Author Topic: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?  (Read 85914 times)

Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #120 on: December 29, 2011, 02:48:56 AM »
On the subject of bayonets, I recall in about 2003/2004, when I first ran my own campaign, we played the WarCraft setting. Many of their illustrations for guns at the time built up the idea of various bayonets and other attached blades, turning them not just into spears, but also axes, glaives, and even hand-axes, by putting a small blade on the end of the grip of a pistol. Not incredibly realistic, but a nice conceit to the idea of combining efforts. (They still have them on a few of the guns in World of Warcraft, concept art anyways, though as nothing more than decoration.)

(Sort of the same as the Orc Archer mini from the first of the collectable D&D Miniatures sets, Harbinger. He had a bow with axeblades attached just above and below the grip. I always thought that was an interesting idea, though impractical, keeping the character armed in melee even while using a ranged weapon. Seemed ripe for a weapon-mod, but I never saw anything come of it.)
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Offline cattoy

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2011, 07:02:47 AM »
The simple reason that firearms and D&D are oil and water is that we know too much about them.

When you're dealing with magic and monsters, then you're free to design whatever checks and balances make the game fun. You don't have to care one damn bit about realism or physics because they don't apply to magic and monsters.

But when you add things like gunpowder to the mix, then you're stuck with problems like people using bags of holding and invisibility/teleport to dump tons of gunpowder under the butt of a BBEG and blow him to kingdom come. And other, even worse things. Players are innovative enough to wreck anything you put in front of them with less powerful tools than gunpowder and steel. Why make it any easier?

On top of that, we have metric buttloads of info about ballistics, making it just about impossible to implement guns in any way that doesn't get people up in arms about getting this wrong or shafting that or making these too uber...

None of that applies to magic.

Offline littha

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2011, 07:05:21 AM »
But when you add things like gunpowder to the mix, then you're stuck with problems like people using bags of holding and invisibility/teleport to dump tons of gunpowder under the butt of a BBEG and blow him to kingdom come. And other, even worse things. Players are innovative enough to wreck anything you put in front of them with less powerful tools than gunpowder and steel. Why make it any easier?

People do the same with explosive runes, delayed blast fireballs and holy berry bombs. I would also argue that these are more powerful than gunpowder rather than less.

Offline veekie

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2011, 07:17:35 AM »
Actually it can be arguable that people are familiar with how they seem to work, rather than how they actually do. The myth of bullets punching through armor and obsoleting armored warfare is one(for one, kelvar is basically modern leather armor, and it works just fine against small-arms).

Complexity of crafts presents a further step. Many modern technologies are in their basic form, not that hard to make. Steam engines were around since Ancient Greece, and so were incendiaries, while explosives were discovered before the Dark Ages. The problem was that it takes someone to make the connection between two seemingly unrelated pieces of knowledge, apply them together and you get a new piece of technology. Practicality doesn't seem to come into the picture, you just need the right kind of nutter and the application to bring it to at least artisan-knowledge(because mass production and standardization hadn't been invented yet).

The translation of damage over to game equivalents is another, since realistic armor tends to be more damage mitigation and critical prevention than outright deflection(again, save for small arms, which can be mitigated to zero). Bombs and grenades likewise, we consider them insta-kill or highly damaging(and indeed they are, to most people, who're made of meat). However, in game, characters have enough health to survive brief immersion in lava, which is arguably even more debilitating. Contrasting yield against objects would do better.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 07:19:59 AM by veekie »
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Offline caelic

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2011, 11:31:28 AM »
Actually it can be arguable that people are familiar with how they seem to work, rather than how they actually do. The myth of bullets punching through armor and obsoleting armored warfare is one(for one, kelvar is basically modern leather armor, and it works just fine against small-arms).




Waitwaitwait...that's not true?  Next you're going to tell me that a katana can't cleave right through tank armor!   ;)


Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2011, 11:47:17 AM »
Actually it can be arguable that people are familiar with how they seem to work, rather than how they actually do. The myth of bullets punching through armor and obsoleting armored warfare is one(for one, kelvar is basically modern leather armor, and it works just fine against small-arms).
Armor was obsoleted by firearms, hence the couple of hundred years with virtually no armor. They could punch through the plate armor. Modern Kevlar armor is specifically designed to handle bullets, thus it is the back and forth between defenses and attacks. Kevlar is virtually useless against a baseball bat because of the way it works.

Offline veekie

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2011, 12:03:31 PM »
Not quite. Kelvar was about as effective against bullets as chain was against arrows, it'd slow them down some, but you're still going to be hurt. Plate(breast or full) armor stopped bullets just fine until the invention of armor piercing bullets, which showed up well after armor was phased out. Bows and crossbows in fact, punched through armor just fine with pile arrows.

The reason it phased out was simpler. Cost and the rise of combat styles requiring higher mobility, range and vision, along with greater role of low cost soldiers(since gunners were far cheaper to train than archers, it really took off). A guy in plate armor wouldn't mind one bullet, or even three. The tenth bullet would probably have knocked him out through the armor anyway.

EDIT: Wikipedia to the rescue
Quote
In the early years of low velocity firearms, full suits of armour, or breast plates actually stopped bullets fired from a modest distance. Crossbow bolts, if still used, would seldom penetrate good plate, nor would any bullet unless fired from close range. In effect, rather than making plate armour obsolete, the use of firearms stimulated the development of plate armour into its later stages. For most of that period, it allowed horsemen to fight while being the targets of defending arquebuseers without being easily killed. Full suits of armour were actually worn by generals and princely commanders right up to the second decade of the 18th century. It was the only way they could be mounted and survey the overall battlefield with safety from distant musket fire.

Gradually starting in the mid-16th century, one plate element after another was discarded to save weight for foot soldiers.

Though the age of the knight was over, armour continued to be used in many capacities. Soldiers in the American Civil War bought iron and steel vests from peddlers (both sides had considered but rejected body armour for standard issue). The effectiveness of the vests varied widely- some successfully deflected bullets and saved lives, but others were poorly made and resulted in tragedy for the soldiers. In any case the vests were abandoned by many soldiers due to their weight on long marches as well as the stigma they got for being cowards from their fellow troops.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 12:16:07 PM by veekie »
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Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2011, 12:22:25 PM »
Actually it can be arguable that people are familiar with how they seem to work, rather than how they actually do. The myth of bullets punching through armor and obsoleting armored warfare is one(for one, kelvar is basically modern leather armor, and it works just fine against small-arms).
Armor was obsoleted by firearms, hence the couple of hundred years with virtually no armor. They could punch through the plate armor. Modern Kevlar armor is specifically designed to handle bullets, thus it is the back and forth between defenses and attacks. Kevlar is virtually useless against a baseball bat because of the way it works.
'

Actually that's not quite true: Heavy cavalry, the main armoured force of medieval times, were made obsolete by pikemen. Light cavalry could, for a long time, not reliably be stopped with firearms, because fire was too erratic and volleys too few and far between. Hence armoured pikemen were still present on the battlefield until the 17th or early 18th century. Normal infantry never got much armour, except for maybe a brigantine or some leather and chain parts, because armour was REALLY expensive. Only when muskets became accurate and fast enough to stop a cavalry charge (while the infantry line was intact) then pikemen were no longer needed, and armour finally vanished from the battlefields. However, while it lasted it WAS always capable of providing protection against firearms - the trouble was the amount of weight the armoured units had to pack on to stay competitive. The ornate plate armour worn by generals (mostly to look good) in the 16th and 17th century, for instance, probably about doubled in weight over the course of that practice..

Offline Agrippa

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #128 on: January 17, 2012, 05:24:13 PM »
I think it's mostly out of the fear that guns, especially modern ones, will some how upset the pseudo-medieval nature that D&D settings are assumed to have. Of course this overlooks that fact that having advanced plate armor demolishes any truely or even pseudo-medieval quality to any setting just as much. There's also the fear that firearms, unless given severe disadvantages and make particularly rare, would make classes such as fighter, ranger and paladin overpowered. Mostly these are old school player concerns. Examples of whatI'm talking about can be found here. It's not a universal fear, but it is present.

Offline veekie

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #129 on: January 17, 2012, 09:27:49 PM »
That is a concern yeah, though with the way D&D damage formulas work, any mechanically powered weapon is destined to be inferior in the long run unless you can somehow apply strength(high caliber Mighty guns?) or its just that powerful(in which case it might as well be a wandslinger, or hitting on touches).

The hostility to firearms includes firearms as a modern weapon, with modern effectiveness, yet without considering similar accommodations made for stuff like Full Plate or crossbows. Like the magic vs mundane gap, swords vs guns is a matter of something few of us are personally familiar with, versus something we 'know' via the media(how effective guns and explosives are).
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
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Offline littha

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2012, 12:28:53 AM »
I would actually be interested to see what the effect of a modern sidearm would be on the later stages of full plate armor, i would have thought that a handgun round wouldn't penetrate plate steel, possibly even a small calibre rifle round.

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2012, 08:03:40 AM »
I would actually be interested to see what the effect of a modern sidearm would be on the later stages of full plate armor, i would have thought that a handgun round wouldn't penetrate plate steel, possibly even a small calibre rifle round.
If a handgun (.45 cal) at reasonable range can't penetrate a WW2 steel  helmet (see the instructional film linked to in this thread) then it most certainly can't penetrate a 3 mm thick breastplate. Against .30 cal rifle rounds armour doesn't stand a chance, I believe.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #132 on: January 18, 2012, 08:12:25 AM »
The hostility to firearms includes firearms as a modern weapon, with modern effectiveness, yet without considering similar accommodations made for stuff like Full Plate or crossbows.

Accommodations? What accommodations? First, crossbows were around much earlier than either of those, going back as far as the 4th century.

Second, full plate plainly sucks in D&D. It's too expensive to even afford at earlier levels, and then it limits your mobility so much that 99% of the time you're better off wearing lighter armor.

You all make it sound like fullplate is some "godmode" that allows a character to shrugg off anything, but it's just some extra AC points, while crippling your movement speed and severly limiting your Dex bonus to AC. Not to mention needing heavy armor proficiency, which only a few classes get. Why should guns get free tickets?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:16:22 AM by oslecamo »

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2012, 09:59:01 AM »
The hostility to firearms includes firearms as a modern weapon, with modern effectiveness, yet without considering similar accommodations made for stuff like Full Plate or crossbows.

You all make it sound like fullplate is some "godmode" that allows a character to shrugg off anything, but it's just some extra AC points, while crippling your movement speed and severly limiting your Dex bonus to AC. Not to mention needing heavy armor proficiency, which only a few classes get. Why should guns get free tickets?
Well, in D&D full plate is rather bad - at least when characters > lvl 1 are concerned. At level 1 fullplate is about right. IRL full plate IS a sort of god-mode, until some guy with warhammer comes along, or just a guy with a lasso and a "Katzbalger". Real full plate is pretty much impenetrable with a (one handed) sword, spear or other light weapon. And when manufactured from "modern" steel, you can even take a hike in it. (No, I'm not talking about the 1mm thin armours people wear for LARPs.) In fact I believe modern soldiers (with protective gear + pack) carry MORE weight around with them. I believe plate armour is actually usually lighter and more maneuverable than the common combination of hard stuffed gambeson (3-5kg)+long (knee length) chain tunic (15kg+) + brigantine (another 4-5kg), which was common for medieval mercenaries. At the same time, though, noone could afford it, and especially not afford to repair it, while it is comparatively cheap to repair chain and brigantine.

Now do note that the best full plate only came around once it was already obsolete, so there is no historical context in which this were true.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2012, 10:29:11 AM »
My point is, if fullplate costs proficiencies, loads of money, and then it only grants a few extra points of AC at a considerable mobility cost, people have no right to complain that gunpowder weapons also cost proficiency and loads of money for just a few more points of damage.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2012, 11:37:46 AM »
Quote from: SneeR
In reality, a breastplate could barely hold up to one shot of an early firearm, and then it was structurally compromised.
Untrue.  Do you know where the term "bullet proof" comes from?  1500's and 1600's armorers would shoot their newly made breastplates with a pistol, leaving a dent, thus the proof mark that the armor was sound.  Since it was make with a bullet, they started referring to the mark as a bullet proof.*

Old school muskets were really only useful in the hands of large groups of guys. It wasn't until we started rifling the barrels in the 19th century that they became accurate enough to use in smaller sizes. Before that, you basically had to hand hundreds of them over to a bunch of soldiers and have them all fire at once. Any individual skirmisher would likely do better with a bow (if he had the training).
Though this was true of outfitting an army (smooth-bore muskets were cheaper than rifled firearms), rifling has been around since the 14th Century.  Custom firearms (which all early examples were) could be made with rifling, if the buyer were willing to pay for it.  D&D characters are the epitome of people who could afford and demand custom weapons in this sense.

Also, a decent resource for early-era firearms would be the d20 Modern supplement 'd20 Past.'  It has stats for muskets and the like, though I don't recall how good they are (I do recall that they completely botched on the stats for a Mosin Nagant).

Quote
* Armor of proof is tested during the making with blows or shots from the strongest weapons of the time; if a weapon is listed, the armor does not claim to be proof against everything, only that it is proof up to that weapon's strength (eg pistol proof is not musket proof, but may be sword proof).
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 11:40:43 AM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2012, 11:39:15 AM »
My point is, if fullplate costs proficiencies, loads of money, and then it only grants a few extra points of AC at a considerable mobility cost, people have no right to complain that gunpowder weapons also cost proficiency and loads of money for just a few more points of damage.

Well, the thing is, noone in their right mind gets heavy armour proficiency unless they get it as a freeby, so if you want to make firearms even remotely usable, you have to turn them into simple or martial weapons, or at least something that some class gets as a freeby.

Alternatively, maybe just make a Musketeer base class that gets firearm, light martial weapon and light armour proficiency. Isn't there something like this already? You could also give the exotic proficiencies to the crappy swashbuckler (still won't make people take it :) ), or the far bettter Blade Bravo (or is there something else similar?) prestige class, because those are the closest thing to a musketeer. Blade Bravos are gnome only though, IIRC, so...

Offline SneeR

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2012, 04:28:47 PM »
Firearms are so easy to use on point-blank targets that all non-rapidfire iterations should be martial weapons.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2012, 05:50:33 PM »
Firearms are so easy to use on point-blank targets that all non-rapidfire iterations should be martial weapons.
It was already brought up that guns were easier to use than longbows though. In D&D that would make them simple weapons.

Offline SneeR

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2012, 07:47:07 PM »
Firearms are so easy to use on point-blank targets that all non-rapidfire iterations should be martial weapons.
It was already brought up that guns were easier to use than longbows though. In D&D that would make them simple weapons.
Incorrect; heavy maces are easier to use than rapiers, shortswords, slings, and longbows as long as you are strong enough to swing them, but are still martial weapons. Therefore, D&D precedence, however nonsensical, does not equate difficulty of use to proficiency type. In fact, it barely equates damage potential to proficiency type (I'm looking at you, morning star).

In my opinion, we must equate them to the most similar weapons, heavy crossbows. They are more complicated to use and do more damage than heavy crossbows, and should therefore be martial weapons.
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