Author Topic: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?  (Read 85937 times)

Offline dman11235

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #200 on: January 29, 2012, 03:14:56 PM »
I think you'd be better off just listing it by size, doing it like this.  So 30 ft up to Large, and then Large has 40, Gargantuan has 50, Huge has 60, and Colossal has 80?  Something like that?
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Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #201 on: January 30, 2012, 08:37:57 AM »
I think you'd be better off just listing it by size, doing it like this.  So 30 ft up to Large, and then Large has 40, Gargantuan has 50, Huge has 60, and Colossal has 80?  Something like that?
I want to avoid more tabular things people have to look up. Also... I think 80 isn't enough for colossal.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #202 on: January 30, 2012, 10:06:44 AM »
Well, then increase it more, I was just throwing out random numbers, essentially (30, 40 large, 50, 70, 90?  60, 90, 130? I don't think anything more than 40 for large would be good though).  BUt you'd have to look up reach anyways, right?  And what about something like the Roper, being medium and having 15' reach, does that grant 90' SA?  A human with Abberant Blood and Inhuman Reach, is that a medium with 60 range on them?  With reach, you can have a number of different values for the same creature, with size, you have 5 different values, and will likely only use three of them (medium and smaller, large, and colossal).

And actually, you already are doing it by size.  You just added extra words in "reach of that size category".
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Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #203 on: January 30, 2012, 11:06:11 AM »
Well, then increase it more, I was just throwing out random numbers, essentially (30, 40 large, 50, 70, 90?  60, 90, 130? I don't think anything more than 40 for large would be good though).  BUt you'd have to look up reach anyways, right?  And what about something like the Roper, being medium and having 15' reach, does that grant 90' SA?  A human with Abberant Blood and Inhuman Reach, is that a medium with 60 range on them?  With reach, you can have a number of different values for the same creature, with size, you have 5 different values, and will likely only use three of them (medium and smaller, large, and colossal).

And actually, you already are doing it by size.  You just added extra words in "reach of that size category".

Yes, I am doing by size, because I'm using the standard reach for the size category - as in, I was just looking for a convenient number to multiply. But I want something that can be easily deducted once you know the size category.
4x standard would  mean 30(medium+smaller, default), 40(large), 60(huge), 80(garg), 120(colossal and larger).

It doesn't really make any difference. In my games I already modify melee reach based on weapon size, so I often deal with the size categories and their native reach.

Offline FatR

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #204 on: February 07, 2012, 11:17:14 AM »
     There are 2 points to consider about firearms.

    1)In the real world firearms past the earliest stages of development were pretty much superior to any muscle-powered weapon by a large margin. Their effective range and penetrating power exceeded that of the best bows by several times, which easily trumped bow's nominal superiority in the rate of fire. Even in environments where no one wore armor, bows were swiftly relegated to weapons of hunting, stealth attacks and last chance after running out of gunpowder, after introduction of firearms.

    2)DnD is not the real world. Muscle-powered weapons are many times more effective, because people who decided most conflicts have muscles that are many times superior to anything seen in our reality. Monsters that can only be killed by these super-powerful heroes are abound. A stone giant or a middle-aged dragon have natural protection that is easily superior to any personal armor ever crafted on Earth. And may wear actual armor or magical forcefields on top on that. In this environment people (those with intelligence and resources to develop new weapons) likely will find very hard to care about firearms, leading to very stunted development.

    3)To reflect this, personally I feel that giving early firearms good initial damage, like 2d6 18-20/X2 for arquebuses and pistols, 2d10 17-20/X2 for large muskets, but keeping the reload time to a move action and one round respectively is about right. This will make them quite superior as far as low-level grunts are concerned, even an attractive option for a PC's sidearm, but once you start becoming superhero, you better pick a bow, because reload times make them incompatible with just about anything that makes archery worthwhile.

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #205 on: February 07, 2012, 11:45:40 AM »
     There are 2 points to consider about firearms.

    1)In the real world firearms past the earliest stages of development were pretty much superior to any muscle-powered weapon by a large margin. Their effective range and penetrating power exceeded that of the best bows by several times, which easily trumped bow's nominal superiority in the rate of fire. Even in environments where no one wore armor, bows were swiftly relegated to weapons of hunting, stealth attacks and last chance after running out of gunpowder, after introduction of firearms.
Ummm... no. This thread has gone to great lengths to establish the strenghts and weaknesses of early firearms. Being flat-out better was not one of them. In fact, Crossbows were probably better for a long time - more accurate, greater effective range, same or similar penetration.
Quote
    2)DnD is not the real world. Muscle-powered weapons are many times more effective, because people who decided most conflicts have muscles that are many times superior to anything seen in our reality. Monsters that can only be killed by these super-powerful heroes are abound. A stone giant or a middle-aged dragon have natural protection that is easily superior to any personal armor ever crafted on Earth. And may wear actual armor or magical forcefields on top on that. In this environment people (those with intelligence and resources to develop new weapons) likely will find very hard to care about firearms, leading to very stunted development.
I disagree here, too. With those superheroes running about it's quite simple to make a firearm that's not portable by a regular human, but quite portable for a superhuman hero. These obviously would keep up in the damage race with muscle powered weapons. The disadvantage is that, like a Mighty bow, you keep having to buy a new weapon. In any case, high damage/attack isn't an area where ranged weapons excel.
Quote
    3)To reflect this, personally I feel that giving early firearms good initial damage, like 2d6 18-20/X2 for arquebuses and pistols, 2d10 17-20/X2 for large muskets, but keeping the reload time to a move action and one round respectively is about right. This will make them quite superior as far as low-level grunts are concerned, even an attractive option for a PC's sidearm, but once you start becoming superhero, you better pick a bow, because reload times make them incompatible with just about anything that makes archery worthwhile.
This is a valid option, and indeed one that was pursued in this thread so far.  The numbers might still need some tweaking. Since it's not the real world, I have no problems with feats that make reload times quicker.

Offline Childe

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #206 on: February 07, 2012, 11:51:26 AM »
    3)To reflect this, personally I feel that giving early firearms good initial damage, like 2d6 18-20/X2 for arquebuses and pistols, 2d10 17-20/X2 for large muskets, but keeping the reload time to a move action and one round respectively is about right. This will make them quite superior as far as low-level grunts are concerned, even an attractive option for a PC's sidearm, but once you start becoming superhero, you better pick a bow, because reload times make them incompatible with just about anything that makes archery worthwhile.

(Quick) Draw and drop would love this.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #207 on: February 07, 2012, 12:04:38 PM »
It works with ranged weapons, what with enchanted ammo, though costly in the long run of course. Have a bunch of relatively cheap guns preloaded with a single shot worth of enchanted ammo. Draw shoot drop.
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Offline FatR

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #208 on: February 07, 2012, 12:28:41 PM »

Ummm... no. This thread has gone to great lengths to establish the strenghts and weaknesses of early firearms. Being flat-out better was not one of them. In fact, Crossbows were probably better for a long time - more accurate, greater effective range, same or similar penetration.
     The thing is... Firearms started displacing crossbows and relegating them to hunting weapons very quickly precisely because of better penetration/stopping effect. By the end of the first quarter of 16th century, as evidenced by the Battle of Pavia and others, arquebusiers already largely displaced non-firearms missile troops in the best European armies. In Japan - where armor was both less common amond soldiers and usually inferior in quality, compared to European standards, arquebuse displaced bow as the main missile weapon and changed actual infantry tactics within less than 35 years after their introduction by Eupopean traders. 

I disagree here, too. With those superheroes running about it's quite simple to make a firearm that's not portable by a regular human, but quite portable for a superhuman hero.
     Yes, but where is the impetus for doing so? Very early firearms still are unvieldy and unreliable, when the main deciding factor of battles is the difference in superhuman abilties, their advantages are harder to see. In addition, if the arsenal of magic weapons is replenished very slowly (which is true for pre 3.X DnD editions), you'll have the cirle of "magic bows are relatively common because heroes of the past were bowmen -> heroes of the present aim to become bowmen because magic bows are relatively common".

    While this will not totally (or even necessarily) arrest the development of firearms, it quite possibly might do so, providing a suitable explanation for their relatively limited use. Particularly in combination with common explanations for DnD's medieval stasis in general, such as regularity of civilzation-destroying catastrophes and wars, or the best minds being devoted to the study of magic.


Offline dman11235

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #209 on: February 07, 2012, 12:59:52 PM »
In D&D, magic items are easily made, and in most settings assumed to exist as you need them.  It's a trivial matter to make a new one.  You go to a magic shop, ask for your weapon to be enhanced, and wait a bit, boom, you have an enhanced weapon.  Artifacts, however, are not.  But artifacts aren't exactly common, so those don't affect how common fighting styles are.

But you are correct when you say that they should behave differently than bows and crossbows.  BOws should behave differently than crossbows as well.  Where you're wrong is the power level.  They should be as powerful, just in a different way, as the others.

EDIT: this is assuming that they exist.  If they don't, then they just don't exist.  I've laid out my argument for why they should exist and what role they should fill.
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Offline FatR

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #210 on: February 07, 2012, 01:08:36 PM »
In D&D, magic items are easily made, and in most settings assumed to exist as you need them. 
     Please do not confuse 3.X/4E with DnD in general. Even in 3.X there are settings where magic items are not supposed to be easily accessible, such as Midnight, IIRC.

It's a trivial matter to make a new one.  You go to a magic shop, ask for your weapon to be enhanced, and wait a bit, boom, you have an enhanced weapon.
      And even in default DnD 3.X you aquite often only have magic items easily accessible because you can craft them yourself. I've only seen outright magic shops in the games where GM clearly decided that PCs already broke the game, so what's the point of not having them. Otherwise people who can craft tend to feel that their XP is more precious that your money and/or only are willing to sell to major allies and supporters.


Offline veekie

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #211 on: February 07, 2012, 01:08:46 PM »
Quote
The thing is... Firearms started displacing crossbows and relegating them to hunting weapons very quickly precisely because of better penetration/stopping effect.
False, as established MUCH earlier in the thread.
Common infantry have no better armor than leather and if they were lucky, chain. Firearms rips those to shreds, and so do crossbows. However, firearms require less physical ability and training to load and fire rapidly than crossbows do, especially once cartridges were invented. The majority of any army is common infantry. Why outfit your entire army with weapons that work best against maybe 10% of the enemy army? Lightly armored units were also more mobile than proper armor, which is again, significant for infantry due to positioning advantages.
Just think on the physics of the matter. A musket ball is a ball of round or elongated lead. When it strikes a hard, curved steel surface(which all plate armors are, because they're made to deflect blows), the kinetic energy first goes into deforming the bullet itself, then generally glancing off as its vector of motion is partially canceled. Even modern helmets can stop modern bullets. A centimeter of steel certainly would.
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Offline FatR

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #212 on: February 07, 2012, 01:32:09 PM »
False, as established MUCH earlier in the thread.
     Then it is established wrongly.

Common infantry have no better armor than leather and if they were lucky, chain.
     Excuse me, but... lolwut?
http://www.google.ru/search?q=landsknecht&hl=ru&newwindow=1&prmd=imvnsb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_WgxT4uAM-jR4QSK7-nhBA&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=909

    Breastplates, breastplates everywhere. And against plate armor firearms had an advantage not only in carrying more cynetic energy - compared to a common 45-kg-or-less crossbow - but in transferring more of it to target (contrary to your argument, lead bullets were not nearly as prone to sliding off armor's curves, compared to crossbow bolts - physics work for everyone equally). More than that, firearms wounds were much harder to treat by that time's medicine.
 
However, firearms require less physical ability and training to load and fire rapidly than crossbows do, especially once cartridges were invented. The majority of any army is common infantry. Why outfit your entire army with weapons that work best against maybe 10% of the enemy army?
      That's the equivalent of asking "why make anti-tank weapons the centerpiece of your ground armament system, if enemy tanks are far less numerous than infantry soldiers?" 

     I admit though, that my knowledge is rather superificial. So, if you can provide some examples of crossbowmen playing a greater role than firearms-using soldiers in European battles past the date I named (first quarter of 16th century), I'll admit that I was wrong..



Offline Halinn

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #213 on: February 07, 2012, 01:56:59 PM »
The Landsknechte were the quintessential mercenary units, not the common infantrymen. The infantrymen were more likely to be conscripted peasants.

The centerpiece of modern ground armaments is, in fact, the rifle. This is, as you might be aware, more useful against infantry soldiers than against tanks. An army of course includes a good amount of weapons to deal with tanks, as medieval armies were able to deal with knights, but if you have every soldier carry a rocket launcher (halberd), you have problems dealing with infantry.

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #214 on: February 07, 2012, 02:22:06 PM »
Crossbow bolts are shaped, and when penetrating armor, the important factor is force per square inch. A hardened steel tip has a higher chance to penetrate armor than a soft deformable projectile, as the projectile flattens, decreasing the pressure, and then caroms off.

Crossbows do NOT make a greater role despite being more effective at piercing armor until high power rifles were invented, the thing was the change in tactical setup.

For some perspective(grossly simplified, and varies by region of course)
Early eras had infantry dominated warfare. You used loose formations of of individually strong warriors fighting against similarly loose formations. There was a low focus on occupying ground. Real armor and longer blades were not available yet, but it worked well with difficult terrain(and still does, its still used for urban warfare).

Then formation warfare turned up. Phalanxes and formation fighting lets them take on loose and ill disciplined formations at low losses. They were very good at claiming ground and holding it, plus greater use was made of inexperienced warriors. You generally had rookies acting as light infantry to take the brunt of first contact, and better equipped veterans acting as piledrivers to punch through. This was slow(tactically speaking, strategically they moved incredibly fast with marches), however, and eventually gave way to...

Cavalry, specifically heavy cavalry, with good equipment(this meant only nobility need apply). This went somewhat back to the elite unit model, where a number of seriously expensive units were backed by massed infantry to hold ground. You used heavy cavalry to go all over the battlefield breaking up formations and heavy infantry(two handed swords etc) to deal with pikes.

Then came archery in warfare(it existed for a while already, but there was a low focus level on missile warfare, since it was difficult to train), particularly with massed archery volleys. These were great against pretty much everything but lighter cavalry(which could close the distance. Pile arrow volleys could break heavy infantry or heavy cavalry formations if they hit, and being light infantry, archer units were more mobile than most infantry. This led to the rock-paper-scissors of combat, light cavalry against archers, heavy infantry to counter cavalry and screen archers from close range retaliation, and archers to deal with heavy infantry.

Then came the crossbow, which changed ranged warfare by making it much easier to get into. While possessed of a lower rate of fire than bows, they had comparable penetration and you could have cheap light infantry that could trash costly heavy infantry. At this point, armor proper became more of a matter for leaders and other noble units, warfare was mainly peasants vs peasants.

With heavy infantry on its way out, you then see the development of anti-light armored warfare. This made it practical for things like the rapier(made for street fighting) and the gun, because for common infantry, armor was getting lighter and lighter, and they worked just as well as a crossbow against those. The reverse was true for heavy infantry and commanders, plate armor was designed to counter guns specifically, and got thicker and thicker as muzzle velocity went up.

It goes further of course, but most people are more familiar with modern warfare.
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Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #215 on: February 08, 2012, 01:10:02 PM »

Ummm... no. This thread has gone to great lengths to establish the strenghts and weaknesses of early firearms. Being flat-out better was not one of them. In fact, Crossbows were probably better for a long time - more accurate, greater effective range, same or similar penetration.
     The thing is... Firearms started displacing crossbows and relegating them to hunting weapons very quickly precisely because of better penetration/stopping effect. By the end of the first quarter of 16th century, as evidenced by the Battle of Pavia and others, arquebusiers already largely displaced non-firearms missile troops in the best European armies. In Japan - where armor was both less common amond soldiers and usually inferior in quality, compared to European standards, arquebuse displaced bow as the main missile weapon and changed actual infantry tactics within less than 35 years after their introduction by Eupopean traders. 
Alright, you have a point there. The Japanese were VERY quick to adapt to Arquebus warfare, but even so, while Oda Nobunaga basically designed a volley firing drill with loaders and shooters, in many conflicts the firearms were not the decisive factor: Rather, the strong melee power of Japanese infantry was, combined with the speed of their charges, which scared the enemies into quick retreats. (Repeadedly during the Japanese invasion of Korea in the 1580s and 90s). Only in special cases was arquebus fire crucial. This particular conflict also showed that at the time the largely archer equipped Chinese forces and the Koreans with only few firearms rather depended mostly on an efficient and tactically sound commander than their individual firepower. In fact, Korean composite bows outranged arquebuses of the time, but they were only brought to bear poorly during the initial rush-victories the Japanese enjoyed. At the same time, Korean cannon equipped ships made short work of the Japanese navy, because the Japanese thought that the best way to fight on the sea was also to use arquebuses and then board.

So this period is actually much like D&D could be: With firearms and bows coexisting. Firearms make massed infantry strong, while heroes probably are better off with bows due to RoF issues. It would be too difficult to model the inherent inaccuracy in a smooth bore arquebus or musket, so we have only RoF to nerf them, like the sadly underrepresented heavy crossbows. (Who do actually become quite obsolete.)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #216 on: February 08, 2012, 02:31:21 PM »
Then came the crossbow, which changed ranged warfare by making it much easier to get into. While possessed of a lower rate of fire than bows, they had comparable penetration and you could have cheap light infantry that could trash costly heavy infantry. At this point, armor proper became more of a matter for leaders and other noble units, warfare was mainly peasants vs peasants.

That's... Not freaking true at all. Crossbows were created way back in the 4th century b.c. Ancient greeks used them! After that we still had plenty of centuries of development of both heavy infantry, armor and heavy cavarly, and more than a millenium before gunpowder guns even started to show up in battlefields.

And, with all due respect, screw your " firearms require less physical ability and training to load and fire rapidly than crossbows do" lies you keep repeating, the very first crossbow around was the "belly-bow". It was designed to be reloaded simply by bending over it with the help of your body and leg strenght, thus allowing it to store much more energy than a bow, that can only rely on arm-strenght.

Firearms meanwhile fizzled or exploded in your face is if you as much screwed one of the multiple loading steps, meaning it always demanded much more training than the crossbow's "push lever back, put new bolt, aim, shoot".
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 02:39:01 PM by oslecamo »

Offline veekie

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #217 on: February 09, 2012, 02:11:21 AM »
^^
It was when they were popularised, PC available =/= army available.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #218 on: February 09, 2012, 02:01:43 PM »
Crossbows are first reported used in the 4th century b.c.

Gunpowder's earliest report is in the 8th century. Not weapons, simply somebody somewhere managing to get a crude exploding powder.

Guess what? Still over a millenium of diference, not even taking the account of experimental crossbows before they started to be widely used in battle.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:03:50 PM by oslecamo »

Offline veekie

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Re: Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?
« Reply #219 on: February 10, 2012, 01:34:45 AM »
Again, still irrelevant to the matter(I did say its grossly simplified and region dependent), the issue was that you have weapons that were ideal for each era of warfare, and gunnery itself only became particularly effective with the decline of armor. Crossbows and bows had similar offensive qualities, but different preparation qualities(bows required professional archers and years to build musculature, crossbows can be trained from drafted peasants). Crossbows brought ranged superiority to the masses, but it also required mass production(which wasn't a given) to be really useful(and there was political opposition against them).

Take ancient China for example, gunpowder weapons were developed, flourished briefly....and then left to languish for a few centuries due to lack of use. The initial blossoming was the effectiveness of bombards against fortifications, and the lightly armored nature of early oriental warfare, plus many of these were augmented arrows. Heck, they even had repeating crossbows. An era of peace left them hopelessly out of date by the time they were needed once more.

In Europe, the Dark Ages had a decline in technology, but warfare and traders led to imported weapons and techniques from other regions. Steam power was already around as a toy by ancient Greece, but it took much later for it to transition into a means of providing power.

Short version: Technology is not always progressive. It rises and falls based on effects of environment and culture.
Gunpowder did not displace archery or armor until warfare itself changed to an environment that suited gunpowder weapons. It might have developed much differently  if for example, warfare was based on small, fast moving units of well equipped professional warriors, focusing on its anti-fortification qualities rather than its efficiency at killing lightly armored infantry. Or they might have developed further explosive based weapons rather than projectile based ones.
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