give them a good niche.

[sirpercival]

Yes, I'll make those changes.

[FireInTheSky]

Don't forget to add Trigger and Grunt to the Index.

[Jackinthegreen]

Will Point Blank Shot be made more worthwhile?  One thought I had for it was to allow the user to not provoke AoOs with projectiles in melee range.

[Sneaky_Sable]

There's a feat that does something similar in Pathfinder: Point Blank Master

(click to show/hide)

Point Blank Master (Combat)

You are adept at firing ranged weapons in close quarters.
Prerequisite: Weapon Specialization with selected ranged weapon.
Benefit: Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.
Normal: Using a ranged weapon while you are threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery combat style may select Point Blank Master as a combat style feat, but he must have Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization in the selected weapon.

The primary issue is the prospect of one feat negating all attacks of opportunity you provoke from using any ranged weapon in melee may be a bit too much.

[Jackinthegreen]

That one's a good alternative, yes.  I hadn't really thought to look if PF stuff.

[Sneaky_Sable]

That one's a good alternative, yes.  I hadn't really thought to look if PF stuff.

For the longest time I didn't want anything to do with Pathfinder, thinking it was D&D 3.75 Revision 2 Beta or whatever. Then I was convinced by a friend to crack open the cover, and I haven't regretted it yet.

[sirpercival]

Yes, I am planning on fixing PBS.  Haven't done it yet, though.  I will soon, I promise

[sirpercival]

OK, a PBS fix is in Magipunk Feats --> altered feats section.

[Garryl]

Adding the full character level to attack rolls seems excessive, especially given that archers usually seem to have very good attack bonuses already (or so I always hear).

Any reason you didn't do the other common fix component of negating AoOs for firing in melee? You can usually get around that issue with a 5' step anyways, so I don't think it's that big a deal. Spellcasters can cast defensively, so the idea of ranged attacks that don't provoke isn't exactly a foreign concept.

[sirpercival]

Adding the full character level to attack rolls seems excessive, especially given that archers usually seem to have very good attack bonuses already (or so I always hear).

...yeah you're right.

Any reason you didn't do the other common fix component of negating AoOs for firing in melee? You can usually get around that issue with a 5' step anyways, so I don't think it's that big a deal. Spellcasters can cast defensively, so the idea of ranged attacks that don't provoke isn't exactly a foreign concept.

I'll replace the attack roll bonus with this.

[Jackinthegreen]

What of the oddity with PBS where it's the prereq for Far Shot?  My first thought for fixing them would be having either as a base with no prereqs, then have Precise Shot et al require either one.